[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
I have some questions but not sure if I should wait until Q and A 2.[/quote]
You can ask, I’ll answer or someone will. 
I have a question, really of all Christians, but I’ll post it here since I know we have a few Catholics in our midst.
If god is just and merciful, why does he allow some men to be tempted and tried more than others? Isn’t that stacking the deck against certain people, making it less likely that they will be saved than others with an easier path? Is this, in fact, a lesser form of double predestination?
For example, let’s say Gabriel had a relatively easy road to heaven. He was born into a loving home with wise parents that raised him properly. He never wanted for material things. He had no addictions or unhealthy predispositions. He was heterosexual. He was raised in a convent where he was treated kindly his entire life by the people around him, and where he found it natural to treat people kindly in return. He never did anything particularly wrong, but he never did anything particularly noteworthy either. When he dies, Peter quickly passes him through the pearly gates, to enjoy eternal bliss.
Julian had a much harder road. His mother took crack when she was pregnant with him, and his father physically abused him. He was impoverished his entire life, barely living from one meal to the next. His few friends cheated him, betrayed him, and lied to him. He was gay. He had a predisposition for alcohol, which required him to avoid drinking entirely in order to avoid addiction. He never hurt anyone. However, he was in a committed monogamous same sex relationship the last 30 years of his life, and he adopted a son that he loved and raised as best as he could. When he dies, Peter casts him down to hell, to suffer forever.
Is this just? Is it merciful?
[quote]forlife wrote:
I have a question, really of all Christians, but I’ll post it here since I know we have a few Catholics in our midst.
If god is just and merciful, why does he allow some men to be tempted and tried more than others? Isn’t that stacking the deck against certain people, making it less likely that they will be saved than others with an easier path? Is this, in fact, a lesser form of double predestination?
[/quote]
We don’t really know he does something like this. He may or may not. But what ever discrepancies there are he balances with grace. Everyone has the same opportunity to choose good vs. evil, God or Satan. You can’t know the nuances in a person’s life…People would look at me and think I am damn lucky and privileged. But the reality is that I while I am very blessed, I still had a very difficult life. But by the grace of God, by my will of relying on it, I have made it.
[quote]
For example, let’s say Gabriel had a relatively easy road to heaven. He was born into a loving home with wise parents that raised him properly. He never wanted for material things. He had no addictions or unhealthy predispositions. He was heterosexual. He was raised in a convent where he was treated kindly his entire life by the people around him, and where he found it natural to treat people kindly in return. He never did anything particularly wrong, but he never did anything particularly noteworthy either. When he dies, Peter quickly passes him through the pearly gates, to enjoy eternal bliss.
Julian had a much harder road. His mother took crack when she was pregnant with him, and his father physically abused him. He was impoverished his entire life, barely living from one meal to the next. His few friends cheated him, betrayed him, and lied to him. He was gay. He had a predisposition for alcohol, which required him to avoid drinking entirely in order to avoid addiction. He never hurt anyone. However, he was in a committed monogamous same sex relationship the last 30 years of his life, and he adopted a son that he loved and raised as best as he could. When he dies, Peter casts him down to hell, to suffer forever.
Is this just? Is it merciful?[/quote]
It doesn’t matter the hand your dealt, it’s how you played the hand. I know that God is anxious for mercy. He does not think like man nor condemn like man. So it impossible to know fate. To say that someone is definitely in hell because he sins condemns us all.
Let’s amend your second scenario… Let’s say July (for short) put his trust in the hands of God. He lives to 85 and his dick quit working 15 years prior.
In the mean time he has confessed to God that he is a sinner and has struggled with things that were sinful and that he is confused, but yet sorrowful for ever hurting God because that wasn’t his intention…<- That would be the intercession of God’s grace in to human weakness.
Pat, thanks for answering my question. Does it really say much, though, if a person has such an easy life and is never really tempted by any major sins? Why is that person any more worthy of eternal bliss than someone who was faced with a boatload of temptations and trials? If you’re faced with far more temptations, and those temptations are far more serious, isn’t it much harder to avoid damnation than if your life was a breeze?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Pat, thanks for answering my question. Does it really say much, though, if a person has such an easy life and is never really tempted by any major sins? Why is that person any more worthy of eternal bliss than someone who was faced with a boatload of temptations and trials? If you’re faced with far more temptations, and those temptations are far more serious, isn’t it much harder to avoid damnation than if your life was a breeze?[/quote]
Your assessment is full of shit. You don’t know the fate of anybody. And you don’t know what it’s like to walk in anybody elses shoes.
You think because I am not gay it’s a picnic? That I don’t struggle, that I don’t have o try everyday? Don’t insult me. You have your weaknesses I got mine. I am not giving up on God, because he hasn’t given up on me. You have no idea what I have been through, none. If you knew, you would not want it…
Did you go to the gym to day, did you get to train? Must be fucking nice.
That’s just the tip of the ice burg.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Pat, thanks for answering my question. Does it really say much, though, if a person has such an easy life and is never really tempted by any major sins? Why is that person any more worthy of eternal bliss than someone who was faced with a boatload of temptations and trials? If you’re faced with far more temptations, and those temptations are far more serious, isn’t it much harder to avoid damnation than if your life was a breeze?[/quote]
Your assessment is full of shit. You don’t know the fate of anybody. And you don’t know what it’s like to walk in anybody elses shoes.
You think because I am not gay it’s a picnic? That I don’t struggle, that I don’t have o try everyday? Don’t insult me. You have your weaknesses I got mine. I am not giving up on God, because he hasn’t given up on me. You have no idea what I have been through, none. If you knew, you would not want it…
Did you go to the gym to day, did you get to train? Must be fucking nice.
That’s just the tip of the ice burg.[/quote]
Why are you comparing yourself with me when the question was about two people that have experienced significantly different levels of temptation?
It’s a hypothetical, unless your position is that everybody has exactly the same level of temptation in this life.
[quote]forlife wrote:
I have a question, really of all Christians, but I’ll post it here since I know we have a few Catholics in our midst.
If god is just and merciful, why does he allow some men to be tempted and tried more than others? Isn’t that stacking the deck against certain people, making it less likely that they will be saved than others with an easier path? Is this, in fact, a lesser form of double predestination?[/quote]
I am sure you are aware of the Yoke of Christ?
God the Father is the tailor of Crosses. He tailors crosses perfectly. The Crosses are neither too heavy or too light. Though all are equal under morals and law, men are not created equal in spirit, intelligence, will, strength, &c. So, God does give men unequal burdens, but when yoked with Christ it is light. And, the lightest burden feels heavier than the heaviest when not yoked with Christ. Philippians 4:13
Okay…
[quote]Julian had a much harder road. His mother took crack when she was pregnant with him, and his father physically abused him. He was impoverished his entire life, barely living from one meal to the next. His few friends cheated him, betrayed him, and lied to him. He was gay. He had a predisposition for alcohol, which required him to avoid drinking entirely in order to avoid addiction. He never hurt anyone. However, he was in a committed monogamous same sex relationship the last 30 years of his life, and he adopted a son that he loved and raised as best as he could. When he dies, Peter casts him down to hell, to suffer forever.
Is this just? Is it merciful?[/quote]
Yes. I assume you’re asking why this is, implicitly?
Though I question whether from what you said about Gabriel allows him to make it to Heaven, we’ll for the moment pretend he lived the little way or something, not doing great things, but small things with great love. So Gabriel dies in a state of Grace and St. Peter, maybe after some time in Purgatory, sends Gabriel right on through the gates.
Now, Julian…well obvious he is a heathen! I am joking, though not really. But the erroneous idea in the situation is this…you’re comparing a man to other men (mankind, not male) to determine who goes to Heaven. That is not our standard; however, we do have a standard and that is…Jesus!
“So be perfect, just as your Heavenly Father is perfect,” Matthew 5:48.
So, I suppose we do have a few men (well, one man and his mother) to compare ourselves to, but the mold is God, nevertheless.
I hope you and your kids are doing well, forlife. Is the TX heat as bad as the AZ heat? I can’t wait until I can go hide out in the backwoods for the next nine months.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Is the TX heat as bad as the AZ heat? I can’t wait until I can go hide out in the backwoods for the next nine months.[/quote]
For the most part TX is much worse than AZ. On top of 110 degree days, we get throttling humidity. Lovely. And the place I moved to is exactly the same 
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Is the TX heat as bad as the AZ heat? I can’t wait until I can go hide out in the backwoods for the next nine months.[/quote]
For the most part TX is much worse than AZ. On top of 110 degree days, we get throttling humidity. Lovely. And the place I moved to is exactly the same :([/quote]
We don’t get throttling humidity, but we do get humidity coming up from the tropics for about half the summer (late) and the rest of the time we have 15-50% humidity. Though we do get wonderfully high temperatures rising to 115-120 throughout the day. So, what we lack in humidity, we make up for sheer heat and asphalt.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
St. Peter and St. Paul ruled in Rome…
[/quote]
This questions should suffice for now, I know Brother Chris said this in another thread however I feel it is applicable in this thread, if anyone can expound on this that would be helpful.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
St. Peter and St. Paul ruled in Rome…
[/quote]
This questions should suffice for now, I know Brother Chris said this in another thread however I feel it is applicable in this thread, if anyone can expound on this that would be helpful.[/quote]
Can you clarify the question? I see a part answer, but no question. Are you asking why the Holy See ended up in Rome?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
I have a question, really of all Christians, but I’ll post it here since I know we have a few Catholics in our midst.
If god is just and merciful, why does he allow some men to be tempted and tried more than others? Isn’t that stacking the deck against certain people, making it less likely that they will be saved than others with an easier path? Is this, in fact, a lesser form of double predestination?[/quote]
I am sure you are aware of the Yoke of Christ?
God the Father is the tailor of Crosses. He tailors crosses perfectly. The Crosses are neither too heavy or too light. Though all are equal under morals and law, men are not created equal in spirit, intelligence, will, strength, &c. So, God does give men unequal burdens, but when yoked with Christ it is light. And, the lightest burden feels heavier than the heaviest when not yoked with Christ. Philippians 4:13
Okay…
[quote]Julian had a much harder road. His mother took crack when she was pregnant with him, and his father physically abused him. He was impoverished his entire life, barely living from one meal to the next. His few friends cheated him, betrayed him, and lied to him. He was gay. He had a predisposition for alcohol, which required him to avoid drinking entirely in order to avoid addiction. He never hurt anyone. However, he was in a committed monogamous same sex relationship the last 30 years of his life, and he adopted a son that he loved and raised as best as he could. When he dies, Peter casts him down to hell, to suffer forever.
Is this just? Is it merciful?[/quote]
Yes. I assume you’re asking why this is, implicitly?
Though I question whether from what you said about Gabriel allows him to make it to Heaven, we’ll for the moment pretend he lived the little way or something, not doing great things, but small things with great love. So Gabriel dies in a state of Grace and St. Peter, maybe after some time in Purgatory, sends Gabriel right on through the gates.
Now, Julian…well obvious he is a heathen! I am joking, though not really. But the erroneous idea in the situation is this…you’re comparing a man to other men (mankind, not male) to determine who goes to Heaven. That is not our standard; however, we do have a standard and that is…Jesus!
“So be perfect, just as your Heavenly Father is perfect,” Matthew 5:48.
So, I suppose we do have a few men (well, one man and his mother) to compare ourselves to, but the mold is God, nevertheless.
I hope you and your kids are doing well, forlife. Is the TX heat as bad as the AZ heat? I can’t wait until I can go hide out in the backwoods for the next nine months.[/quote]
This is a good answer, and is similar to what I would have said myself as a Christian. I do still question why some people get a catalyst spurring them to repent while others don’t (see the other thread).
And thanks for the good wishes. The heat here has been ridiculous; if it continues through Saturday (and it will), this will be the longest string of 100+ days in Texas history.
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Pat, thanks for answering my question. Does it really say much, though, if a person has such an easy life and is never really tempted by any major sins? Why is that person any more worthy of eternal bliss than someone who was faced with a boatload of temptations and trials? If you’re faced with far more temptations, and those temptations are far more serious, isn’t it much harder to avoid damnation than if your life was a breeze?[/quote]
Your assessment is full of shit. You don’t know the fate of anybody. And you don’t know what it’s like to walk in anybody elses shoes.
You think because I am not gay it’s a picnic? That I don’t struggle, that I don’t have o try everyday? Don’t insult me. You have your weaknesses I got mine. I am not giving up on God, because he hasn’t given up on me. You have no idea what I have been through, none. If you knew, you would not want it…
Did you go to the gym to day, did you get to train? Must be fucking nice.
That’s just the tip of the ice burg.[/quote]
Why are you comparing yourself with me when the question was about two people that have experienced significantly different levels of temptation?
It’s a hypothetical, unless your position is that everybody has exactly the same level of temptation in this life.[/quote]
The problem is your assigning fate to the hypothetical and that something we cannot know. Maybe Jools went to hell for a different reason than you think. It’s not good to die in sin, but Jesus refers to forgiveness in the next life.
And I’d have to be a 200 lbs blithering idiot to not know you introduced said gay dude because of yourself.
Every body has different challenges but the same choices. The more down trodden you are the more God’s grace enters the picture. This is where we and our protestant brethren have sharp divide. While they think those poor starving kids with flies going in and out of there mouths because they are to weak to swat them, are going to hell because they haven’t been saved and read the bible and follow the scriptures, we see them as Jesus himself. For he said “What ever you do to the least of my people, that you do until me.” Well you don’t get less than that. Where there is no guilt and tremendous suffering, God’s grace abound and they will the exalted in the Kingdom, beyond what any of us could ever do. For while we may be decent, we have guilt still, children do not.
I introduced my self into the scenario, because I could fit scenario one perhaps from outside high level views, but it’s a farce. I am plenty weak, I love my pleasures and vices, I am allergic to suffering, but I know I am worthless with out God and rely on him exclusively in light of my challenges, but you decided to erase Him from existence.
I can spout cosmology all day long, I can even go the route of ontology (though its a way more complicated explanation), I can prove something is out there and that it’s likely what we call God; and you can try til you puke and you’ll never disprove it (If you did Hume would be pissed, he tried his whole life to do that). But none of the that shit really matters, because it’s the faith that matters ultimately. If I had to choose between deep faith or all encompassing knowledge, I choose faith. It’s been more reliable than my education. I know it works.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Is the TX heat as bad as the AZ heat? I can’t wait until I can go hide out in the backwoods for the next nine months.[/quote]
For the most part TX is much worse than AZ. On top of 110 degree days, we get throttling humidity. Lovely. And the place I moved to is exactly the same :([/quote]
Yeah, TX is brutal that way…But we win in humidity, most summer days you cannot see the sky in GA for the steam and haze. Last time I went to Vegas it was 103, at midnight with 25% humidity…
My buddy Devin Rose cracks me up.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
St. Peter and St. Paul ruled in Rome…
[/quote]
This questions should suffice for now, I know Brother Chris said this in another thread however I feel it is applicable in this thread, if anyone can expound on this that would be helpful.[/quote]
Can you clarify the question? I see a part answer, but no question. Are you asking why the Holy See ended up in Rome? [/quote]
Well I know Paul at least wrote a letter to the Romans but I don’t see Paul much less Peter who was sent to the Jews ended up ruling from Rome but sure I would like to know how it ended up in Rome.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]forlife wrote:
Pat, thanks for answering my question. Does it really say much, though, if a person has such an easy life and is never really tempted by any major sins? Why is that person any more worthy of eternal bliss than someone who was faced with a boatload of temptations and trials? If you’re faced with far more temptations, and those temptations are far more serious, isn’t it much harder to avoid damnation than if your life was a breeze?[/quote]
Your assessment is full of shit. You don’t know the fate of anybody. And you don’t know what it’s like to walk in anybody elses shoes.
You think because I am not gay it’s a picnic? That I don’t struggle, that I don’t have o try everyday? Don’t insult me. You have your weaknesses I got mine. I am not giving up on God, because he hasn’t given up on me. You have no idea what I have been through, none. If you knew, you would not want it…
Did you go to the gym to day, did you get to train? Must be fucking nice.
That’s just the tip of the ice burg.[/quote]
Why are you comparing yourself with me when the question was about two people that have experienced significantly different levels of temptation?
It’s a hypothetical, unless your position is that everybody has exactly the same level of temptation in this life.[/quote]
The problem is your assigning fate to the hypothetical and that something we cannot know. Maybe Jools went to hell for a different reason than you think. It’s not good to die in sin, but Jesus refers to forgiveness in the next life.
And I’d have to be a 200 lbs blithering idiot to not know you introduced said gay dude because of yourself.
Every body has different challenges but the same choices. The more down trodden you are the more God’s grace enters the picture. This is where we and our protestant brethren have sharp divide. While they think those poor starving kids with flies going in and out of there mouths because they are to weak to swat them, are going to hell because they haven’t been saved and read the bible and follow the scriptures, we see them as Jesus himself. For he said “What ever you do to the least of my people, that you do until me.” Well you don’t get less than that. Where there is no guilt and tremendous suffering, God’s grace abound and they will the exalted in the Kingdom, beyond what any of us could ever do. For while we may be decent, we have guilt still, children do not.
I introduced my self into the scenario, because I could fit scenario one perhaps from outside high level views, but it’s a farce. I am plenty weak, I love my pleasures and vices, I am allergic to suffering, but I know I am worthless with out God and rely on him exclusively in light of my challenges, but you decided to erase Him from existence.
I can spout cosmology all day long, I can even go the route of ontology (though its a way more complicated explanation), I can prove something is out there and that it’s likely what we call God; and you can try til you puke and you’ll never disprove it (If you did Hume would be pissed, he tried his whole life to do that). But none of the that shit really matters, because it’s the faith that matters ultimately. If I had to choose between deep faith or all encompassing knowledge, I choose faith. It’s been more reliable than my education. I know it works.[/quote]
I didn’t decide to erase god from existence. I realized that I had been programmed to evaluate truth in a certain way, and that my standard for truth as a believer was fatally flawed. The same standard that told me god was real also told me Joseph Smith was a true prophet. So you’ll forgive me if I don’t put a lot of faith in faith 
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
St. Peter and St. Paul ruled in Rome…
[/quote]
This questions should suffice for now, I know Brother Chris said this in another thread however I feel it is applicable in this thread, if anyone can expound on this that would be helpful.[/quote]
Can you clarify the question? I see a part answer, but no question. Are you asking why the Holy See ended up in Rome? [/quote]
Well I know Paul at least wrote a letter to the Romans but I don’t see Paul much less Peter who was sent to the Jews ended up ruling from Rome but sure I would like to know how it ended up in Rome.[/quote]
The Vatican sits on the site of St. Peter’s Martyrdom. Constantine, after his conversion to Christianity, built a basilica on top St. Peter’s tomb. The area was also where Nero held his circus feeding a good many Christians to the lions. So it has to do with St. Peter and the surrounding areas where nero’s circus was…
If you ever have the means to go, it’s way cool. They have St. Lukes skull, some other apostle’s finger, St. Peter’s official chair, all kinds of cool historical stuff.
History wise, Rome is one of the greatest cities in the world to visit.
Little side note, the Colosseum did not crumble or erode, most of that marble was used to build St. Peter’s and Vatican city. They need a lot of marble, there was a lot there.
Basically, the between the Vatican and the Colosseum, it’s the Christian way of flipping off all the pagans who used to kill us. We took there death chambers and made them Holy.
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
St. Peter and St. Paul ruled in Rome…
[/quote]
This questions should suffice for now, I know Brother Chris said this in another thread however I feel it is applicable in this thread, if anyone can expound on this that would be helpful.[/quote]
Can you clarify the question? I see a part answer, but no question. Are you asking why the Holy See ended up in Rome? [/quote]
Well I know Paul at least wrote a letter to the Romans but I don’t see Paul much less Peter who was sent to the Jews ended up ruling from Rome but sure I would like to know how it ended up in Rome.[/quote]
…wait, what? St. Peter’s and St. Paul’s tombs are in Rome.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]JoabSonOfZeruiah wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
St. Peter and St. Paul ruled in Rome…
[/quote]
This questions should suffice for now, I know Brother Chris said this in another thread however I feel it is applicable in this thread, if anyone can expound on this that would be helpful.[/quote]
Can you clarify the question? I see a part answer, but no question. Are you asking why the Holy See ended up in Rome? [/quote]
Well I know Paul at least wrote a letter to the Romans but I don’t see Paul much less Peter who was sent to the Jews ended up ruling from Rome but sure I would like to know how it ended up in Rome.[/quote]
The Vatican sits on the site of St. Peter’s Martyrdom. Constantine, after his conversion to Christianity, built a basilica on top St. Peter’s tomb. The area was also where Nero held his circus feeding a good many Christians to the lions. So it has to do with St. Peter and the surrounding areas where nero’s circus was…
If you ever have the means to go, it’s way cool. They have St. Lukes skull, some other apostle’s finger, St. Peter’s official chair, all kinds of cool historical stuff.
History wise, Rome is one of the greatest cities in the world to visit.
Little side note, the Colosseum did not crumble or erode, most of that marble was used to build St. Peter’s and Vatican city. They need a lot of marble, there was a lot there.
Basically, the between the Vatican and the Colosseum, it’s the Christian way of flipping off all the pagans who used to kill us. We took there death chambers and made them Holy. [/quote]
I agree, Rome is the favorite city I’ve visited so far. However, the basilica isn’t actually proven to be built on Peter’s tomb. It’s a convenient claim, but nothing more than that.