[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Is the Catholic church aware that a large majority of embryos created through conventional means fail to implant and die out, and that of those that do manage to implant, many later spontaneously miscarry? It seems hypocritical to label someone a mortal sinner while then advocating conventional sex, which is remarkably inefficient. The entire process of conception is a crap shoot and IVF is no different. [/quote]
You do not see the difference?
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Is the Catholic church aware that a large majority of embryos created through conventional means fail to implant and die out, and that of those that do manage to implant, many later spontaneously miscarry? It seems hypocritical to label someone a mortal sinner while then advocating conventional sex, which is remarkably inefficient. The entire process of conception is a crap shoot and IVF is no different. [/quote]
Do you also disagree with the distinction the law defines between manslaughter and murder? [/quote]
Clearly two different things. One is fully developed human being and the other is a beginning organism with an already abysmal failure rate.[/quote]
So because it’s not fully developed it’s not a person and not deserving respect? Cool, infanticide it is!
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Is the Catholic church aware that a large majority of embryos created through conventional means fail to implant and die out, and that of those that do manage to implant, many later spontaneously miscarry? It seems hypocritical to label someone a mortal sinner while then advocating conventional sex, which is remarkably inefficient. The entire process of conception is a crap shoot and IVF is no different. [/quote]
You do not see the difference?[/quote]
There is no difference. If you actively have unprotected sex the chances are you create many embryos that never implant. This is no different than IVF. Show me how they are different?
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Is the Catholic church aware that a large majority of embryos created through conventional means fail to implant and die out, and that of those that do manage to implant, many later spontaneously miscarry? It seems hypocritical to label someone a mortal sinner while then advocating conventional sex, which is remarkably inefficient. The entire process of conception is a crap shoot and IVF is no different. [/quote]
Do you also disagree with the distinction the law defines between manslaughter and murder? [/quote]
Clearly two different things. One is fully developed human being and the other is a beginning organism with an already abysmal failure rate.[/quote]
Okay, since it is so “clearly” obvious, if you could just state for us in a sentence or two the specific differences between an embryo and an adult, it would really help us to understand your position better.
On a side note, about 100 million Russians and eastern Europeans, among others, had a pretty abysmal failure rate, too. Guess we can write all of those off as just, like, you know, dude, uhh, what?
[/quote]
Highest infant mortality rate in the world is in Afghanistan at roughly 12%. Mortality rate of “implanted” embryos is 30% and the mortality rate of non-implanted embryos is at lowest 66% possibly even higher.
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Is the Catholic church aware that a large majority of embryos created through conventional means fail to implant and die out, and that of those that do manage to implant, many later spontaneously miscarry? It seems hypocritical to label someone a mortal sinner while then advocating conventional sex, which is remarkably inefficient. The entire process of conception is a crap shoot and IVF is no different. [/quote]
You do not see the difference?[/quote]
There is no difference. If you actively have unprotected sex the chances are you create many embryos that never implant. This is no different than IVF. Show me how they are different?[/quote]
Let me ask you, what’s the difference between shooting grandma full of morphine so she starves to death and letting her die naturally?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Is the Catholic church aware that a large majority of embryos created through conventional means fail to implant and die out, and that of those that do manage to implant, many later spontaneously miscarry? It seems hypocritical to label someone a mortal sinner while then advocating conventional sex, which is remarkably inefficient. The entire process of conception is a crap shoot and IVF is no different. [/quote]
You do not see the difference?[/quote]
There is no difference. If you actively have unprotected sex the chances are you create many embryos that never implant. This is no different than IVF. Show me how they are different?[/quote]
Let me ask you, what’s the difference between shooting grandma full of morphine so she starves to death and letting her die naturally?[/quote]
That is irrelevant because no one is shooting the embryos full of morphine, they are attempting to make a child. In both natural conception and IVF the death of the embryo is both natural and highly probable. The only difference is the means by which the embryo is created and reaches the uterus.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:<<< If we accept logical empiricism >>>[/quote]You need to pop in over at the epistemology thread and tell us why you accept this. If you simply scoff at the idea that this question could even be asked you REALLY need to pop in over at the epistemology thread and tell us why you accept this.
[/quote]
Doesn’t matter. He’s an egotistical paranoid bigot. If you try to convince him otherwise, you’re a jewish illuminati catholic mason who owns the media. HH Fact.[/quote]
Nah…you just hate science, Man, technology, life…in favour of cringing in a mud hut hoping that some demon doesn’t come and carry you off to the Hell you invented. [/quote]
Thing is, you are incapable of defending any of this, Not sure what happened to you over the past few years. You used to be razor sharp, if contentious. You were at least able to clearly articulate and defend your positions and often your opponents were reduced to using logical fallacies to try and defend their positions against you. Now almost every post is either a string of fallacies or incoherencies. Often both.
Now it seems you are just on a mission to alienate yourself from as many members of this site as you can. Like an old, drunken, bitter, maudlin Pitttbulll. But with better spelling and grammar.
[/quote]
Stating the obvious needs no defending.
If you can’t see that Faith and Reason are enemies, polar opposites, then I can’t help you no matter how eloquent I become.
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Is the Catholic church aware that a large majority of embryos created through conventional means fail to implant and die out, and that of those that do manage to implant, many later spontaneously miscarry? It seems hypocritical to label someone a mortal sinner while then advocating conventional sex, which is remarkably inefficient. The entire process of conception is a crap shoot and IVF is no different. [/quote]Are you aware that ALL organisms including humans die at some point in the finite future and that therefore holding a man responsible for intentionally causing the same must then by your murky logic be deemed hypocritical? Eat a bit less beef and bit more fish. It’ll power up those idle synapses between your ears.
[/quote]
My point is that everyone attempting to conceive is partaking in the “willful” execution of embryos. Catholics simply choose to say one form is worse than another.[/quote]
…to advance an agenda of persecuting some lady wanting to be a nice mom to a kid.
The creaky old structure and mystical mumblings then become more important than the people they are meant to serve.
Sad ending to what was at one time the ‘glue’ that held humanity together. Ah well, the world grew up and has no more need of mysticism and fairy tales.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:<<< Stating the obvious needs no defending.
If you can’t see that Faith and Reason are enemies, polar opposites, then I can’t help you no matter how eloquent I become.
[/quote]Please do try because you seem to be oblivious to the fact that the parts I bolded and underlined above are fully synonymous. Your assignment for today is meditate for one hour on the hideously contradictory nature of this post.
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Is the Catholic church aware that a large majority of embryos created through conventional means fail to implant and die out, and that of those that do manage to implant, many later spontaneously miscarry? It seems hypocritical to label someone a mortal sinner while then advocating conventional sex, which is remarkably inefficient. The entire process of conception is a crap shoot and IVF is no different. [/quote]
You do not see the difference?[/quote]
There is no difference. If you actively have unprotected sex the chances are you create many embryos that never implant. This is no different than IVF. Show me how they are different?[/quote]
Let me ask you, what’s the difference between shooting grandma full of morphine so she starves to death and letting her die naturally?[/quote]
That is irrelevant because no one is shooting the embryos full of morphine, they are attempting to make a child. In both natural conception and IVF the death of the embryo is both natural and highly probable. The only difference is the means by which the embryo is created and reaches the uterus.[/quote]
You’re staring at the tree for the forest.
Please tell me how the death of embryos in IVF happen. I’ll wait. Then explain how it is natural.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:<<< Stating the obvious needs no defending.
If you can’t see that Faith and Reason are enemies, polar opposites, then I can’t help you no matter how eloquent I become.
[/quote]Please do try because you seem to be oblivious to the fact that the parts I bolded and underlined above are fully synonymous. Your assignment for today is meditate for one hour on the hideously contradictory nature of this post.
[/quote]
Now, you’re just being vague. HH is smart enough to be dumb, but he’s not smart enough to figure out your purposeful vagueness. Why don’t you explain how it is contradictory.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Headhunter wrote:<<< Stating the obvious needs no defending.
If you can’t see that Faith and Reason are enemies, polar opposites, then I can’t help you no matter how eloquent I become.
[/quote]Please do try because you seem to be oblivious to the fact that the parts I bolded and underlined above are fully synonymous. Your assignment for today is meditate for one hour on the hideously contradictory nature of this post.
[/quote]
Now, you’re just being vague. HH is smart enough to be dumb, but he’s not smart enough to figure out your purposeful vagueness. Why don’t you explain how it is contradictory.[/quote]And ruin his meditation time!?!?!? For shame Christopher. I thought you were more considerate than this.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
And ruin his meditation time!?!?!? For shame Christopher. I thought you were more considerate than this.
[/quote]
Your consistently vague. This has nothing to do with HH. Why don’t you try and start being clear and concise in explaining yourself. It works better to convince people of the truth.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Is the Catholic church aware that a large majority of embryos created through conventional means fail to implant and die out, and that of those that do manage to implant, many later spontaneously miscarry? It seems hypocritical to label someone a mortal sinner while then advocating conventional sex, which is remarkably inefficient. The entire process of conception is a crap shoot and IVF is no different. [/quote]
You do not see the difference?[/quote]
There is no difference. If you actively have unprotected sex the chances are you create many embryos that never implant. This is no different than IVF. Show me how they are different?[/quote]
Let me ask you, what’s the difference between shooting grandma full of morphine so she starves to death and letting her die naturally?[/quote]
That is irrelevant because no one is shooting the embryos full of morphine, they are attempting to make a child. In both natural conception and IVF the death of the embryo is both natural and highly probable. The only difference is the means by which the embryo is created and reaches the uterus.[/quote]
You’re staring at the tree for the forest.
Please tell me how the death of embryos in IVF happen. I’ll wait. Then explain how it is natural.[/quote]
Many fail implantation and go the route of a normal naturally conceived embryo. Some never make it past fertilization. Some are destroyed and some are stored at fertility banks. Again, if you have unprotected sex you are likely making embryos more often than you know and they die out.
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Some are destroyed
[/quote]
Most. You now have your answer. You destroy persons.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Some are destroyed
[/quote]
Most. You now have your answer. You destroy persons.[/quote]
Not most. Some. And you destroy embryos, not persons.
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Some are destroyed
[/quote]
Most. You now have your answer. You destroy persons.[/quote]
Not most. Some. And you destroy embryos, not persons.[/quote]
Even if it is not most of the embryos, even one is too much. Embryos are persons, though. Otherwise, why would we care?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Some are destroyed
[/quote]
Most. You now have your answer. You destroy persons.[/quote]
Not most. Some. And you destroy embryos, not persons.[/quote]
Embryos are persons, though.[/quote]
They are of people and have potential to become people, they themselves are not people. Do you have a funeral at the end of every one of your spouses cycles? Do you have the lost embryo baptized?
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BeefEater wrote:
Some are destroyed
[/quote]
Most. You now have your answer. You destroy persons.[/quote]
Not most. Some. And you destroy embryos, not persons.[/quote]
Embryos are persons, though.[/quote]
They are of people and have potential to become people, they themselves are not people.[/quote]
Actually they are persons.
[/quote]Do you have a funeral at the end of every one of your spouses cycles?[/quote]
No, because I don’t have a spouse.
What does this have to do with anything?
Natural conception has a very high failure rate for implantation in which the embryo is then expelled via the monthly cycle. If an embryo is a person, and persons find salvation in baptism, should not this monthly embryo be baptized?