Charles Darwin Film 'Too Controversial for Religious America'

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
201

[quote]alexisonfireuk wrote:
The problem we are having in this thread is that god cannot be proven, or disproved.
So the creationists (not matter how much evidence we give them saying the world was not made in 7 days), will always come back to the fact god cannot be disproved.

However their logic is wrong as creationism has been disproved by pretty much everything to do with science (even if god hasn’t), but they will still hold onto the notion that as there is a god that you cannot disprove there must be creationism, even though that is not the argument at hand.

We know from science that the world was created billions of years ago, that the universe is expanding ECT. Science is not a religion, and is not based on faith, but rather the quest for truth and knowledge.
I think any creationist who hasn’t got their head shoved up their *ss can see that, and hopefully accept that the world was not created in an arbitrary fashion in seven days.

However this does not disprove god, it only disproves creationism.
just because we have proof that the world was made billions of years ago, does not disprove god, as for all we know, “god” may have started the big bang, or in some form created the conditions for it to happen.
From my point of view if there was a god, then given that has allows everything to have free will, natural selection and evolution seem obvious in the face of free will. If god intervened continually then free will would disappear.

O Creationism = disproved
O Evolution = a major scientific theory with alot of scientific credit
O God = down to the individuals spiritual beliefs and a completely different philosophical discussion altogether.

Anything said contrary to the last three bullet points, either people donâ??t have the intellect to accept this as fact, or they are so ignorant they canâ??t be reasoned with and should just be left alone to do curls in a the squat rack until the executioner comes knocking.
[/quote]

Go back way before planets were formed. What does science say about the the universe being created. And if there was no universe because it wasnt created yet what was there?. Why stop with the earth being created?. What was there? If there was just a void, what created that? Sounds like intelligent design to me. We could get into planets revolving around others, better yet the planets bumped into each other until they evolved and became intelligent so now they revolve exactly where they should and havent moved since. Evolutionists rely too heavily on miracles that happen on their own. These are huge miracles to say the least in that something with no intelligence fixed itself on its own or created itself on its own.

202

[quote]Sloth wrote:
Don’t you guys hate how a good Christian baiting thread can’t stay on topic?[/quote]

Nice Try! I was simply referring to anothers post. Not yours. But thanks

203

[quote]Chuck24 wrote:
It also assumes that God is this mean individual who will punish anyone who does not believe. Really? A being with all the power in the universe gets mad if a mere human doesn’t believe? That’s laughable.

God will punish eternally anyone who doesnt believe Christ his son died on the cross and he who doesnt repent of sins and turn their back on them. Its a realtionship with Christ. Not a sitting in church on Sundays. Church dont get you to heaven. A relationship does. God actually HAS given you a choice on where your eternal destiny will be. Hes a HOLY God who wont tolerate sin. Before Christ died you didnt have a choice. Christ didnt just die and thats was it. When on the cross Jesus took Gods angry viscious wrath in just 3 hours which would have been eternal hell for 1 beleiver. But took eternal Hell for everyone who would believe in 3 hours and then died when God was finished with him. Only an eternal being was capable of this. Im trying to explain this to you and not so much trying to preach to you. So its more constructive discussion. I hope you take it that way.
[/quote]

So according to this belief system, the Jews (God’s chosen ppl, who don’t believe that Christ is the Son of God) are going to hell? Even if they are devout and follow God’s law?

So anyway, this got me thinking… can anyone on here tell me what the “official” position of the Jewish community is on evolution. I would assume that the reform sect would be more open, but what about the orthodox or hasidic sects? Anyone…

204

[quote]Chuck24 wrote:
alexisonfireuk wrote:
The problem we are having in this thread is that god cannot be proven, or disproved.
So the creationists (not matter how much evidence we give them saying the world was not made in 7 days), will always come back to the fact god cannot be disproved.

However their logic is wrong as creationism has been disproved by pretty much everything to do with science (even if god hasn’t), but they will still hold onto the notion that as there is a god that you cannot disprove there must be creationism, even though that is not the argument at hand.

We know from science that the world was created billions of years ago, that the universe is expanding ECT. Science is not a religion, and is not based on faith, but rather the quest for truth and knowledge.
I think any creationist who hasn’t got their head shoved up their *ss can see that, and hopefully accept that the world was not created in an arbitrary fashion in seven days.

However this does not disprove god, it only disproves creationism.
just because we have proof that the world was made billions of years ago, does not disprove god, as for all we know, “god” may have started the big bang, or in some form created the conditions for it to happen.
From my point of view if there was a god, then given that has allows everything to have free will, natural selection and evolution seem obvious in the face of free will. If god intervened continually then free will would disappear.

O Creationism = disproved
O Evolution = a major scientific theory with alot of scientific credit
O God = down to the individuals spiritual beliefs and a completely different philosophical discussion altogether.

Anything said contrary to the last three bullet points, either people don�¢??t have the intellect to accept this as fact, or they are so ignorant they can�¢??t be reasoned with and should just be left alone to do curls in a the squat rack until the executioner comes knocking.

Go back way before planets were formed. What does science say about the the universe being created. And if there was no universe because it wasnt created yet what was there?. Why stop with the earth being created?. What was there? If there was just a void, what created that? Sounds like intelligent design to me. We could get into planets revolving around others, better yet the planets bumped into each other until they evolved and became intelligent so now they revolve exactly where they should and havent moved since. Evolutionists rely too heavily on miracles that happen on their own. These are huge miracles to say the least in that something with no intelligence fixed itself on its own or created itself on its own. [/quote]

Did you even read that post before ‘responding’ to it?

205

I love how everyone who doesn’t accept evolution is automatically deemed “ignorant,” and the only possible explanation for their denial must be a lack of logic/intelligence. The concept of a creator in some form or another was near universally accepted for thousands of years. As human beings we lack true creativity. Even our most brilliant artists can only manipulate the things that they have experienced with their own senses. If no deity existed man would be able to conceive one no better than a color that is not in the visible light spectra. The concept alone is too far removed from human experience. Science is the practice of understanding our physical world through observation and experiment.

Since its rather difficult to reproduce evolution experimentally, researchers must rely on observation alone in this particular category of science. Now here is where people will either think a little or get extremely defensive. In all branches of science, since observations are typically difficult to interpret, scientists use their IMAGINATIONS to develop their hypothesis. They then use experiment to test these hypothesis. It is unfortunate for evolutionists that this experimentation isn’t possible. Observation is all there is to go off of. The rest is imagined. Science is continually proving itself wrong THROUGH EXPERIMENT. Isaac Newton was considered a madman by his contemporary’s who believed physical knowledge had reached it’s limit.

Later Newtons laws were generally excepted as absolute truth and were proven experimentally time and time again. We were later shown by Einstein that Newtonian mechanics, as well as Galilean relativity, are not universal truths and have very narrow ranges. For many years aether was believed to be the medium for light propagation in the universe. This was found to be incorrect after experimentation was unable to detect any properties of aether and ultimately Einstein made a better case for the properties of light.

My main point is that evolution is not a proven phenomena. When you say “except evolution, its scientifically proven,” you should probably be saying “accept evolution, its philosophically appealing.” People who choose to hold a creationist view have a faith in some greater power, and the intuition of all mankind throughout history. People who believe evolutionism are putting their faith in the flawed imaginations of scientists and philosophers who are unable to support their inclinations with experimentation. I have nothing against you if this is what you choose to have faith in, but don’t kid yourself in thinking that science blatantly supports your belief.

206

[quote]Doc L wrote:
Chuck24 wrote:
It also assumes that God is this mean individual who will punish anyone who does not believe. Really? A being with all the power in the universe gets mad if a mere human doesn’t believe? That’s laughable.

God will punish eternally anyone who doesnt believe Christ his son died on the cross and he who doesnt repent of sins and turn their back on them. Its a realtionship with Christ. Not a sitting in church on Sundays. Church dont get you to heaven. A relationship does. God actually HAS given you a choice on where your eternal destiny will be. Hes a HOLY God who wont tolerate sin. Before Christ died you didnt have a choice. Christ didnt just die and thats was it. When on the cross Jesus took Gods angry viscious wrath in just 3 hours which would have been eternal hell for 1 beleiver. But took eternal Hell for everyone who would believe in 3 hours and then died when God was finished with him. Only an eternal being was capable of this. Im trying to explain this to you and not so much trying to preach to you. So its more constructive discussion. I hope you take it that way.

So according to this belief system, the Jews (God’s chosen ppl, who don’t believe that Christ is the Son of God) are going to hell? Even if they are devout and follow God’s law?[/quote]

If this is what they beleive then what you ask is correct. Scripture teaches the only way to the father is through his son Jesus Christ. There is no other way. I can only give you what is written. These are not my opinions.

207

I find it funny how if someone doesn’t believe in evolution(in terms of all living beings having a common ancestor) they are treated as if they don’t believe in gravity. There are certain sciences which are in general much more concrete and thus termed hard sciences such as chemistry and physics up to a certain point, to equate the theory of evolution being verified to the same level of scrutiny as atomic theory and general relativity is dishonest. Anything more certain than that is found in the proofs of mathematics.

208

[quote]BrownTrout wrote:
I love how everyone who doesn’t accept evolution is automatically deemed “ignorant,” and the only possible explanation for their denial must be a lack of logic/intelligence. [/quote]

The evidence is too large for people to not accept it. I guess you can choose to believe that a plane flies on magic, but many people might consider you ‘ignorant’.

It was also ‘universally accepted’ that you can shit in the same water you drink from, and that it was ok to own slaves.

I don’t understand what you are trying to say here. I think it is probably because of the way you worded it.

[quote]
Since its rather difficult to reproduce evolution experimentally, researchers must rely on observation alone in this particular category of science. Now here is where people will either think a little or get extremely defensive. In all branches of science, since observations are typically difficult to interpret, scientists use their IMAGINATIONS to develop their hypothesis. They then use experiment to test these hypothesis. It is unfortunate for evolutionists that this experimentation isn’t possible. Observation is all there is to go off of. The rest is imagined. Science is continually proving itself wrong THROUGH EXPERIMENT. Isaac Newton was considered a madman by his contemporary’s who believed physical knowledge had reached it’s limit. [/quote]

They actually do perform experiments that have backed up evolution. The E. Coli project is a huge example of this. It is impossible for a ‘scientific theory’ to be a ‘scientific theory’ without thorough experimentation.

[quote]Later Newtons laws were generally excepted as absolute truth and were proven experimentally time and time again. We were later shown by Einstein that Newtonian mechanics, as well as Galilean relativity, are not universal truths and have very narrow ranges. For many years aether was believed to be the medium for light propagation in the universe. This was found to be incorrect after experimentation was unable to detect any properties of aether and ultimately Einstein made a better case for the properties of light.

My main point is that evolution is not a proven phenomena. When you say “except evolution, its scientifically proven,” you should probably be saying “accept evolution, its philosophically appealing.” People who choose to hold a creationist view have a faith in some greater power, and the intuition of all mankind throughout history. People who believe evolutionism are putting their faith in the flawed imaginations of scientists and philosophers who are unable to support their inclinations with experimentation. I have nothing against you if this is what you choose to have faith in, but don’t kid yourself in thinking that science blatantly supports your belief.[/quote]

Er… sorry, it is scientifically proven.
And Newton’s laws are still widely accepted. It is true that we have improved on the specifics of these findings, as scientists are doing everyday, even with evolution. The reason I accept evolution is because it isn’t based in ‘imagination’. All religions are, though.

209

[quote]Chuck24 wrote:
It also assumes that God is this mean individual who will punish anyone who does not believe. Really? A being with all the power in the universe gets mad if a mere human doesn’t believe? That’s laughable.

God will punish eternally anyone who doesnt believe Christ his son died on the cross and he who doesnt repent of sins and turn their back on them. Its a realtionship with Christ. Not a sitting in church on Sundays. Church dont get you to heaven. A relationship does. God actually HAS given you a choice on where your eternal destiny will be. Hes a HOLY God who wont tolerate sin. Before Christ died you didnt have a choice. Christ didnt just die and thats was it. When on the cross Jesus took Gods angry viscious wrath in just 3 hours which would have been eternal hell for 1 beleiver. But took eternal Hell for everyone who would believe in 3 hours and then died when God was finished with him. Only an eternal being was capable of this. Im trying to explain this to you and not so much trying to preach to you. So its more constructive discussion. I hope you take it that way.

I believe in sort of a reverse Pascal’s Wager. I reject all organized religions as corrupt and just try to live a good life. I don’t know if there is a god or not - I don’t reject the possibility that there may be a god, I just don’t know. The way I see, once I die, and there is a divine being out there, that being would be intelligent enough to realize that what counts most is that I lived a decent life and helped others, not whether or not I went to a special building for one hour every Sunday and holidays.[/quote]

I understand that you were trying to start a discussion and not preach, but this sounds like the same old fire and brimstone sermon. I tend to believe that if there is a being such as God, that being would be supremely logical and rational. It makes no sense that a logical being would create humans only to want to punish them. It makes no sense that a logical being would have a “son” and then let that son die by torture. This view of God makes God look really cruel and mean.

This is the same Catholic guilt that I grew up with and it’s why I not only left the Catholic Church, which I think is a corrupt institution run by pedophiles, but why I distrust all organized religion. I realize that I’m human and not perfect. I get it. But that doesn’t mean I’m “bad” or “unclean” or whatever other adjectives there are. Compared to rapists and child molestors, I’m a saint.

210

[quote]BrownTrout wrote:
I love how everyone who doesn’t accept evolution is automatically deemed “ignorant,” and the only possible explanation for their denial must be a lack of logic/intelligence.

Science is continually proving itself wrong THROUGH EXPERIMENT. Isaac Newton was considered a madman by his contemporary’s who believed physical knowledge had reached it’s limit.

My main point is that evolution is not a proven phenomena. When you say “except evolution, its scientifically proven,” you should probably be saying “accept evolution, its philosophically appealing.” [/quote]

My beef is that people clearly do not understand science. Science does not prove itself wrong… Science is a process by which people try and understand the world. It is not a content area (i.e., physics, chemistry, etc). Science cannot prove itself wrong.

I wish that before people enter into this argument, they would understand how science works, before they make claims about it.

jnd

211

[quote]Chuck24 wrote:

So according to this belief system, the Jews (God’s chosen ppl, who don’t believe that Christ is the Son of God) are going to hell? Even if they are devout and follow God’s law?

If this is what they beleive then what you ask is correct. Scripture teaches the only way to the father is through his son Jesus Christ. There is no other way. I can only give you what is written. These are not my opinions.
[/quote]

The bible also says god is fair and just. But there’s nothing self evident about Jesus being the only way to salvation. So either your passage in Romans is incorrect, or the passages that claim god is fair and just are incorrect. Which is it, and how do you know?

212

[quote]Makavali wrote:
alexisonfireuk wrote:
don’t be so obtuse, if the book was written thousands of years ago of course some of it is going to be primitive, that’s what i said before. people who take the book literally without taking into account technological and social advances of the last 2000 years are the reason for this whole debate in the first place.
however we can still take the message of peace and respect from it.

And stoning adulterers. Look, if we can agree it’s made up we can agree the desire and ideals of being altruistic and “good” come from another source than a magic space genie.[/quote]

im not saying good comes from god, what im saying is its possible to look at the bible in a C21st view and take the points about being kind to others and treating them how you want to be treated and use that in our everyday lives to make it a better place to live.

lots of the bible is contradictory and out of date, however to shun every message in there because its made up seems stupid. it doesn;t matter where the message is coming from to a degree, its about what it is.

213

[quote]alexisonfireuk wrote:
Makavali wrote:
alexisonfireuk wrote:
don’t be so obtuse, if the book was written thousands of years ago of course some of it is going to be primitive, that’s what i said before. people who take the book literally without taking into account technological and social advances of the last 2000 years are the reason for this whole debate in the first place.
however we can still take the message of peace and respect from it.

And stoning adulterers. Look, if we can agree it’s made up we can agree the desire and ideals of being altruistic and “good” come from another source than a magic space genie.

im not saying good comes from god, what im saying is its possible to look at the bible in a C21st view and take the points about being kind to others and treating them how you want to be treated and use that in our everyday lives to make it a better place to live.

lots of the bible is contradictory and out of date, however to shun every message in there because its made up seems stupid. it doesn;t matter where the message is coming from to a degree, its about what it is.

[/quote]

Shun the book, the message was always there: Do Unto Others.

My point is you don’t NEED the book.

214

[quote]Chuck24 wrote:

Go back way before planets were formed. What does science say about the the universe being created. And if there was no universe because it wasnt created yet what was there?. Why stop with the earth being created?. What was there? If there was just a void, what created that? Sounds like intelligent design to me. We could get into planets revolving around others, better yet the planets bumped into each other until they evolved and became intelligent so now they revolve exactly where they should and havent moved since. Evolutionists rely too heavily on miracles that happen on their own. These are huge miracles to say the least in that something with no intelligence fixed itself on its own or created itself on its own. [/quote]

lol WTF? ok i guess you didn’t read my post, so im going to address the points you raised as im not sure where your going with them.

To answer your random statement:
From what i can gather about modern physics, the leading theory is that the universe (and this dimension) is a membrane of something larger, with other dimensions being other membranes. When two membranes contacted for whatever reason, the resulting energy and matter caused the big bang to happen. this is a very very simplified explanation, and im sure you can agree with me that its also only a theory. But it does go a way to explain things.

(in a very rough explanation) From that initial event, the universe expanded, then slowed down and cooled, matter began to collect due to gravity which eventually made the stars and planets. Our own planet was much too small to start with, then collided with another planet smaller then itself, creating the earth as the size we know it now, and the moon which was made up of the debris.
So now we have a planet in perfect position for life, with a sun perfect for life.
you may shout well thatâ??s just what god did and you may be right, but there is a mathematical toll called the law of large numbers, which can be used to say that given there are millions and millions of galaxies, millions more suns, millions more planets, then mathematically there is a chance this planet along with others could be in the perfect position for life to flourish.
You say evolution relies too much on miracles, but mathematically it is plausible, more plausible then there being a being of supreme power that created everything. For instance bacteria learn to adapt and evolve so that antibiotics no longer affect them. This is because given the millions and millions of bacteria, genetically there will be an abnormality that will be resistant (coincidence) and because the others die it flourishes as there is more recourses for it. This is evolution.

In a very basic sense, our planet was lucky to be in the right position, but given the amount of planets in the universe, its no miracle.
Even more lucky that life evolved, but again not impossible.
Say at some point the right chemicals and matter managed to collide in a way to form basic RNA or DNA, then these managed to bond with others to create the first natural life, sure its unlikely, but its not impossible, and given the almost unlimited number or planets and chances for it to happen, it is plausible it would happen somewhere. This somewhere happened to be earth, although there could be other planets out there where its happening right now.

Overall evolution and life is very much down to coincidence, but due to the large numbers were dealing with, the creation of life by itself is no way impossible.

215

[quote]Makavali wrote:

Shun the book, the message was always there: Do Unto Others.

My point is you don’t NEED the book.[/quote]

i never said you did, what im saying is that you “can” take a message of peace and respect from the book to help you become a better person. its not an argument, but a fact

216

[quote]alexisonfireuk wrote:
Chuck24 wrote:

Go back way before planets were formed. What does science say about the the universe being created. And if there was no universe because it wasnt created yet what was there?. Why stop with the earth being created?. What was there? If there was just a void, what created that? Sounds like intelligent design to me. We could get into planets revolving around others, better yet the planets bumped into each other until they evolved and became intelligent so now they revolve exactly where they should and havent moved since. Evolutionists rely too heavily on miracles that happen on their own. These are huge miracles to say the least in that something with no intelligence fixed itself on its own or created itself on its own.

lol WTF? ok i guess you didn’t read my post, so im going to address the points you raised as im not sure where your going with them.

To answer your random statement:
From what i can gather about modern physics, the leading theory is that the universe (and this dimension) is a membrane of something larger, with other dimensions being other membranes. When two membranes contacted for whatever reason, the resulting energy and matter caused the big bang to happen. this is a very very simplified explanation, and im sure you can agree with me that its also only a theory. But it does go a way to explain things.

(in a very rough explanation) From that initial event, the universe expanded, then slowed down and cooled, matter began to collect due to gravity which eventually made the stars and planets. Our own planet was much too small to start with, then collided with another planet smaller then itself, creating the earth as the size we know it now, and the moon which was made up of the debris.
So now we have a planet in perfect position for life, with a sun perfect for life.
you may shout well thatâ??s just what god did and you may be right, but there is a mathematical toll called the law of large numbers, which can be used to say that given there are millions and millions of galaxies, millions more suns, millions more planets, then mathematically there is a chance this planet along with others could be in the perfect position for life to flourish.
You say evolution relies too much on miracles, but mathematically it is plausible, more plausible then there being a being of supreme power that created everything. For instance bacteria learn to adapt and evolve so that antibiotics no longer affect them. This is because given the millions and millions of bacteria, genetically there will be an abnormality that will be resistant (coincidence) and because the others die it flourishes as there is more recourses for it. This is evolution.

In a very basic sense, our planet was lucky to be in the right position, but given the amount of planets in the universe, its no miracle.
Even more lucky that life evolved, but again not impossible.
Say at some point the right chemicals and matter managed to collide in a way to form basic RNA or DNA, then these managed to bond with others to create the first natural life, sure its unlikely, but its not impossible, and given the almost unlimited number or planets and chances for it to happen, it is plausible it would happen somewhere. This somewhere happened to be earth, although there could be other planets out there where its happening right now.

Overall evolution and life is very much down to coincidence, but due to the large numbers were dealing with, the creation of life by itself is no way impossible.
[/quote]

Ah, string theory. Membranes, 11 dimensions, and many universes. I love that stuff.

217

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

Ah, string theory. Membranes, 11 dimensions, and many universes. I love that stuff.[/quote]

indeed, im hoping to become the worlds first bodybuilding geek :smiley:
i’ll crack out a few 2.5xBW deads, thens sit down and muse over “the elegant universe” and M-theory, while supping at a protein shake.

218

[quote]MikeTheBear wrote:

Ah, string theory. Membranes, 11 dimensions, and many universes. I love that stuff.[/quote]

I do believe I heart you Mr. Bear.

219

[quote]Chuck24 wrote:
Doc L wrote:
Chuck24 wrote:
It also assumes that God is this mean individual who will punish anyone who does not believe. Really? A being with all the power in the universe gets mad if a mere human doesn’t believe? That’s laughable.

God will punish eternally anyone who doesnt believe Christ his son died on the cross and he who doesnt repent of sins and turn their back on them. Its a realtionship with Christ. Not a sitting in church on Sundays. Church dont get you to heaven. A relationship does. God actually HAS given you a choice on where your eternal destiny will be. Hes a HOLY God who wont tolerate sin. Before Christ died you didnt have a choice. Christ didnt just die and thats was it. When on the cross Jesus took Gods angry viscious wrath in just 3 hours which would have been eternal hell for 1 beleiver. But took eternal Hell for everyone who would believe in 3 hours and then died when God was finished with him. Only an eternal being was capable of this. Im trying to explain this to you and not so much trying to preach to you. So its more constructive discussion. I hope you take it that way.

So according to this belief system, the Jews (God’s chosen ppl, who don’t believe that Christ is the Son of God) are going to hell? Even if they are devout and follow God’s law?

If this is what they beleive then what you ask is correct. Scripture teaches the only way to the father is through his son Jesus Christ. There is no other way. I can only give you what is written. These are not my opinions.
[/quote]

God has a covenant with the Jews and they are still his chosen people. That is why christians protect israel. Prophecy says those who persecute them will receive it worse in return.

For those who aren’t Jews the only way to God is through Jesus Christ. He is the mediator, he paid our sacrifice.

As far as evolution , darwinian’s concept of slow evolution has already been disproven. If you don’t get it read “Origin of the Sepcies” then take as example the heart, or the lungs any of these complex organs necesarry for survival.

220

[quote]mbm693 wrote:
Chuck24 wrote:

So according to this belief system, the Jews (God’s chosen ppl, who don’t believe that Christ is the Son of God) are going to hell? Even if they are devout and follow God’s law?

If this is what they beleive then what you ask is correct. Scripture teaches the only way to the father is through his son Jesus Christ. There is no other way. I can only give you what is written. These are not my opinions.

The bible also says god is fair and just. But there’s nothing self evident about Jesus being the only way to salvation. So either your passage in Romans is incorrect, or the passages that claim god is fair and just are incorrect. Which is it, and how do you know?[/quote]

What are you talking about, you obviously have no bible knowlegde.

A fair and just God will punish you to hell. Just because you love someone and want them to do as you say doesn’t mean you don’t punish them for not. Like a father to a child.

John 14:6
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

um yeah so Jesus is not the only way to God. Sorry you lose. But thank you for playing.

The bible does not contradict itself, the problem is people use it out of context to defend there ideas. Which are not biblical.