Chicago Bans, and Gets Sued

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I’m not really sure that the state not recongnizing gay marriage is equal to, or comparable to, enslaving people.[/quote]

That’s because it isn’t. Not even remotely. State not recognizing, arranging, ordering, and promoting a private and individual relationship? Well, we keep hearing how it’s a private expression of an individual’s rights…So, it’s only appropriate that the government not recognize it. It’s a private act without critical and irreplaceable implications for society as a whole. The government is presently treating it as a private expression, by not recognizing it.

Compare that to slavery? Give me a break.[/quote]

It is not a comparable evil to slavery, but it is a comparable evil to prohibiting one race from marrying into another. And whether you couch it in terms of “recognizing” the marriage or “prohibiting it” is just a matter of semantics.

[quote]pat wrote:
sufiandy wrote:
I hope all this causes them to go out of business or at least lose a lot of money. Today obviously good for profits but its only 1 day.

You hope he goes out of business because he doesn’t like gay marriage? Oh brother. The man isn’t entitled to have his own opinion if it’s different than yours?[/quote]

You will find that sufiandy is a good representative of the far left’s love of political correctness. He, like a few others on this site march in lock step with every oppresive move that the left makes.

So, don’t be surprised by it.

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I’m not really sure that the state not recongnizing gay marriage is equal to, or comparable to, enslaving people.[/quote]

That’s because it isn’t. Not even remotely. State not recognizing, arranging, ordering, and promoting a private and individual relationship? Well, we keep hearing how it’s a private expression of an individual’s rights…So, it’s only appropriate that the government not recognize it. It’s a private act without critical and irreplaceable implications for society as a whole. The government is presently treating it as a private expression, by not recognizing it.

Compare that to slavery? Give me a break.[/quote]

That comparison is so blatantly offensive I am offended and I am not even black. It’s not even the same game much less ball park. I wonder why the NAACP doesn’t jump down their throats for making these ridiculous comparison.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I’m not really sure that the state not recongnizing gay marriage is equal to, or comparable to, enslaving people.[/quote]

That’s because it isn’t. Not even remotely. State not recognizing, arranging, ordering, and promoting a private and individual relationship? Well, we keep hearing how it’s a private expression of an individual’s rights…So, it’s only appropriate that the government not recognize it. It’s a private act without critical and irreplaceable implications for society as a whole. The government is presently treating it as a private expression, by not recognizing it.

Compare that to slavery? Give me a break.[/quote]

It is not a comparable evil to slavery, but it is a comparable evil to prohibiting one race from marrying into another. And whether you couch it in terms of “recognizing” the marriage or “prohibiting it” is just a matter of semantics.
[/quote]
No it’s not.

Male/ Male, or Female/ Female unions are not even remotely close to a male/ female pair-bond. I’d give 'em a legal union, but a marriage it is not, PERIOD.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I’m not really sure that the state not recongnizing gay marriage is equal to, or comparable to, enslaving people.[/quote]

That’s because it isn’t. Not even remotely. State not recognizing, arranging, ordering, and promoting a private and individual relationship? Well, we keep hearing how it’s a private expression of an individual’s rights…So, it’s only appropriate that the government not recognize it. It’s a private act without critical and irreplaceable implications for society as a whole. The government is presently treating it as a private expression, by not recognizing it.

Compare that to slavery? Give me a break.[/quote]

It is not a comparable evil to slavery, but it is a comparable evil to prohibiting one race from marrying into another. And whether you couch it in terms of “recognizing” the marriage or “prohibiting it” is just a matter of semantics.
[/quote]
No it’s not.

Male/ Male, or Female/ Female unions are not even remotely close to a male/ female pair-bond. I’d give 'em a legal union, but a marriage it is not, PERIOD.[/quote]

I’ll note several thing about your post.

First, it shows that “Marriage” is important to you, which means its is likely important to gay couples. Denying that status to gay couples is clearly a “harm” to them, otherwise this wouldn’t be an issue.

Second, its not for you to decide whether someone else gets equal protection under the law, just like gay couples can’t tell you not to marry a straight person for religious reasons or because they find it distasteful.

Third, I’ll wager that the reason you want to deny gay couples the legal authorization to marry are religious reasons. I’m not aware of any other reason to deny them. The establishment clause prevents–or should prevent–the government from acting for purely religious reasons.

Fourth, almost every state’s family code ties property and custody rights to something called “marriage.” Once this something called marriage is tied to a system of property rights, equal protection requires granting gay couples access to the system. The alternative is de-coupling property rights to a system called “marriage.” Thus, the state should either recognize marriage for gay couples or it should not recognize marriage for straight couples and recognize only “civil unions” for all and decouple the concept of marriage from property rights.

[quote]pat wrote:
You hope he goes out of business because he doesn’t like gay marriage? Oh brother.
[/quote]

I didn’t state my reason but feel free to make assumptions.

[quote]pat wrote:
The man isn’t entitled to have his own opinion if it’s different than yours?
[/quote]

Should I be entitled to my opinion? You seem to think I shouldn’t in this particular case because its different than yours.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:
The First Amendment clearly protects Chic-Fil-A and its President. Chicago and Rohm Emanuel will probably lose a civil suit under 42 U.S.C Section 1983, which provides a remedy for con-law violations committed by a City or a City’s official acting under color of state law because they are denying–or intend to deny–Chic-Fil-A business privileges expressly because of its protected activity. I think Chicago and Emanuel also have run afoul of the equal-protection clause, because they are treating Chic-Fil-A differently and denying–or intend to deny–it privileges and benefits based on a reason that does not further a legitimate state interest, i.e., for an irrational or arbitrary reason, and a reason that violates the First Amendment. [/quote]

Decent.

[quote]In the same way, the equal protection clause should prevent a state from denying same-sex couples the right to marry, because the reasons for denying them the right to marry are irrational and don’t further any legitimate state interest. The only justification for denying gay couples the right to marry are because the union supposedly runs afoul of traditional religious values, but the state does not have a legitimate role in imposing religious values on minority groups. This isn’t an issue that should be subject to a vote.

The bill of rights, including the 1st amendment (speech and expression, establishment clause, etc.) and 5th amendment (equal protection), are designed to protect unpopular minorities from the will of the majority and prevent the state from acting for illegitimate or irrational reasons, like imposing state-sponsored religious values on a minority, or denying people privileges and benefits for irrational, arbitrary, or impermissible reasons.

If you are standing up for Chic-Fil-A as a matter of principle, and believe in limited government, then you ought to be standing up for gay marriage for the exact same reason, and vis versa.

[/quote]

Then you went off track. Marriage is an ancient tradition, neither the Church nor the State has control over marriage, in that they cannot change the form or matter of marriage. Though I can agree somewhat with the idea that removing benefits for actual marriage is a good thing for small government, I can’t agree that there should be same-sex unions recognized as marriages, because one…marriage is between a man and a woman. And, that is the opposite of small government. A small government wouldn’t attempt to change something it had no power to change, such as the definition of marriage.

As I mentioned, neither the state or church has any ability to change this. But, I also disagree that benefiting marriage is for furthering religious values and nothing else, I don’t even see how the American state can do that, because I’m not aware of any Church, Rabbi, &c. that recognizes state marriage as a religious ceremony, at least in the United States. However, it furthers the legitimate state interest of creating babies (tax payers) and for making happy couples so that their civilization can flourish.

So, yes I do support Chic-fil-A on principle, but no I do not support making same-sex unions equal to marriage. I don’t think our government has the power, nor would a small government have the power or inclination to change the definition of marriage to include same-sex unions.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

I hope all this causes them to go out of business or at least lose a lot of money. Today obviously good for profits but its only 1 day.[/quote]

Look no further than this for the ideal paragon of left-wing tolerance and champion of freedom of conscience.

These Chik-fil-A supporters - nothing a few re-education camps wouldnt fix, aye Comrade Sufiandy?[/quote]

I say throw them in with the liberals comrade thunderbolt.

I wonder if sufiandy is actually pittbull.

Same logic.

Same snappy come backs.

Is that you Pitt?

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Deal? If we put it up to popular vote can both sides promise to take the results and STFU? Such a tired non-issue that is never going to have pro/con find middle ground.[/quote]

Makes sense. Let’s allow the majority to decide an issue that affects a minority. We probably should have done the same with slavery. Popular opinion does not equal justice. [/quote]

Yes, the Democrats probably didn’t want to put Slavery up for vote either. That’s how they made their money.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Marriage is an ancient tradition, neither the Church nor the State has control over marriage, in that they cannot change the form or matter of marriage.
[/quote]

Women as property is an ancient tradition, I agree that we (men) should have control over that half of the population, not the government.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

In the same way, the equal protection clause should prevent a state from denying same-sex couples the right to marry, because the reasons for denying them the right to marry are irrational and don’t further any legitimate state interest. The only justification for denying gay couples the right to marry are because the union supposedly runs afoul of traditional religious values, but the state does not have a legitimate role in imposing religious values on minority groups. This isn’t an issue that should be subject to a vote.[/quote]

Oh, and - incorrect. The relationships are not equal, and can’t be, from a public policy perspective. Don’t believe me? Take the two relationships and hold everythig constant - companionship, desire for mutual financial support, love, etc. - it’s all equal.

Except - one relationship produces children, the other doesn’t. And our entire system of laws is predicated on that w/r/t marriage and family relations policy.

And it most certainly furthers a state interest, maybe the state’s most important interest as it pertains to any kinds of social policy.

This has been covered countless times in PWI. But, to repeat, the idea that Equal Protection commands that gay marriage be recognized is premised on a fatal flaw - the relationships are not equal, and there is a rational basis for recognizing a distinction between them.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Sloth wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

I’m not really sure that the state not recongnizing gay marriage is equal to, or comparable to, enslaving people.[/quote]

That’s because it isn’t. Not even remotely. State not recognizing, arranging, ordering, and promoting a private and individual relationship? Well, we keep hearing how it’s a private expression of an individual’s rights…So, it’s only appropriate that the government not recognize it. It’s a private act without critical and irreplaceable implications for society as a whole. The government is presently treating it as a private expression, by not recognizing it.

Compare that to slavery? Give me a break.[/quote]

That comparison is so blatantly offensive I am offended and I am not even black. It’s not even the same game much less ball park. I wonder why the NAACP doesn’t jump down their throats for making these ridiculous comparison.[/quote]

Because the NAACP sits more to the left. However, most Black folks I’ve encountered take offense to the comment. Maybe it’s because they’re dull minded and backwards people (as the left-wing calls anyone who does not support same-sex marriage), but they do not support same-sex marriage. They are categorically one of the biggest supporters of traditional families.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

In the same way, the equal protection clause should prevent a state from denying same-sex couples the right to marry, because the reasons for denying them the right to marry are irrational and don’t further any legitimate state interest. The only justification for denying gay couples the right to marry are because the union supposedly runs afoul of traditional religious values, but the state does not have a legitimate role in imposing religious values on minority groups. This isn’t an issue that should be subject to a vote.[/quote]

Oh, and - incorrect. The relationships are not equal, and can’t be, from a public policy perspective. Don’t believe me? Take the two relationships and hold everythig constant - companionship, desire for mutual financial support, love, etc. - it’s all equal.

Except - one relationship produces children, the other doesn’t. And our entire system of laws is predicated on that w/r/t marriage and family relations policy.

And it most certainly furthers a state interest, maybe the state’s most important interest as it pertains to any kinds of social policy.

This has been covered countless times in PWI. But, to repeat, the idea that Equal Protection commands that gay marriage be recognized is premised on a fatal flaw - the relationships are not equal, and there is a rational basis for recognizing a distinction between them.[/quote]

I’m not all that concerned with where this has or hasn’t been debated. Also, so what if one relationship produces children and the other does not? Gay couples are not going to produce children whether they are married or not, so what interest is the state furthering by denying them the right to marry? The same number of children will be produced whether or not gay marriage is recognized.

Also, I am not sure the scrutiny to be applied is as low as “rational basis,” but I still don’t think it passes that test.

[quote]jjackkrash wrote:

It is not a comparable evil to slavery, but it is a comparable evil to prohibiting one race from marrying into another. And whether you couch it in terms of “recognizing” the marriage or “prohibiting it” is just a matter of semantics.
[/quote]

It isn’t comparable to that either. See, state recognized marriage is always discriminatory against consenting adults. Your willingness to simply include one other form of human relationship does not make you even close to a freedom fighter. You’d have to support the state definition of marriage to include anywhere from 1 to 100, 1000, 10,000 consenting adults participating in any form of consensual association or relationship to make an INDIVIDUAL civil rights argument. Or, you’d oppose state recognition and involvement entirely, equalizing every relationship in which the participants decide to consider themselves married. So, always discriminatory, unless you hold the absolutely inclusive position, or the position that the state shouldn’t be involved, period. The first position is an unworkable chaos, the second is libertarian.

So, why do some of us want hetero marriage to remain recognized? Because it’s a critical institution for ordering the inherent reproductive nature of the opposite sexes. Which, without argument, impacts society as a whole. Imagine if heterosexuality simply vanished. Heterosexual attraction and sex fell off the face of the earth. Safe to say it would be disastrous. And that critical aspect justifies the inherent discrimination against all other forms of human relationships (not just homosexual), which naturally arises when the state recognize (not just some completely private affair) it, attempts to provide order to it, and gives it status, title, and privilege. It does so to promote it, because of how critical it is.

Now, imagine if homosexuality vanished? Right, a curious news story for a couple of months, life goes on. To recognize, make arrangements for, and provide benefit to homosexual unions would result in an unjustified, irrational, discrimination. We’re not talking about Jim giving Tom a ring, both agreeing they’re married, and the rest of society having to recognize it no more than if Jim had simply asked Tom to be his weekend chess buddy. There is critical and irreplaceable function of homosexuality to justify the state ELEVATING it above a fishing arrangement. This isn’t about patting people on the back simply because Tom can’t imagine living without Sue. Or in this case Mary imagining she can’t live without Sue. Go live together, then. But state recognition, status and title, putting it on a pedestal? That’s not a private affair.

So, the reason why not recognizing interracial marriages isn’t comparable to the non-recognition of homosexual marriage. Because one is irrational, while the other is rational. Any pairing of the opposite sexes, regardless of the races involved, is a pairing of the REPRODUCTIVE sexes. Logically, fitting the model of the reproductive sexes pairing up, bearing and rearing children in an intact home, with both biological parents present. Race has no bearing on this critical function, nor the model.

There is no rational justification for homosexual marriage.

[quote]sufiandy wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Marriage is an ancient tradition, neither the Church nor the State has control over marriage, in that they cannot change the form or matter of marriage.
[/quote]

Women as property is an ancient tradition, I agree that we (men) should have control over that half of the population, not the government.[/quote]

Ok. I’m not sure how this follows what i said.

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

And it seems that right-wingers aren’t fans of the rights of individuals. [/quote]

So you are conceding the left is anti-democracy?[/quote]

So you are conceding that the right is anti-individual?

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

And it seems that right-wingers aren’t fans of the rights of individuals. [/quote]

So you are conceding the left is anti-democracy?[/quote]

So you are conceding that the right is anti-individual?
[/quote]

How is it the right of individuals to get married?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Deal? If we put it up to popular vote can both sides promise to take the results and STFU? Such a tired non-issue that is never going to have pro/con find middle ground.[/quote]

Makes sense. Let’s allow the majority to decide an issue that affects a minority. We probably should have done the same with slavery. Popular opinion does not equal justice. [/quote]

I’m not really sure that the state not recongnizing gay marriage is equal to, or comparable to, enslaving people.

[/quote]
Then change it to miscegenation.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-250_162-20080237.html

http://open.salon.com/blog/douglas_moran/2012/02/25/republicans_and_birth_control

both Republicans and Democrats are guilty in the last [/quote]

These are your examples? (shaking head)

Not including free birth control on insurance plans?

Keeping drugs out of the hands of children?

Comparing this to a Mayor trying to close down a fast food chaing because the owner believes in Christian values?

Sheesh Pitt…you should just stop trying.
[/quote]

Jee tawilligers ZEB, they are all about the children , we do not want another generation of idiots trying to control each other. I personally think the Chic fillet guy is prospering quite well from this flap . And I do not believe any one has the right to control others unless there is a clear and present danger. (PERIOD)