Charlie Brown Kwanza

Off Topic
81

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:

If you think the US is a “Christian country” then you have some studying to do. Most of the founding fathers were deists, if they indeed had belief. And while the country was certainly has a distinct Judeo-Christian heritage, it was also heavily influenced by several varieties of Enlightenment thinking in Europe, and by the radical Whigs of early 18th Century England. [/quote]

My favorite opinion on this subject comes, unsurprisingly, from Thomas Jefferson:

“It does me no injury for my neighbor to say that there are twenty gods or no God; it neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.”

Say what you will about whether or not old Tom was a racist for owning slaves. At least he had the religion thing figured out.

I liked that too. Always nice when an author signs his work.

82

Unlike Kwanza, Christmas is celebrated around the world by people in most all counties. It is a Christian holiday. And yes my little rocket scientist, the US is a Christian Country. Why do you think it states “In God We Trust” on our money? Retard!

This is just awesome. I don’t know what I like more: his lack of general knowledge, his superb reasoning, “my little rocket scientist,” or the exclamatory “Retard!”

I seriously feel badly for you for thinking the way you do. I am a Christian, I normally vote Republican, so don’t write this off as me being some “leftist,” but your thinking is extremely narrow minded and elementary.

83

Let’s settle this once and for all: Kwanzaa is stupid. Christmas is stupid. St. Patty’s day is stupid. Easter is stupid. Valentine’s day is stupid. Thanksgiving is about the only major holiday I can think of that even makes sense. (It’s also the only one I really enjoy, it’s quite delicious and relaxing)

  1. Kwanzaa is dumb for reasons already stated.

  2. Christmas is stupid because it’s essentially a pagan holiday that had the Jesus story slapped onto it (It just happened to fall on December 25th, purely by coincidence!). Then we decided non-Christians had to be involved to, so Santa was slapped onto it (his introduction to the holiday was actually partly the result of actions by the Coca Cola company, so he’s partly a commercial entity). What we have is such a mishmash of holidays that it doesn’t look like anything recognizable anymore.

  3. St. Patty’s day celebrates the patron saint of Ireland, who introduced Christianity to many and drove the snakes out of Ireland by wearing green and getting shit faced. The stupidity of this needs no comment.

  4. Easter. Yet again a mixing of Christian and Pagan holidays with nonsensical results.

  5. Valentine’s day. Introduced in America as a way to sell gift cards.

In conclusion, what the fuck.

84

Actually I would disagree and say that most Japanese DONT celebrate Xmas.

Everybody works on that day and very few people I know give presents or decorate their houses.

It could be argued that they do like the image of Xmas (decorations etc) but thats about as far as it goes.

My father in law, mother in law and sister in law, as well as every other Japanese person I know is working on Xmas day. In fact most of my friends were looking forward to Xmas Eve more than Xmas day. In Japan Xmas Eve is a couples holiday and seen as a romantic time of year.

Hell, they go to KFC for Xmas dinner!!!

85

[quote]spiderman739 wrote:
Actually I would disagree and say that most Japanese DONT celebrate Xmas.

Everybody works on that day and very few people I know give presents or decorate their houses.

It could be argued that they do like the image of Xmas (decorations etc) but thats about as far as it goes.

My father in law, mother in law and sister in law, as well as every other Japanese person I know is working on Xmas day. In fact most of my friends were looking forward to Xmas Eve more than Xmas day. In Japan Xmas Eve is a couples holiday and seen as a romantic time of year.

Hell, they go to KFC for Xmas dinner!!! [/quote]

I imagine the reason everyone works on Christmas day is because it is not an officialy-designated national holiday in Japan. (I forget: does everyone get the day off in the States for Hanukkah? No matter).

The big winter holiday is New Years, but Christmas is big business here as well. In more affluent neighborhoods, people compete with one another for the most elaborate (and in many cases nauseatingly gaudy) decorations, complete with thousand-bulb strings of flashing lights strung around the yard and a life-size plastic “Santa-san” on the roof. I shit you not.

People give each other end-of-year gifts (oseibo), and children get money (otoshidama) from their relatives in customs not traditionally associated with Christmas, but the Western tradition of Christmas gift-giving, with its associated shopping sprees, was just too attractive for the department stores not to take advantage of.

Typically the Christmas decorations go up right after Halloween (another pagan/quasi-Christian/consumerist holiday that has made inroads here in recent years), and the hot topic of conversation among schoolchildren is what electronic gadgets and other crap they can hope to receive from “Santa-san”.

Around the middle of November the orders for “Christmas cakes” start being taken. Christmas cakes are, near as I can tell, angel’s food cake decorated with white frosting and strawberries (never actually eaten one). I’m not sure where the custom of eating this kind of cake for Christmas has come from (my best guess is Germany). People generally respond with blank stares when I try to explain fruitcakes and plum puddings. Oh, and if you’re too much of a flake to order one, you can get your Christmas cake at KFC, so that explains that connection.

Yes, Virginia, they do celebrate Christmas in Japan. Perhaps not the same way as Americans do, because it has zero religious significance here.

Then again I wonder how much religious signicance the holiday has to most Americans these days?

86

[quote]CaptainLogic wrote:
SkyzykS wrote:
So I guess no one sees any humor in that?
I thought it was funnier than hell.

“Now hear me out or I’ll slap the black of y’all.”

I thought it was pretty good too, didn’t really find it overly offensive either.[/quote]

The one that stood out to me was- “Of all the muthafuckas, you are the muthafuckist!”
and the list of services that Lucy offres as a psychiatrist- including but not limited to stickig furniture in her ass.

87

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
My, my. You missed the point completely. I am Jack’s total lack of surprise.

Lorisco’s original statement: “No other races celebrate a holiday that did not come from their country of origin or their current country or residence.”

Varqanir’s rebuttal: Many races celebrate Christmas, even though it is a holiday that did not originate from their country of residence or origin.

Lorisco’s reply: “Christmas is celebrated around the world by people in most all counties. It is a Christian holiday.”

Varqanir, smiling: Isn’t that what I just said? And the Japanese, most of whom are not Christian, celebrate it as well, which further invalidates your statement.

Lorisco, beginning to babble a bit: “And yes my little rocket scientist, the US is a Christian Country. Why do you think it states “In God We Trust” on our money?”

Varqanir, truly amused by now: First off, I neither affirmed nor denied that the US is a Christian nation. The millions of Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Rastafarians and atheists living in America might have something to say about the subject, but it is beside the point.

No, what amuses me is that as evidence of your claim that the US is a “Christian Country”, you exhibit the “In God We Trust” motto on American currency. Has it ever occurred to you that believers of other religions beside Christianity might also trust in God?

Lorisco, saving his most penetrating and insightful argument for last: “Retard.”

Varqanir, reeling from this witheringly clever retort: Ach, laddie! Ye cut me to the quick! I’ll say nae more.

Except, perhaps, that I truly do pity you. I would hate to have to go through life with your level of perception and understanding.[/quote]

This was an awesome rebuttal. Lorisco, you’ve been served!

88

I know and work with quite a few African-Americans. After seeing this thread, I took it upon myself to ask a few African-Americans what Kwanzaa means to them and how the celebrate the holiday. Not one of them truly knew what it was all about, and none of them celebrated it. They knew it was sometime in December, but that was about it.

The “holiday” is largely overlooked. This time of year, people are worried about their own religious holidays, regardless of their race.

As for the video, I thought it was hysterical. Anyone who was offended by that needs to get thicker skin…regardless of its color.

89

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
Let’s settle this once and for all: Kwanzaa is stupid. Christmas is stupid. St. Patty’s day is stupid. Easter is stupid. Valentine’s day is stupid. Thanksgiving is about the only major holiday I can think of that even makes sense. (It’s also the only one I really enjoy, it’s quite delicious and relaxing)

  1. Kwanzaa is dumb for reasons already stated.

  2. Christmas is stupid because it’s essentially a pagan holiday that had the Jesus story slapped onto it (It just happened to fall on December 25th, purely by coincidence!). Then we decided non-Christians had to be involved to, so Santa was slapped onto it (his introduction to the holiday was actually partly the result of actions by the Coca Cola company, so he’s partly a commercial entity). What we have is such a mishmash of holidays that it doesn’t look like anything recognizable anymore.

  3. St. Patty’s day celebrates the patron saint of Ireland, who introduced Christianity to many and drove the snakes out of Ireland by wearing green and getting shit faced. The stupidity of this needs no comment.

  4. Easter. Yet again a mixing of Christian and Pagan holidays with nonsensical results.

  5. Valentine’s day. Introduced in America as a way to sell gift cards.

In conclusion, what the fuck. [/quote]

I understand what you are saying, but Christmas isn’t a pagan holiday because it replaced a pagan holiday. And Easter has absolutely no significance pagan wise, as what is celebrated now is the resurrection of Christ (despite what roots it may have had.) I’m also not sure why you think the holiday is nonsensical.

90

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:
cap’nsalty wrote:
Let’s settle this once and for all: Kwanzaa is stupid. Christmas is stupid. St. Patty’s day is stupid. Easter is stupid. Valentine’s day is stupid. Thanksgiving is about the only major holiday I can think of that even makes sense. (It’s also the only one I really enjoy, it’s quite delicious and relaxing)

  1. Kwanzaa is dumb for reasons already stated.

  2. Christmas is stupid because it’s essentially a pagan holiday that had the Jesus story slapped onto it (It just happened to fall on December 25th, purely by coincidence!). Then we decided non-Christians had to be involved to, so Santa was slapped onto it (his introduction to the holiday was actually partly the result of actions by the Coca Cola company, so he’s partly a commercial entity). What we have is such a mishmash of holidays that it doesn’t look like anything recognizable anymore.

  3. St. Patty’s day celebrates the patron saint of Ireland, who introduced Christianity to many and drove the snakes out of Ireland by wearing green and getting shit faced. The stupidity of this needs no comment.

  4. Easter. Yet again a mixing of Christian and Pagan holidays with nonsensical results.

  5. Valentine’s day. Introduced in America as a way to sell gift cards.

In conclusion, what the fuck.

I understand what you are saying, but Christmas isn’t a pagan holiday because it replaced a pagan holiday. And Easter has absolutely no significance pagan wise, as what is celebrated now is the resurrection of Christ (despite what roots it may have had.) I’m also not sure why you think the holiday is nonsensical. [/quote]

The point is that all of the rituals surrounding christmas, with the exception of the christmas play, have absolutely nothing to do with Christianity.

And you don’t find anything nonsensical about celebrating the resurrection of Christ with eggs and rabbits?

For the record, I’m not religious. I’m just sick of pretending that holidays still mean something when we take a religious holiday and surround it with nonsensical fluff. I refuse to celebrate a rabbit giving out chocolate eggs, and Christmas as a holiday will not be meaningful until it loses the Santa/pagan imagery.

91

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:

  1. St. Patty’s day celebrates the patron saint of Ireland, who introduced Christianity to many and drove the snakes out of Ireland by wearing green and getting shit faced. The stupidity of this needs no comment.[/quote]

On the contrary, cap’n! I’ve got nothing but respect for St. Patrick, if he truly, as you claim, “introduced Christianity to many and drove the snakes out of Ireland by wearing green and getting shit faced”!

Missionaries and pest control personnel everywhere should take a leaf from his book!

No, but seriously, although I generally chuckle at your Grouchy Smurf-esque posts, I think you’re right on the money with this one.

92

I suppose it comes down to your definition of what it means to celebrate a holiday vs observing a holiday.

I give gifts, eat a Christmas dinner and enjoy a good tipple at Xmas. I consider this to be celebrating rather than observing. I buy into the cheesy/commercial aspect of it BUT you wouldnt catch me anywhere near a church on Xmas eve or Xmas day.

I think that this is the case in Japan also. While they follow all the trappings of Xmas they are merely doing it for the kitch and novelty value. To be honest the people that actaully observe Xmas as a religious holiday vs those that just go with the flow are probably in the minority.

Anyway, Im going off point now.

P.S If you want to read about gaudy Xmas decoration go to the BBC website and watch the video about the guy who spent 20,000 dollars US on ligts for his house in Tokyo.

93

[quote]spiderman739 wrote:
I suppose it comes down to your definition of what it means to celebrate a holiday vs observing a holiday.[/quote]

Very true.

Same here…that is, about the church part. The cheesy commercial part I pretty much ignore.

Kitsch and novelty being, as you are likely aware, two of Japan’s national pastimes.

[quote]To be honest the people that actaully observe Xmas as a religious holiday vs those that just go with the flow are probably in the minority.
Anyway, Im going off point now.[/quote]

Not at all, Spidey. That was the point. That the holiday originated as an excuse for drunken debauchery, was converted into a celebration of the birth of Jesus at the whim of a Roman emperor, and now has devolved, for many people, into an excuse for overcharging one’s credit card to buy crap for unappreciative friends and family, dining with relatives one would prefer to meet at their funerals, and eating stale cake at Kentucky Fried Chicken.

I’m sure plenty of devout Christians still observe Christmas in reverent celebration of the Birth of their Holy Savior, but I would imagine they are now in the minority worldwide.

By now, December 25 has come and gone in the wilds of Southeastern Japan, much the same as other winter days have, with cold Pacific winds and a great sunset over the foothils by the sea. For me, today was “Sunday”. Then again, for me every day is Sunday. :wink:

[quote]P.S If you want to read about gaudy Xmas
decoration go to the BBC website and watch the video about the guy who spent 20,000 dollars US on ligts for his house in Tokyo.[/quote]

Ha! I hope they brought him great satisfaction and elevated his consciousness to a higher plane. Yeah, people in Tokyo are fucking crazy.

94

[quote]Kuz wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Kuz wrote:
The fact that anyone is actually somehow getting offended at the idea of Kwanza is really the hilarious part. So what if it’s not DIRECTLY tied to an African holiday? Does it have to be? Would that somehow make it suddenly “authentic” and permissible?

And to those who wonder about holidays celebrated in this country by people of a certain descent, but not back in the country of their ancestry, I am stunned that everyone is missing a HUGE one:

St. Patrick’s Day.

Ireland - A fairly simple religious holiday.

U.S. - A license to wear a crapload of green, claim to be Irish and drink yourself into a coma.

Now, Ireland has recently sought to expand on the holiday a bit in an effort to drum up some tourism, but overall, it is not celebrated in any close fashion in Ireland as it is here in the U.S. as the ultimate symbol of Irish pride.

So does that mean we have to cancel St. Patty’s Day?

Kwanza

Africa - No Holiday

America - No Holiday

It’s meaning? - Know one really knows but it makes us feel policitcaly correct somehow.

Wow… that’s just missing the point. It’s obviously a holiday or celebration to SOME people… otherwise we wouldn’t be having this entire discussion, now would we?

People asked for a situation where an ethnic group celebrates a holiday here in the U.S. that is not celebrated back in the land of their ancestry. I provided it. What’s so hard to understand about that?[/quote]

St Patrick’s Day IS celebrated in Ireland. So you have not proven your point.

95

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
My, my. You missed the point completely. I am Jack’s total lack of surprise.

Lorisco’s original statement: “No other races celebrate a holiday that did not come from their country of origin or their current country or residence.”

Varqanir’s rebuttal: Many races celebrate Christmas, even though it is a holiday that did not originate from their country of residence or origin.

Lorisco’s reply: “Christmas is celebrated around the world by people in most all counties. It is a Christian holiday.”

Varqanir, smiling: Isn’t that what I just said? And the Japanese, most of whom are not Christian, celebrate it as well, which further invalidates your statement.
[/quote]

You aren’t getting it sport. Kwanza is celebrated in the US as an African holiday (Harvest festival), but it isn’t and never was an African holiday. Christmas is NOT celebrated as some European holiday. The meaning is not tied to any country. Kwanza is SPECIFICALLY celebrated as relating to Africa.

Can you hear me now?

Has it ever accrued to you to open a history book and see what religion the people were who put that statement on the US currency? They weren’t Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Rastafarians and atheists now were they. No they weren’t. Your antics are just silly. Christians founded the US and Christians put that statement on our currency.

96

[quote]Mr. Bear wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Varqanir wrote:
Lorisco wrote:

No other races celebrate a holiday that did not come from their country of origin or their current country or residence.

So what you are essentially telling us is that in order to celebrate Christmas, one would have to be a resident of or emigrant from the Holy Roman Empire?

December 25 was originally the birthday of the Roman sun god Mithra, and was celebrated with a Bacchanal orgy called Saturnalia, until Emperor Constantine converted to Christianity and declared this holiday the celebration of Jesus’ birth. How’s that for a made-up holiday?

Oh, but perhaps you say that your statement does not apply to Christmas, because it is now a Christian holiday, so it is proper to celebrate it in America, being as America is a Christian nation?

Well, you know how many Christians there are here in Japan? About as many Zoroastrians as there are over there in America. You know how many Japanese people celebrate Christmas? Almost all of them.

Lorisco, we already realize that you are an idiot. There is no need to keep proving it by making statements on topics about which you know nothing.

Grates et io Saturnalia.

Unlike Kwanza, Christmas is celebrated around the world by people in most all counties. It is a Christian holiday. And yes my little rocket scientist, the US is a Christian Country. Why do you think it states “In God We Trust” on our money? Retard!

If you think the US is a “Christian country” then you have some studying to do. Most of the founding fathers were deists, if they indeed had belief. And while the country was certainly has a distinct Judeo-Christian heritage, it was also heavily influenced by several varieties of Enlightenment thinking in Europe, and by the radical Whigs of early 18th Century England.

P.S. The retard at the end of the statement is a nice touch, though. [/quote]

The founding fathers believed in God as the creator as it is mentioned in the D of I. America's Founding Documents | National Archives

Also, if you can read legislative history since the founding of the country most all the Vice laws related to specific Christian values. Also, why do you think the Arab countries don’t like us? Because they think we are all Christians. This is well documented, look it up.

97

[quote]spiderman739 wrote:
I suppose it comes down to your definition of what it means to celebrate a holiday vs observing a holiday.

I give gifts, eat a Christmas dinner and enjoy a good tipple at Xmas. I consider this to be celebrating rather than observing. I buy into the cheesy/commercial aspect of it BUT you wouldnt catch me anywhere near a church on Xmas eve or Xmas day.

I think that this is the case in Japan also. While they follow all the trappings of Xmas they are merely doing it for the kitch and novelty value. To be honest the people that actaully observe Xmas as a religious holiday vs those that just go with the flow are probably in the minority.

Anyway, Im going off point now.

P.S If you want to read about gaudy Xmas decoration go to the BBC website and watch the video about the guy who spent 20,000 dollars US on ligts for his house in Tokyo.[/quote]

No, the point is that Kwanzaa is specifically designed to be linked to African culture and heritage. It is not the cerebration of a religious practice.

So the point remains that what makes it nonsensically is that it relates to African cultural practices that do not exist. It would make more sense for Kwanzaa to be modeled after an actual African observance.

98

Lorisco, I seriously suggest you take to heart the title of this Forum, and get a fucking life. Why does it matter so much to you?

I mean, if a bunch of white people decided to observe “Wonder Bread and Velveeta Cheese Week” as a celebration of ethnic pride, who would fucking care? I just can’t see Professor X or Al Durr or anybody intelligent working themselves into a lather over it.

Go ahead and be a babbling moron if it gives you pleasure. I for one am going to ignore you from now on.

Happy Kwanzaa.

99

spiderman:

What is a “tipple”???

LOL!

Mufasa

100

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
spiderman:

What is a “tipple”???

LOL!

Mufasa[/quote]

That’s when you’ve got some hottie under the mistletoe, and you’re both tanked on eggnog, and she’s wearing that cute little red velvet fur-lined Santa miniskirt, but there are lots of people around, so you only have a chance to surreptitiously slip in the “tipple”.

What, you mean you’ve never done that?! :wink: