Orion the french and Dutch peoples both rejected the EU constitution in referendums. The British labour party won reelection on a party manifesto that promised the British electorate a referendum.
German Reichschancellor Merkel stated that since the electorates would not accept the constitution in referendums, the next time it should be reintroduced without the promised referendums.
The people have rejected the constitution in refferendums, but they are getting the constitution anyway. Their power is being transfered to Brussels against their wishes. How can you say that is democratic?
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Orion the french and Dutch peoples both rejected the EU constitution in referendums. The British labour party won reelection on a party manifesto that promised the British electorate a referendum.
German Reichschancellor Merkel stated that since the electorates would not accept the constitution in referendums, the next time it should be reintroduced without the promised referendums.
The people have rejected the constitution in refferendums, but they are getting the constitution anyway. Their power is being transfered to Brussels against their wishes. How can you say that is democratic?[/quote]
It ain’t. It’s just not that big a deal for most Europeans. Sure, they’re pretty mad about sleazy politicians sneaking it in that way, but it’s not like people lost lives nor infants limbs in the process.
Lixy the constitution hasn’t had the chance to do it’s damage, yet. Hard won freedoms are being given away to a European super state that the people have rejected in referendums.
The last time a German Reichschancellor tried to unify Europe into a giant superstate it turned the whole continent into a hell hole. Who are you trying to kid?
Or are trying to subvert this thread into another diatribe about Iraq? I have a lot of freinds who are Iraqi or their parents are. Collectively they have not pissed and moaned as much about the fall of Saddam as you do.
I have watched the news with an Iraqi friend and seen his favorite restaurant in Mansour get blown up by American bombs. His only comment was that was the best restaurant in town. The Iraqis accept that getting rid of Saddam was not going to be painless. You on the other hand refuse to accept that.
[quote]orion wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
It is just that you claim that they are attacking civilians, which is just that, an unproven claim.
[/quote]
An unproven claim? Read the news man!
And you would also see that Chavez today said he is NOT going to cut off the oil.
[quote]Sifu wrote:
Orion the french and Dutch peoples both rejected the EU constitution in referendums. The British labour party won reelection on a party manifesto that promised the British electorate a referendum.
German Reichschancellor Merkel stated that since the electorates would not accept the constitution in referendums, the next time it should be reintroduced without the promised referendums.
The people have rejected the constitution in refferendums, but they are getting the constitution anyway. Their power is being transfered to Brussels against their wishes. How can you say that is democratic?[/quote]
I do not really think it is.
However, they can still chose to kick the governments out that intend to vote for it.
Of course it is a disgrace, just not entirely undemocratic.
Excuse me, have you both not be up and in arms, because I think that the fact that the US is not intentionally killing civilians is not so important
AND
Yes a rape might end quicker when she stops fighting back, yet you are still irresponsible for any further damage to her body when she doesn´t.
Just 2 examples of his eloquent writing lately.
There are others in other threads.
The poor guy is clearly shaken…[/quote]
To slow it down for you.
I was told in other threads that the civilian deaths caused by American actions are not that important, or do not count as much or whatever even though their numbers far exceed the victims of the Iraqi insurgents because the US forces would not intentionally attack those civilians, they are more of an unfortunate byproduct.
So, most of these insurgent groups do not deliberately target Iraqi civilians or else we´d have a second Ruanda on our hands.
If those Iraqi civilians that die are simply collateral damage those Iraqi insurgents are no better or worse than the US military. They accept collateral damage.
You are in their country though, not they in yours.
To the second part:
You understood and understand quite well. It also diminishes the tactic to take something out of context when everyone can scroll back to see what I posted.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
orion wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
It is just that you claim that they are attacking civilians, which is just that, an unproven claim.
An unproven claim? Read the news man!
And you would also see that Chavez today said he is NOT going to cut off the oil.
Thread dead?[/quote]
One word, Ruanda.
If they were hell bent to commit genocide they could do so with machetes and blunt objects.
[quote]orion wrote:
If they were hell bent to commit genocide they could do so with machetes and blunt objects.
Obviously they aren´t.
[/quote]
Does it have to follow the German model to be considered slaughtering civilians? No one said they are committing genocide. They are using car and suicide bombs to attack civilians.
Once more: A US sniper shoots a civilian, and it’s a crime. An Islamist blows himself and his car up in a crowd of shoppers and you guys make a million excuses for him.
You once said “Killing civillians is part of their Jihad and it is why they will win.” Granted. They are the ones who are butchers. Does not mean they will win. It just means they don’t give a shit about humanity and are willing to sacrifice theirselves and innocent people to gain their goals.
Do you think their bloody means justifies their ends? And what does it say about the future of Iraq if we don’t win. Are these the people you and your ilk want ruling the country? People who would slaughter one another without a thought?
What does it say about who is running this so-called insurgency?
[quote]lixy wrote:
It ain’t. It’s just not that big a deal for most Europeans. Sure, they’re pretty mad about sleazy politicians sneaking it in that way, but it’s not like people lost lives nor infants limbs in the process.[/quote]
This coming from someone who cites polls as if the will of the people is being denied in the US.
Why is it no big deal for the Euros to actually vote on referendums on a constitution, but it is a travesty if Zogby reports a shift in US public opinion?
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
Does it have to follow the German model to be considered slaughtering civilians? No one said they are committing genocide. They are using car and suicide bombs to attack civilians.
Once more: A US sniper shoots a civilian, and it’s a crime. An Islamist blows himself and his car up in a crowd of shoppers and you guys make a million excuses for him.
You once said “Killing civillians is part of their Jihad and it is why they will win.” Granted. They are the ones who are butchers. Does not mean they will win. It just means they don’t give a shit about humanity and are willing to sacrifice theirselves and innocent people to gain their goals.
Do you think their bloody means justifies their ends? And what does it say about the future of Iraq if we don’t win. Are these the people you and your ilk want ruling the country? People who would slaughter one another without a thought?
What does it say about who is running this so-called insurgency?[/quote]
Everybody acknowledges that foreign troops are the main target of suicide and car bombers in Iraq. Generally, Civilians are “collateral damage” for them. So yeah, they’re not particularily efficient, but they don’t care so much since life is cheap in Iraq anyways.
I propose the following experiment: Get the hell out of their land, and see if bombs still explode in markets.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
It ain’t. It’s just not that big a deal for most Europeans. Sure, they’re pretty mad about sleazy politicians sneaking it in that way, but it’s not like people lost lives nor infants limbs in the process.
This coming from someone who cites polls as if the will of the people is being denied in the US.
Why is it no big deal for the Euros to actually vote on referendums on a constitution, but it is a travesty if Zogby reports a shift in US public opinion?
Hypocrisy much? [/quote]
You don’t get, do you?
It’s big a deal in the US because people are dying (some very prestigious peer-reviewed journals have been quoting mind-staggering figures) as a consequence.
You show me how the European constitution kills and maims.
[quote]lixy wrote:
rainjack wrote:
lixy wrote:
It ain’t. It’s just not that big a deal for most Europeans. Sure, they’re pretty mad about sleazy politicians sneaking it in that way, but it’s not like people lost lives nor infants limbs in the process.
This coming from someone who cites polls as if the will of the people is being denied in the US.
Why is it no big deal for the Euros to actually vote on referendums on a constitution, but it is a travesty if Zogby reports a shift in US public opinion?
Hypocrisy much?
You don’t get, do you?
It’s big a deal in the US because people are dying (some very prestigious peer-reviewed journals have been quoting mind-staggering figures) as a consequence.
You show me how the European constitution kills and maims. [/quote]
No - you don’t. I think it’s obvious from your posts that you don’t get much of anything.
More people slip in a bathtub and die each year than the american death toll in the ME.
[quote]Gkhan wrote:
orion wrote:
Gkhan wrote:
zephead4747 wrote:
It is just that you claim that they are attacking civilians, which is just that, an unproven claim.
An unproven claim? Read the news man!
And you would also see that Chavez today said he is NOT going to cut off the oil.
[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…It is just that you claim that they are attacking civilians, which is just that, an unproven claim.
…
All those dead bodies are not enough for you?
Excuse me, have you both not be up and in arms, because I think that the fact that the US is not intentionally killing civilians is not so important if Americas military actions lead to hundreds of thousands dying preventable deaths.
Or are the rules for our opponents different?
Sounds like moral relativism to me.
[/quote]
Sounds like you are wasting my time. I have no intention of straitening out facts for you. Islamic insurgence have killed far more innocent civilians than did the actions of the coalition. These are facts, there is nothing relative about them. Don’t believe me then look it up your self.
[quote]orion wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
orion wrote:
…It is just that you claim that they are attacking civilians, which is just that, an unproven claim.
…
All those dead bodies are not enough for you?
Excuse me, have you both not be up and in arms, because I think that the fact that the US is not intentionally killing civilians is not so important if Americas military actions lead to hundreds of thousands dying preventable deaths.
Or are the rules for our opponents different?
Sounds like moral relativism to me.
[/quote]
WTF are you rambling about?
If I recall correctly the latest statistic I saw was the terrorists have (intentionally) killed 6 times as many civilians as the Coalition troops (accidentally) killed.