Chavez Lost!

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
21

[quote]pookie wrote:
pat36 wrote:
South America is notorious for fraud. It’s how they do business. Venezuela is particularly corrupt. If you got the boliviars you can buy your way out of anything there.

How big an idiot would you have to be to tell people that you intend on taking their freedoms and possesions for their own good and the good of the country and think that anybody actually supports that? It’s the same idiot. He thought he had it in the bag…

Well, like I asked of Jeff, where’s the evidence?

It’s one thing to air one’s prejudices in public, then another thing altogether to substitute them for fact, and still another to ask others to accept them as such.

HH said they were no observers; that’s false. Although I’m sure he’ll pop back in as soon as he’s found some ammo to denigrate the observers.

You and Jeff claim the election were rigged… I’m quite willing to accept it, I just want something more solid than “I hate Chavez and I’m sure he rigged the election because he’s the kind of guy who rigs every election.”

Evidence. Not personal feelings.

Didn’t we already cover this point once in a thread about Castro? (The Motherfucker thread, I call it…)
[/quote]

I’ll see what I can find, but honestly I am responding between database scripts in a rather agonizing project at work so I don’t have a lot in the way of research time. Actaully, what I want is the Venzuelan take on it. I will be contacting my “Venezuelan Connection” for that info soon. They have a really healthy pulse on what’s going on day to day there. In that case, you’ll just have to trust what I say, or not. That’s really up to you, but that basically makes me no more reliable than the news media.
The truth of the matter is that Chavez has such a tight fist on all that shit, I doubt well ever know the real actual truth. Unless we get a mouthy defector, like Castro’s daughter did to Castro. Or Dog the Bounty Hunter’s son did to him…

22

[quote]pookie wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
I’m only repeating what I heard on CNN. Argue with them.

No American observers doesn’t mean no international observers.[/quote]

pookie,

Before I start looking for proof. Please let me know which sources you would trust.

Thanks in advance,

JeffR

23

It’s good that his referendum was voted down, he may just stage some false flag terror or start a war with Colombia to get his Executive powers…

24

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
I’m only repeating what I heard on CNN. Argue with them. [/quote]

You should know better than trusting the American media on such issues. I mean, do you not think some of your journalist compatriots might be a tiny bit biased towards Chavez because he called your president the Devil?

Don’t believe the lies. There were plenty of busy international observers around the country this past week-end.

25

[quote]pat36 wrote:
I’ll see what I can find, but honestly I am responding between database scripts in a rather agonizing project at work so I don’t have a lot in the way of research time.[/quote]

SELECT * FROM VENEZUELAN_NEWS WHERE UPPER(text) LIKE ‘%RIG%’;

no rows selected.

Assuming you and your friend are perfectly fair and impartial. Which I kinda doubt.

I’ll stick with using multiple sources, from all over the globe.

Here again, how can you know he/she/it is not simply telling you what you want to hear because it’s in their best personal interest to do so?

If getting to the truth was easy, we wouldn’t be having those debates.

26

[quote]pookie wrote:
pat36 wrote:
I’ll see what I can find, but honestly I am responding between database scripts in a rather agonizing project at work so I don’t have a lot in the way of research time.

SELECT * FROM VENEZUELAN_NEWS WHERE UPPER(text) LIKE ‘%RIG%’;

no rows selected.

Actaully, what I want is the Venzuelan take on it. I will be contacting my “Venezuelan Connection” for that info soon. They have a really healthy pulse on what’s going on day to day there. In that case, you’ll just have to trust what I say, or not. That’s really up to you, but that basically makes me no more reliable than the news media.

Assuming you and your friend are perfectly fair and impartial. Which I kinda doubt.

I’ll stick with using multiple sources, from all over the globe.

The truth of the matter is that Chavez has such a tight fist on all that shit, I doubt well ever know the real actual truth. Unless we get a mouthy defector, like Castro’s daughter did to Castro. Or Dog the Bounty Hunter’s son did to him…

Here again, how can you know he/she/it is not simply telling you what you want to hear because it’s in their best personal interest to do so?

If getting to the truth was easy, we wouldn’t be having those debates.

[/quote]

That query would never work! It’s got to be case senstive and in spanish.

select * from News_Media where Country=‘Venzuela’ and El_Presidente=‘Cabesa de Penga’ and Vota NOT LIKE “%el rigo%”

(0 row(s) returned)

Not searching for impartial, looking for the social pulse…I look for articles for more factual info…

27

[quote]lixy wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Chavez puts himself up against the most powerful nation on earth, plus the IMF and World Bank. I’m surprised he’s still alive.

It’s not like they didn’t try, now is it?[/quote]

It’s a shame they didn’t succeed. Hopefully, we’ll try and try again, he’s not as smart as Castro, he to open to often.

28

Googling Venezuela Election Fraud gets a ton of hits of allegations of previous election fraud. No way anyone will ever know the truth.

29

[quote]jlesk68 wrote:
It’s good that his referendum was voted down, he may just stage some false flag terror or start a war with Colombia to get his Executive powers…[/quote]

He already has said that he’ll cut off oil to the US if he finds out we interfered. I am sure he’ll soon find that and that’ll be his ticket.

30

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
jlesk68 wrote:
It’s good that his referendum was voted down, he may just stage some false flag terror or start a war with Colombia to get his Executive powers…

He already has said that he’ll cut off oil to the US if he finds out we interfered. I am sure he’ll soon find that and that’ll be his ticket. [/quote]

Well, the CIA is notorious for meddling in the internal affairs of Latin America. There is a large number of Americans openly calling for military action on Venezuela, and there seems to be tacit support from Washington.

I don’t know if the US interfered with this referendum, but I’m certain that given the opportunity, your government would jump on the occasion.

Surprise? Not really. Big deal? Definitely!

31

[quote]pat36 wrote:
That query would never work! It’s got to be case senstive and in spanish.

select * from News_Media where Country=‘Venzuela’ and El_Presidente=‘Cabesa de Penga’ and Vota NOT LIKE “%el rigo%”

(0 row(s) returned)[/quote]

Well, actually, my use of UPPER() converts all text to uppercase, so that takes care of case sensitivity, and my usage of ‘%RIG%’ covers your “EL RIGO” example.

Neener, neener. I rule.

And since I’m such a pedantic asshole, I’d note that your query for a country named “Venzuela” (missing an “e”) is why your query returns nothing.

You come across as extremely anti-Chavez… as was mentioned in the Castro thread, even if you don’t generally like someone, that doesn’t mean that 100% of their actions or decisions from birth 'til death are completetly evil. Bad persons can do good stuff, even if only accidentally or from side effects.

I’m no fan of the guy myself, but I won’t claim he rigs election just because I might think he does.

32

The public having a say in how legislation is shaped?!? Absolute insanity!

Thankfully here in the US the powers that be grant themselves as much power and expansion as they see fit, regardless of how the public feels about it.

USA! USA! USA!

33

I only have one thing to say:

Pooorque no te callaaaas? Pooorque no te callaaaas?

34

[quote]pookie wrote:
pat36 wrote:
That query would never work! It’s got to be case senstive and in spanish.

select * from News_Media where Country=‘Venzuela’ and El_Presidente=‘Cabesa de Penga’ and Vota NOT LIKE “%el rigo%”

(0 row(s) returned)

Well, actually, my use of UPPER() converts all text to uppercase, so that takes care of case sensitivity, and my usage of ‘%RIG%’ covers your “EL RIGO” example.

Neener, neener. I rule.

And since I’m such a pedantic asshole, I’d note that your query for a country named “Venzuela” (missing an “e”) is why your query returns nothing.

Not searching for impartial, looking for the social pulse…I look for articles for more factual info…

You come across as extremely anti-Chavez… as was mentioned in the Castro thread, even if you don’t generally like someone, that doesn’t mean that 100% of their actions or decisions from birth 'til death are completetly evil. Bad persons can do good stuff, even if only accidentally or from side effects.

I’m no fan of the guy myself, but I won’t claim he rigs election just because I might think he does.

[/quote]

Damn! I’ll work on the query…

Do you think I come accross anti-Chavez? I thought I was hiding my disdain for the cocksucker rather well.

I assume fraud because he is famous for it and has a history. You can google it over half a million hits come regarding previous elections in Venezuela with Chavez. So it not unprecedented.

I am just guessing here in regards to this one but he lost by such a slim margin, that one would think he’d be contesting the results; unless of course he has something to hide, which I think he does. Otherwise, I’d have predicting him screaming at the top of his lungs that he was the victim of fraud.

Hell, he was so sure he was going to win that he even threatened the U.S. with with holding oil shipments if we had any negative press about his victory. I wish he would anyway since very few places outside the U.S. can refine his shit oil anyway, he’d only hurt himself. I don’t buy his fucking crap.
I guess that’s a conspiracy theory, but I bet I am not far off.

35

[quote]pat36 wrote:
Hell, he was so sure he was going to win that he even threatened the U.S. with with holding oil shipments if we had any negative press about his victory. [/quote]

How would you go about with holding oil shipments to America when international oil companies do the shipping?

36

Wealth inequality is quite high in Venezuela. Chavez takes from the wealthiest two fifths and gives to the poorer three fifths. When election time comes, the three fifths who get free money outnumber the two fifths who lose theirs. No fraud necessary.

Lest some protest though, poverty may be seen as a bigger detriment to freedom from the viewpoint of a piss poor individual than any of the douchebaggery for which Chavez has become known. What’s interesting about this result is that it seems in this case that the machine Chavez built to carry himself to power has become bigger than himself. It was members of his own constituency who provided the necessary numbers to tip the balance when they saw that this measure benefited only Chavez himself rather than them. It indicates that the electorate is free and rational, even if often acting as a tyrannical majority.

37

[quote]nephorm wrote:
I only have one thing to say:

Pooorque no te callaaaas? Pooorque no te callaaaas?[/quote]

http://www.tu.tv/videos/por-que-no-te-callas-cancion-oficial

38

[quote]pat36 wrote:
I assume fraud because he is famous for it and has a history. You can google it over half a million hits come regarding previous elections in Venezuela with Chavez. So it not unprecedented. [/quote]

All elections are subject to fraud. But when many international observers (legitimate ones, not guys from Cuba, China and Russia) are invited over and later claim that they had unrestricted access and found no problems in the process, I tend to accept that the elections where as kosher as can be expected.

Our last referendum on separating from Canada was lost with an even thinner margin (50.58% to 49.42%) and people accepted the result. Of course, we have a better tradition of democracy than South American nations.

One would think that the US would applaud a democratic result anywhere in the world, whether you like the government in place or not. Democracy means respecting the choice of the electorate, even if you personally disagree with it. Instead, we get negative PR and a vast demonizing campaign that turns anything Chavez does into some evil scheme.

When you support friendly dictatorships and oppose or destabilize democratically elected regimes, it makes your claims of “bringing democracy to the world” and “being a beacon of freedom and liberty” ring hollow. Hypocritical even.

[quote]Hell, he was so sure he was going to win that he even threatened the U.S. with with holding oil shipments if we had any negative press about his victory. I wish he would anyway since very few places outside the U.S. can refine his shit oil anyway, he’d only hurt himself. I don’t buy his fucking crap.
I guess that’s a conspiracy theory, but I bet I am not far off.[/quote]

Unless he stops all oil shipments, his threats ring pretty hollow. Any oil he keeps from you, he’ll sell to someone else, who’ll buy less from other suppliers, dropping the price for you. It all evens out in the end.

As for being sure to win, all politicians are always convinced they’ll win. I don’t remember ever seeing one claiming defeat before the vote, do you?

39

[quote]pookie wrote:
pat36 wrote:
I assume fraud because he is famous for it and has a history. You can google it over half a million hits come regarding previous elections in Venezuela with Chavez. So it not unprecedented.

All elections are subject to fraud. But when many international observers (legitimate ones, not guys from Cuba, China and Russia) are invited over and later claim that they had unrestricted access and found no problems in the process, I tend to accept that the elections where as kosher as can be expected.

I am just guessing here in regards to this one but he lost by such a slim margin, that one would think he’d be contesting the results; unless of course he has something to hide, which I think he does. Otherwise, I’d have predicting him screaming at the top of his lungs that he was the victim of fraud.

Our last referendum on separating from Canada was lost with an even thinner margin (50.58% to 49.42%) and people accepted the result. Of course, we have a better tradition of democracy than South American nations.

One would think that the US would applaud a democratic result anywhere in the world, whether you like the government in place or not. Democracy means respecting the choice of the electorate, even if you personally disagree with it. Instead, we get negative PR and a vast demonizing campaign that turns anything Chavez does into some evil scheme.

When you support friendly dictatorships and oppose or destabilize democratically elected regimes, it makes your claims of “bringing democracy to the world” and “being a beacon of freedom and liberty” ring hollow. Hypocritical even.

Hell, he was so sure he was going to win that he even threatened the U.S. with with holding oil shipments if we had any negative press about his victory. I wish he would anyway since very few places outside the U.S. can refine his shit oil anyway, he’d only hurt himself. I don’t buy his fucking crap.
I guess that’s a conspiracy theory, but I bet I am not far off.

Unless he stops all oil shipments, his threats ring pretty hollow. Any oil he keeps from you, he’ll sell to someone else, who’ll buy less from other suppliers, dropping the price for you. It all evens out in the end.

As for being sure to win, all politicians are always convinced they’ll win. I don’t remember ever seeing one claiming defeat before the vote, do you?
[/quote]

Chavez has a tendency to throw a shit fit every time something doesn’t go his way. He points fingers accuses the U.S, etc. That’s why I am surprised he isn’t doing that now. But you are right all elections are subject to fraud anywhere in the world and honestly we’d be none the wise if it has or does happen here. Hey, but at least we are under the illusion of control.

I have a more sinister approach to democracy. I actually don’t care if places that I have no vested interests in, have freedom or not. As long as they are either freindly, or not a threat, then they can do what ever the fuck they want. People like GWB believe that if people have a choice they will ultimately make the right decision. That was proven false be the palistinians when they elected hamas…Apparently they like to live in squaller. So I don’t accept the results of that democratic process because it is a hostile result.

Venezuelan oil is apparently very hard to refine. That’s why the cocksucker still sells it to the U.S., we’re one of the few who can refine it in mass quantities. Otherwise, he’d be dealing exclusively with china whom he prefers to deal with. I don’t shop at Shitgo anyway, so he can drink his fucking crude for all I care.

40

[quote]pat36 wrote:

I am just guessing here in regards to this one but he lost by such a slim margin, that one would think he’d be contesting the results; unless of course he has something to hide, which I think he does. Otherwise, I’d have predicting him screaming at the top of his lungs that he was the victim of fraud.

[/quote]

If someone radically changes their behavior, then something caused that to happen. I suppose the CFR told him to be happy with the results or take a bullet. Someone got to him, that’s for sure.

Does he have children, btw? If so, someone might have mentioned that to him as well. Children have been known to vanish, become ill suddenly, all sorts of things like that. The CFR is very ‘influential’.