first problem i probably could have done in 11th/12th grade.
now i would need a book.
2nd problem i can do now, and tangent of theta i learned about in… 11th grade i believe.
[quote]AgentOrange wrote:
jtrinsey wrote:
I think a big part of the problem is the way math, and many other subjects, are taught in American schools. Much more time is spent memorizing and learning what is going to be on the test, rather than trying to gain a thorough understanding of a particular problem. I bet American students cover more topics than Asian students, yet their understanding of each topic is comparatively very poor.
On the contrary, I think memorizing a vast amount of material without understanding it is a trademark of school systems in China and India. It’s a sad fact that more and more material is being pushed into the same 12 years of education.
As for the original article, this seems like a publicity stunt more than anything. Just because the Chinese problem is a complicated-looking shape doesn’t mean it’s insanely hard.
In any case, if I had to test a high school graduate’s math skills to see whether they deserve to enter engineering or the sciences, I would test calculus, not geometry. [/quote]
Interesting. I don’t really know that much about other schooling systems, just from what a couple friends of mine who moved to the US from Taiwan have told me. Could’ve just been their school though.
Uh… I believe I did this in math in sophomore year… of high school.
Seriously, didn’t take me long. The first one had some bitchy parts, but nothing harder than my normal math homework.
Which reminds me, I’ve gotta go do my math homework…
Been teaching math for many years.
If we gave problems like that to the kids in a public school:
(1) Mommy and Daddy call the Principal.
(2) Principal tells you to ‘lighten up’. If you don’t, you get reprimanded.
(3) If you stick to your ‘guns’, parents sue and/or you get fired as a troublemaker.
(4) Principal changes the grade, so Charlie can play in the big game on Friday night.
Teaching dilemma: If you want to teach good kids, you have to teach private school and get low pay. If you want to put a roof over the head of your wife and kids, have to teach publics and teach kids who are filthy and/or stoners.
Shoulda been an actuary, damn it!!
first problem? I tutor 14 year olds to do it!
second?! that’s a tricky bitch. it’s loooong. You need to conceptually see how to use the information given. Mathematically speaking its pretty easy, no complex proofs or anything!
I say this… but i’m 2nd year maths student so.
ha.
oh the joys…
Much ado about nothing.
They could have a curved line with three humps in it (that’s a technical term), give the student the function and tell them to find the area under the curve, the maximums and minimums, and the points of inflection.
Then tell them to do the same without a calculator or an integral.
Truthfully, that would test math ability that’s two or three steps higher than basic geometry, but it doesn’t “look” nearly as hard as plain-jane geometry does.
[quote]rmccart1 wrote:
I don’t really see why they chose a geometry question. It seems that geometry is less universally applicable than algebra or calculus.[/quote]
Because multi-variable calculus is geometrically based. And you only learn algebra in order to be able to do geometry.
Last time I checked, I did some form of geometry in EVERY one of my classes.
First problem would have been a question in entry level calculus. If you were AP, you did it in 11th grade. Otherwise, you did it your senior year in high school or first year in college.
The second problem (the triangle) would have been a regents 1 question. As in 8th grade for honors, 9th grade for others.
Aparently education in the UK has taken a sad turn. Not sure what the higher education system looks like, but I was thinking about a semester abroad in Ireland. Might be something worth looking into.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Been teaching math for many years.
If we gave problems like that to the kids in a public school:
(1) Mommy and Daddy call the Principal.
(2) Principal tells you to ‘lighten up’. If you don’t, you get reprimanded.
(3) If you stick to your ‘guns’, parents sue and/or you get fired as a troublemaker.
(4) Principal changes the grade, so Charlie can play in the big game on Friday night.
Teaching dilemma: If you want to teach good kids, you have to teach private school and get low pay. If you want to put a roof over the head of your wife and kids, have to teach publics and teach kids who are filthy and/or stoners.
Shoulda been an actuary, damn it!!
[/quote]
You should move to Colorado where we have special programs for advanced kids. Parents, and I am such a parent, expect the teachers to be hard. It’s also not necessarily true that private schools are better, and in fact may be worse given the “rich kid” mentally.
Had a friend, biochem major, who taught chemistry in a private school. Little rich girl decided to be a little troublemaker and made a huge mess in the lab. My friend told her to clean it up. Little rich girl refused. Parents were called. Parents said that “my daughter is not a made.”
Principal made my friend apologize to the little rich girl. My friend decided to go to law school and apply the analytical skills from her science background to tax law.
Go study for the FSA exams. There’s still time to be an actuary. I hear that’s a great career.
[quote]nephorm wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Doesn’t look that hard. Just tedious. Basic geometry. People use that stuff every day.
I agree. Also, the second question is trivial.[/quote]
But I think that was the point.
First of all, the 1st question is easy if you know the notation, just long. Second, if you know any linear algebra question 1 is a joke. The second question is a joke for anyone with a grade 7 education.
I also remember in high school that we had an honors math test (not for entry but for scholarship) and the questions were way harder… so that test is pretty reasonable.
Math is VERY important, but I guess I’m biased as I’m an engineer.
[quote]deapee wrote:
I didn’t see the point in high school, I didn’t see the point in college, and I don’t see the point of that now. Last time I used pythagoreans theorem was 1999.
[/quote]
Obviously, you’re not an engineer.
Pat yourself in the back.
[quote]Ren wrote:
All I have to say is wow. Does anyone have a college entry math question for the states? I know I had to take a math placement exam when I did my orientation for college but I can’t remember for the life of me how difficult it was.
I think I might have been able to answer that problem when I first went to college, not anymore though.[/quote]
While the question may be more difficult, only a fraction of the total Chinese population is college educated. Chinese universities have a HUGE pool to draw on compared to U.S. universities.
If they can only accept 1% of their total applicants, extremely difficult tests are warranted to try to narrow the field.
In the U.S. there are universities that set equivalent or higher standards. We just don’t hear about it because the metrics are defined in different manners. Additionally, if one desires to get a college education acceptance is almost guaranteed so long as one is willing to go to a less “prestigious” school.
[quote]deapee wrote:
I didn’t see the point in high school, I didn’t see the point in college, and I don’t see the point of that now. Last time I used pythagoreans theorem was 1999.
So the chinese are better at solving stupid equations that 1% of the worldwide population needs to know how to solve. 3/4ths of that 1% are the people that write the books.[/quote]
While it may not be necessary in a hunter gatherer sense to understand “stupid equations”, equations are necessary to understand the world around us. By understanding the world, we have dramatically enhanced our standard of living.
Do you enjoy cars? Computers? Good food? Free time? All of these are direct derivatives our understanding of the world around us that “stupid equations” have granted us.
If math isn’t your thing, that’s fine. Being ignorant of its impact on all of human society? No.
[quote]pookie wrote:
blooey wrote:
If everyone gets everything right on an entranace exam that’s supposed to differentiate students, what’s the point?
It’s a bit scary to think that students applying to a university in the UK would fail the second problem.
[/quote]
Isn’t it?
I look at that, and get the cold sweats.
Also, university on the whole is a different deal gere. It is more about where you go, rather than the course.
Oxford, cambridge, Manchester, bath, and the rest of the old and “red brick” uni’s are a type apart.
Any competent 9th grader would consider question 2 to be a handout.
I’m not ignorant of math’s impact on the human society one bit and claiming that I am is ridiculous. You’re right, the problems aren’t stupid, but how you gather that I have no respect for math from one statement is.
As far as math not being my thing, what’s that have to do with me thinking the questions are pointless for 99% of the population to learn?
I took Geometry, Algebra II, Trig & Pre Calc, and Calculus in high school. In college, I took College Algebra, College Trig, Calc I and Calc II…and wasn’t anywhere near a math major – I was in Computer Information Technology. Math has always been my favorite subject. Just because I like it doesn’t mean that I think everyone needs to learn things that a very small percentage of people should.
And if someone does happen to be bad at math, which a good bit of people are, because math takes a certain thinking process that some can’t get, that doesn’t mean that it’s ok to belittle them for not knowing certain math-related things.
That article(not op) is further dumb ass stereotyping as to why people think Americans are dumber than other countries. For a general entry level exam into a college, that question might be hard specially for your Average liberal arts majors.(All 9th grade calculas class takers who went to private school, I SAID AVERAGE please try to understand that not everybody is as privelaged)
For the average teenager going to college for science and engineering it might be a slightly tough question but they can answer. The article states they are giving out a prize for it, which means not EVERY chinese kid in college can answer the question.
Somebody please tell the world that every country sends their students to America for a reason.
fortunately, the Chinese are poor as fuck and we can harness their abilities for pennies on the dollar.
I think a harder question would have been to prove that x^n + y^n = z^n has no integer solutions for x, y, and z, given that n>2. Yeah, that would take a while.
[quote]HardcoreHorn wrote:
I think a harder question would have been to prove that x^n + y^n = z^n has no integer solutions for x, y, and z, given that n>2. Yeah, that would take a while.[/quote]
Gee, do you think?