[quote]orion wrote:
Dont you find it telling that noone has even adressed how taxation is not a form of slavery?
[/quote]
Because to be a slave is to be owned. It is to be property. To pay taxes is to be a member of a society. To pay taxes assumes you have something to pay from…property/wealth. You have that property wealth, ultimately, because of society. There’s not even such a thing as ‘private property’ without the consent of society (or at least the suppression of the non-consenting), as no man created earth, air, or ocean. [/quote]
[quote]orion wrote:
Dont you find it telling that noone has even adressed how taxation is not a form of slavery?
[/quote]
Because to be a slave is to be owned. It is to be property. To pay taxes is to be a member of a society. To pay taxes assumes you have something to pay from…property/wealth. You have that property wealth, ultimately, because of society. There’s not even such a thing as ‘private property’ without the consent of society (or at least the suppression of the non-consenting), as no man created earth, air, or ocean. [/quote]
So people who don’t pay taxes are…?[/quote]
People who don’t pay taxes…[/quote]
by what you said they aren’t society members.[/quote]
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Allow me to defeat the Austrians with their own perverted use of the word, “slavery.” Since none created the raw resources of this earth, no man has any real claim to it. A person who wants to own a mine privately is no more correct than those who want it owned collectively. Each will have to rely on force (or the threat of). We are simply born into the assumption that a single man can own vast resources he didn’t create. We weren’t there to agree to boundries, and to how resources would be used. Since land and resources are sold, traded, and used without the uncoerced consent of everyone, capitalism makes us slaves of others. Oh noes![/quote]
The raw material may not be created by man, but man gets it out of the ground, man refines it, man shapes it, man gives it value.
The earth never EVER had a naturally occurring mining business. And the mining business is what creates the wealth. not the raw material.[/quote]
And? That doesn’t address who OWNS the raw materials before we even get to how those materials are used, and how profits are distributed.
the “theft of work” rhetoric
value and property defined by human labor and human labor only.
labor defined as the intelligent transformation of Nature by Man.
[quote]orion wrote:
Dont you find it telling that noone has even adressed how taxation is not a form of slavery?
[/quote]
Because to be a slave is to be owned. It is to be property. To pay taxes is to be a member of a society. To pay taxes assumes you have something to pay from…property/wealth. You have that property wealth, ultimately, because of society. There’s not even such a thing as ‘private property’ without the consent of society (or at least the suppression of the non-consenting), as no man created earth, air, or ocean. [/quote]
So people who don’t pay taxes are…?[/quote]
People who don’t pay taxes…[/quote]
by what you said they aren’t society members.[/quote]
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Allow me to defeat the Austrians with their own perverted use of the word, “slavery.” Since none created the raw resources of this earth, no man has any real claim to it. A person who wants to own a mine privately is no more correct than those who want it owned collectively. Each will have to rely on force (or the threat of). We are simply born into the assumption that a single man can own vast resources he didn’t create. We weren’t there to agree to boundries, and to how resources would be used. Since land and resources are sold, traded, and used without the uncoerced consent of everyone, capitalism makes us slaves of others. Oh noes![/quote]
The raw material may not be created by man, but man gets it out of the ground, man refines it, man shapes it, man gives it value.
The earth never EVER had a naturally occurring mining business. And the mining business is what creates the wealth. not the raw material.[/quote]
And? That doesn’t address who OWNS the raw materials before we even get to how those materials are used, and how profits are distributed. [/quote]
[quote]kamui wrote:
it doesn’t means it’s the only way to be a member of a society. [/quote]
Yes, it does, the way it was worded. That sentiment would be better expressed saying “productive people paying taxes is a necessity of living in society.” or something like that, but it isn’t what was said.
2+2 IS (equal to) 4. That statement dictates also that 4 IS 2+2. paying taxes IS being a member of society. Therefore, being a member of society IS paying taxes.
[quote]orion wrote:
Dont you find it telling that noone has even adressed how taxation is not a form of slavery?
[/quote]
Because to be a slave is to be owned. It is to be property. To pay taxes is to be a member of a society. To pay taxes assumes you have something to pay from…property/wealth. You have that property wealth, ultimately, because of society. There’s not even such a thing as ‘private property’ without the consent of society (or at least the suppression of the non-consenting), as no man created earth, air, or ocean. [/quote]
So people who don’t pay taxes are…?[/quote]
People who don’t pay taxes…[/quote]
by what you said they aren’t society members.[/quote]
Not what I said.[/quote]
“To pay taxes is to be a member of a society”
You said “is” equating the 2. Did you miss speak?[/quote]
No. You’re always obligated to pay taxes if you’re due to pay taxes. If you’re not, you’re not.
[quote]orion wrote:
Dont you find it telling that noone has even adressed how taxation is not a form of slavery?
[/quote]
Because to be a slave is to be owned. It is to be property. To pay taxes is to be a member of a society. To pay taxes assumes you have something to pay from…property/wealth. You have that property wealth, ultimately, because of society. There’s not even such a thing as ‘private property’ without the consent of society (or at least the suppression of the non-consenting), as no man created earth, air, or ocean. [/quote]
So people who don’t pay taxes are…?[/quote]
People who don’t pay taxes…[/quote]
by what you said they aren’t society members.[/quote]
Not what I said.[/quote]
“To pay taxes is to be a member of a society”
You said “is” equating the 2. Did you miss speak?[/quote]
No. You’re always obligated to pay taxes if you’re due to pay taxes. If you’re not, you’re not.[/quote]
“if you’re due to pay taxes”
Are you claiming it’s equal requirement, just more equal for some?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Allow me to defeat the Austrians with their own perverted use of the word, “slavery.” Since none created the raw resources of this earth, no man has any real claim to it. A person who wants to own a mine privately is no more correct than those who want it owned collectively. Each will have to rely on force (or the threat of). We are simply born into the assumption that a single man can own vast resources he didn’t create. We weren’t there to agree to boundries, and to how resources would be used. Since land and resources are sold, traded, and used without the uncoerced consent of everyone, capitalism makes us slaves of others. Oh noes![/quote]
The raw material may not be created by man, but man gets it out of the ground, man refines it, man shapes it, man gives it value.
The earth never EVER had a naturally occurring mining business. And the mining business is what creates the wealth. not the raw material.[/quote]
And? That doesn’t address who OWNS the raw materials before we even get to how those materials are used, and how profits are distributed. [/quote]
Who puts in the work to get them and use them?[/quote]
Whatever a society, or powerful enough regimem determines. And since not everyone will consent in spirit, no matter what economic system arises, I guess those discontent are made slaves.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Allow me to defeat the Austrians with their own perverted use of the word, “slavery.” Since none created the raw resources of this earth, no man has any real claim to it. A person who wants to own a mine privately is no more correct than those who want it owned collectively. Each will have to rely on force (or the threat of). We are simply born into the assumption that a single man can own vast resources he didn’t create. We weren’t there to agree to boundries, and to how resources would be used. Since land and resources are sold, traded, and used without the uncoerced consent of everyone, capitalism makes us slaves of others. Oh noes![/quote]
The raw material may not be created by man, but man gets it out of the ground, man refines it, man shapes it, man gives it value.
The earth never EVER had a naturally occurring mining business. And the mining business is what creates the wealth. not the raw material.[/quote]
And? That doesn’t address who OWNS the raw materials before we even get to how those materials are used, and how profits are distributed. [/quote]
Who puts in the work to get them and use them?[/quote]
Whatever a society, or powerful enough regimem determines. And since not everyone will consent in spirit, no matter what economic system arises, I guess those discontent are made slaves.[/quote]
“society, or powerful enough regimem determines”
^Is there a difference? Which is exactly the point I’ve been making.
[quote]orion wrote:
Dont you find it telling that noone has even adressed how taxation is not a form of slavery?
[/quote]
Because to be a slave is to be owned. It is to be property. To pay taxes is to be a member of a society. To pay taxes assumes you have something to pay from…property/wealth. You have that property wealth, ultimately, because of society. There’s not even such a thing as ‘private property’ without the consent of society (or at least the suppression of the non-consenting), as no man created earth, air, or ocean. [/quote]
So people who don’t pay taxes are…?[/quote]
People who don’t pay taxes…[/quote]
by what you said they aren’t society members.[/quote]
Not what I said.[/quote]
“To pay taxes is to be a member of a society”
You said “is” equating the 2. Did you miss speak?[/quote]
No. You’re always obligated to pay taxes if you’re due to pay taxes. If you’re not, you’re not.[/quote]
“if you’re due to pay taxes”
Are you claiming it’s equal requirement, just more equal for some?[/quote]
No. I’m saying that even those not currently paying taxes are obligated to if their situation changes.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Allow me to defeat the Austrians with their own perverted use of the word, “slavery.” Since none created the raw resources of this earth, no man has any real claim to it. A person who wants to own a mine privately is no more correct than those who want it owned collectively. Each will have to rely on force (or the threat of). We are simply born into the assumption that a single man can own vast resources he didn’t create. We weren’t there to agree to boundries, and to how resources would be used. Since land and resources are sold, traded, and used without the uncoerced consent of everyone, capitalism makes us slaves of others. Oh noes![/quote]
The raw material may not be created by man, but man gets it out of the ground, man refines it, man shapes it, man gives it value.
The earth never EVER had a naturally occurring mining business. And the mining business is what creates the wealth. not the raw material.[/quote]
And? That doesn’t address who OWNS the raw materials before we even get to how those materials are used, and how profits are distributed. [/quote]
Who puts in the work to get them and use them?[/quote]
Whatever a society, or powerful enough regimem determines. And since not everyone will consent in spirit, no matter what economic system arises, I guess those discontent are made slaves.[/quote]
“society, or powerful enough regimem determines”
^Is there a difference? Which is exactly the point I’ve been making.[/quote]
[quote]orion wrote:
Dont you find it telling that noone has even adressed how taxation is not a form of slavery?
[/quote]
Because to be a slave is to be owned. It is to be property. To pay taxes is to be a member of a society. To pay taxes assumes you have something to pay from…property/wealth. You have that property wealth, ultimately, because of society. There’s not even such a thing as ‘private property’ without the consent of society (or at least the suppression of the non-consenting), as no man created earth, air, or ocean. [/quote]
So people who don’t pay taxes are…?[/quote]
People who don’t pay taxes…[/quote]
by what you said they aren’t society members.[/quote]
Not what I said.[/quote]
“To pay taxes is to be a member of a society”
You said “is” equating the 2. Did you miss speak?[/quote]
No. You’re always obligated to pay taxes if you’re due to pay taxes. If you’re not, you’re not.[/quote]
“if you’re due to pay taxes”
Are you claiming it’s equal requirement, just more equal for some?[/quote]
No. I’m saying that even those not currently paying taxes are obligated to if their situation changes.[/quote]
So they get to be society members because they are being required to not pay taxes?
[quote]orion wrote:
Dont you find it telling that noone has even adressed how taxation is not a form of slavery?
[/quote]
Because to be a slave is to be owned. It is to be property. To pay taxes is to be a member of a society. To pay taxes assumes you have something to pay from…property/wealth. You have that property wealth, ultimately, because of society. There’s not even such a thing as ‘private property’ without the consent of society (or at least the suppression of the non-consenting), as no man created earth, air, or ocean. [/quote]
So people who don’t pay taxes are…?[/quote]
People who don’t pay taxes…[/quote]
by what you said they aren’t society members.[/quote]
Not what I said.[/quote]
“To pay taxes is to be a member of a society”
You said “is” equating the 2. Did you miss speak?[/quote]
No. You’re always obligated to pay taxes if you’re due to pay taxes. If you’re not, you’re not.[/quote]
“if you’re due to pay taxes”
Are you claiming it’s equal requirement, just more equal for some?[/quote]
No. I’m saying that even those not currently paying taxes are obligated to if their situation changes.[/quote]
So they get to be society members because they are being required to not pay taxes?[/quote]
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Ownership by homesteading means one can take possession of property and mix ones labor with it.
Since you cannot put “the entire New World” to use with your labor you cannot own it.[/quote]
So, now we have a narrowed definition to use. A nonsense definition, but we’ll visit that in a second. Ok, now you need the consent of society and the suppresion of those who won’t consent to how you and others think natural resoures should be allocated. There is no commandment on Mt. Olympus for you to point to and say "See, homesteading-claiming possesion of ‘property’ for which one wishes to labor over-has been decreed by Econimus, God of resource allocation.
Back to why it’s nonsense. How can one take possesion of property, so that they may put labor into it in order to posses it? [/quote]
But this is exactly how all civilizations began. People mixed their labor with land and over time, voila, farming, industry, the arts and sciences all came about – and here we are.
Resources can only be economized by the owners who use them. That is what it means to economize.[/quote]
By the way, I thought deciding not to act (to do nothing with property) was also ‘human action?’[/quote]
It is but one can only economize one’s own property. Deciding not to do something with someone else’s property is nonsensical.
To economize means to decided how a resource is to be used or if it should be used at all. One cannot economize something that is not self owned.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Allow me to defeat the Austrians with their own perverted use of the word, “slavery.” Since none created the raw resources of this earth, no man has any real claim to it. A person who wants to own a mine privately is no more correct than those who want it owned collectively. Each will have to rely on force (or the threat of). We are simply born into the assumption that a single man can own vast resources he didn’t create. We weren’t there to agree to boundries, and to how resources would be used. Since land and resources are sold, traded, and used without the uncoerced consent of everyone, capitalism makes us slaves of others. Oh noes![/quote]
The raw material may not be created by man, but man gets it out of the ground, man refines it, man shapes it, man gives it value.
The earth never EVER had a naturally occurring mining business. And the mining business is what creates the wealth. not the raw material.[/quote]
And? That doesn’t address who OWNS the raw materials before we even get to how those materials are used, and how profits are distributed. [/quote]
Who puts in the work to get them and use them?[/quote]
Whatever a society, or powerful enough regimem determines. And since not everyone will consent in spirit, no matter what economic system arises, I guess those discontent are made slaves.[/quote]
“society, or powerful enough regimem determines”
^Is there a difference? Which is exactly the point I’ve been making.[/quote]
Quality of life.[/quote]
How exactly would you go about separating the 2 on that basis? some societies (governments) cause horrible qualities of life.
To economize means to decided how a resource is to be used or if it should be used at all. One cannot economize something that is not self owned.[/quote]
Then one could’ve claimed the New World and simply decided not to the vast, vast, majority of it.