Catholic Q & A

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

I actually sent you to this article 7 or 8 months ago. CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ignorance

[quote]Invincible ignorance, whether of the law or of the fact, is always a valid excuse and excludes sin. The evident reason is that neither this state nor the act resulting therefrom is voluntary. It is undeniable that a man cannot be invincibly ignorant of the natural law, so far as its first principles are concerned, and the inferences easily drawn therefrom. This, however, according to the teaching of St. Thomas, is not true of those remoter conclusions, which are deducible only by a process of laborious and sometimes intricate reasoning. Of these a person may be invincibly ignorant. Even when the invincible ignorance is concomitant, it prevents the act which it accompanies from being regarded as sinful. The perverse temper of soul, which in this case is supposed, retains, of course, such malice as it had. Vincible ignorance, being in some way voluntary, does not permit a man to escape responsibility for the moral deformity of his deeds; he is held to be guilty and in general the more guilty in proportion as his ignorance is more voluntary. Hence, the essential thing to remember is that the guilt of an act performed or omitted in vincible ignorance is not to be measured by the intrinsic malice of the thing done or omitted so much as by the degree of negligence discernible in the act.

It must not be forgotten that, although vincible ignorance leaves the culpability of a person intact, still it does make the act less voluntary than if it were done with full knowledge. This holds good except perhaps with regard to the sort of ignorance termed affected. Here theologians are not agreed as to whether it increases or diminishes a man’s moral liability. The solution is possibly to be had from a consideration of the motive which influences one in choosing purposely to be ignorant. For instance, a man who would refuse to learn the doctrines of the Church from a fear that he would thus find himself compelled to embrace them would certainly be in a bad plight. Still he would be less guilty than the man whose neglect to know the teachings of the Church was inspired by sheer scorn of her authority. Invincible ignorance, whether of the law or fact, exempts one from the penalty which may have been provided by positive legislation. Even vincible ignorance, either of the law or fact, which is not crass, excuses one from the punishment. Mere lack of knowledge of the sanction does not free one from the penalty except in cases of censures. It is true then that any sort of ignorance which is not itself grievously sinful excuses, because for the incurring of censures contumacy is required. Vincible and consequent ignorance about the duties of our state of life or the truths of faith necessary for salvation is, of course, sinful. Ignorance of the nature or effects of an act does not make it invalid if everything else requisite for its validity be present. For instance, one who knows nothing of the efficacy of baptism validly baptizes, provided that he employs the matter and form and has the intention of doing what the Church does.[/quote][/quote]

No ignorance is invincible when it faces the grace of God.

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Last, you cannot hate the church and love the people. The people are the church, doofus. >>>[/quote]Yes I can and I do. [quote]pat wrote:We have tried to explain that to you a million times. >>>[/quote]You are not at liberty, nor are you equipped to explain MY attitudes. I’ll explain them thank ya very much. [quote]pat wrote:<<< We the people are the church… >>>[/quote]Not to me. You can absolutely disagree with my ecclesiology. What you can’t do is tell me what mine is. Your visible church is an entity that individual people associate themselves with. As is mine. THE true body of Christ is comprised ONLY of those individuals of all ages and peoples who are truly redeemed and is known only to God Himself. I’m not asking for you to go off on a tirade about how wrong that is. I’m explaining the doctrine that I believe and that doctrine fully allows for me to hate your visible church and love you. Yours may not. That’s my fault. [quote]pat wrote:<<< You can blow up the Vatican, you still have one Holy and Apostolic church. >>>[/quote]I couldn’t agree more. Even in the context of Catholicism. Your church is a behemoth organizational empire who’s monumental, iconic and universally recognized symbol is vatican city. I would rejoice in seeing it razed to the very last brick and stone AFTER all the people were out where I would be waiting to explain how they can personally avoid what just happened to their building. =] [quote]pat wrote:<<< Hate is not a Christian tenet. >>>[/quote]Psalm 5:5: David speaking of God: [quote]“The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,”[/quote] Hosea 9:15: God Himself speaking: [quote]“All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.”[/quote] Proverbs 6:16-19 [quote]16 There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers. [/quote] 8:13 [quote]13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate. [/quote] [quote]pat wrote:<<< Look where it has gotten you. Has hating us(the church) made you happy? Has it done any good what so ever? I’d say no, it has only brought you unhappiness. There’s your sign. [/quote]A couple things here. I am not after happiness. If you knew me in real life Pat and had even a microscopic inkling of what I am dealing with and saw the strength, peace and joy that is clearly not from me, you would recant this statement. Happiness is not a measure by which I gauge my life. Obedience is and I have a long way to go, but obedience brings courage, confidence and resolve regardless of how happy my circumstances are or aren’t.

As Christians it seems to me that we should be celebrating our many similarities rather than fighting about our differences.

Anyone else feel this way?

Zeb

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
pat wrote:<<< Last, you cannot hate the church and love the people. The people are the church, doofus. >>>Yes I can and I do.
[/quote]
You are a liar then. You cannot separate the two.

I am not explaining your attitude. I am proving your density and bias. The church and it’s people are one. You continue to think you know more about my faith than I do. You do not, you have no clue about her what so ever.

Bullshit. The true body of Christ are those who love him. Not those chosen by God to the exclusion of others. That is a vicious lie against my Lord.

Except you are totally wrong and your hatred is based on lies. Such as the normal case with hatred. Hatred and lies go together.

Never going to happen. Let your hatred die with you, do not spread hate among Christians.

[quote]
pat wrote:<<< Hate is not a Christian tenet. >>>Psalm 5:5: David speaking of God: “The boastful shall not stand before Thine eyes; Thou dost hate all who do iniquity,” Hosea 9:15: God Himself speaking: “All their evil is at Gilgal; indeed, I came to hate them there! Because of the wickedness of their deeds I will drive them out of My house! I will love them no more; All their princes are rebels.” Proverbs 6:16-19 16 There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him:
17 haughty eyes, a lying tongue,
and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 a heart that devises wicked plans,
feet that make haste to run to evil,
19 a false witness who breathes out lies,
and one who sows discord among brothers. 8:13 13 The fear of the Lord is hatred of evil. Pride and arrogance and the way of evil and perverted speech I hate. [/quote]

God hating evil is not new. But the Gospels say:
Having purified your souls by your obedience to the truth for a sincere brotherly love, love one another earnestly from a pure heart,
(1 Peter 1:22 ESV)

‘This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.’
(John 15:12 ESV)

‘So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.’
(1 Corinthians 13:13 ESV)

You are not seriously intimating that we are called on by Christ to hate one another are you?

And besides you are acting with arrogance pride and perverting the word of God. You should take notice of the above scripture. You raise the Calvinistic interpretation of scripture over scripture itself.

You don’t know me or what I go through or have been trough either…

Suit yourself, but no good can or has come of your hatred, you know it and so do I. If you don’t care about your happiness and neither do I. But hatred is from evil and visits evil. If you profess to spread hatred, you are doing the work of satan NOT God, period. I don’t care how much you pervert the word of God to support your hatred, it is not from God. To say otherwise is a lie.

[quote]ZEB wrote:
As Christians it seems to me that we should be celebrating our many similarities rather than fighting about our differences.

Anyone else feel this way?

Zeb[/quote]

We should celebrate our similarities…And we should be able to discuss our differences in good faith with out insult or condemnations, but the reality is that somebody is always in wait to poison the wells. What can you do, but defend that which you believe?
If somebody was telling lies about you or your faith, would you allow them to do so unchecked? If I was misrepresenting your faith, convinced that I know more about it that you, would you allow it? Yeah, neither would I.

The truth is, that most of us are brother’s and sister’s in Christ. Those who are not, chose not to be.
We don’t have to be alike to celebrate God…

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Catholics going to run this country – we’re becoming more Hispanic every day, the SCOTUS is 6/9 Catholics, and my son tells me that something like have of all the Mids at Annapolis are Catholics.

Maybe then some MORALITY can be brought back to this country.[/quote]

Or some damn good land scaping.[/quote]

Nah, you need the gays for that.[/quote]

No way! Gays are to delicate…How about Gay’s design it, Hispanics do the work… You know, I am actually half hispanic, I am pretty damn good at landscaping, though I hate it.

[quote]pat wrote:<<< We should celebrate our similarities… >>>[/quote]Excellent Pat!!! Let’s do it. You start.

[quote]pat wrote:
And further truth about the Spanish Inquisition is that once Pope Sixtus found out about what Ferdinand and Isabelle were up to, he spoke out against it as it was not the intention if inquisition. The Spanish Inquisition was more political as being the end of the 100 year war, the king and queen thought the best way to get rid of enemies of state was to faorce conversion or die. As long as you were Catholic, you were not an enemy of Spain.
Why did the church do more about it? Their hand were tied. The Spanish army was assisting in battling the Moors in the east in Turkey. With out the formidable Spanish military, much of Europe would be under Arab control and Islam would be the main religion.
Politics, is the word of the day.[/quote]

Long live the king! Juan Carlos I - Wikipedia

[quote]ZEB wrote:
As Christians it seems to me that we should be celebrating our many similarities rather than fighting about our differences.

Anyone else feel this way?

Zeb[/quote]

I fight for the truth, whether you hold to the truth is up to you. But, yes I can get along with non-Catholics without trying to kill them.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:<<< We should celebrate our similarities… >>>[/quote]Excellent Pat!!! Let’s do it. You start.
[/quote]

We believe in one almighty God creator of all that exists. We believe that out of love he submitted himself humbly to the hands of evil men, obedient and subservient as a ransom for our sins. We believe in a new covenant justified by faith not works of the law.

[quote]pat wrote:

The truth is, that most of us are brother’s and sister’s in Christ. Those who are not, chose not to be.
We don’t have to be alike to celebrate God…[/quote]

Exactly my point. And who loves to see Christians fighting? Think about the people on this very thread who see this and celebrate. Don’t give them any more to cheer about. Allow each his own view and let’s move on to another topic.

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
As Christians it seems to me that we should be celebrating our many similarities rather than fighting about our differences.

Anyone else feel this way?

Zeb[/quote]

I fight for the truth, whether you hold to the truth is up to you. But, yes I can get along with non-Catholics without trying to kill them.[/quote]

Let’s all join hands and celebrate the fact that we’re Christians!

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

The truth is, that most of us are brother’s and sister’s in Christ. Those who are not, chose not to be.
We don’t have to be alike to celebrate God…[/quote]

Exactly my point. And who loves to see Christians fighting? Think about the people on this very thread who see this and celebrate. Don’t give them any more to cheer about. Allow each his own view and let’s move on to another topic.[/quote]

Well, I am not in it to put forth false propaganda. The truth is Christians do fight. But, as was the case here, I will not allow may faith or what I say about it to be undermined by somebody who has the worst intentions, just to appear agreeable.

If you ask me a question about my faith. I answer, then somebody else jumps in tells with their own answer saying that may faith is a tool of satan, and an abomination and that it is all wrong…Well I am not going to let that stand as equal to my honest answer. I won’t tolerate that.

I don’t know what denomination you belong to, but if I utted in and said everything you said was wrong and that it is evil, and I know, because I know it better than you, I reckon you’d take exception to that. I don’t really see how I could not answer to that.

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

The truth is, that most of us are brother’s and sister’s in Christ. Those who are not, chose not to be.
We don’t have to be alike to celebrate God…[/quote]

Exactly my point. And who loves to see Christians fighting? Think about the people on this very thread who see this and celebrate. Don’t give them any more to cheer about. Allow each his own view and let’s move on to another topic.[/quote]

Well, I am not in it to put forth false propaganda. The truth is Christians do fight. But, as was the case here, I will not allow may faith or what I say about it to be undermined by somebody who has the worst intentions, just to appear agreeable.

If you ask me a question about my faith. I answer, then somebody else jumps in tells with their own answer saying that may faith is a tool of satan, and an abomination and that it is all wrong…Well I am not going to let that stand as equal to my honest answer. I won’t tolerate that.

I don’t know what denomination you belong to, but if I utted in and said everything you said was wrong and that it is evil, and I know, because I know it better than you, I reckon you’d take exception to that. I don’t really see how I could not answer to that.[/quote]

I cannot disagree with one single thing that you’ve written. My only plea to you is to not do any of it in public, in front of God haters. They jump for joy when they read what you Trib and the others are doing. Nor does not further the kingdom of God in any way.

Fair enough?

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

The truth is, that most of us are brother’s and sister’s in Christ. Those who are not, chose not to be.
We don’t have to be alike to celebrate God…[/quote]

Exactly my point. And who loves to see Christians fighting? Think about the people on this very thread who see this and celebrate. Don’t give them any more to cheer about. Allow each his own view and let’s move on to another topic.[/quote]

Well, I am not in it to put forth false propaganda. The truth is Christians do fight. But, as was the case here, I will not allow may faith or what I say about it to be undermined by somebody who has the worst intentions, just to appear agreeable.

If you ask me a question about my faith. I answer, then somebody else jumps in tells with their own answer saying that may faith is a tool of satan, and an abomination and that it is all wrong…Well I am not going to let that stand as equal to my honest answer. I won’t tolerate that.

I don’t know what denomination you belong to, but if I utted in and said everything you said was wrong and that it is evil, and I know, because I know it better than you, I reckon you’d take exception to that. I don’t really see how I could not answer to that.[/quote]

I agree with you that Tiribulus’s beliefs can come across as offensive and divisive. He might do well to back off and let his god do the converting, since if anything he is only driving people further away.

That said, I don’t question his sincerity or his motivation. I think he genuinely believes what he says, and doesn’t hold ill will toward anyone.

I’m curious about your take on my recent question to Sloth.

Do you believe it’s possible for people to be intelligent, educated on the bible, and sincere, yet disagree on core doctrines of Christianity? What about disagreeing on minor doctrines? Do you allow for honest differences in interpretation, even when people have beliefs that fundamentally contradict one another?

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

The truth is, that most of us are brother’s and sister’s in Christ. Those who are not, chose not to be.
We don’t have to be alike to celebrate God…[/quote]

Exactly my point. And who loves to see Christians fighting? Think about the people on this very thread who see this and celebrate. Don’t give them any more to cheer about. Allow each his own view and let’s move on to another topic.[/quote]

Well, I am not in it to put forth false propaganda. The truth is Christians do fight. But, as was the case here, I will not allow may faith or what I say about it to be undermined by somebody who has the worst intentions, just to appear agreeable.

If you ask me a question about my faith. I answer, then somebody else jumps in tells with their own answer saying that may faith is a tool of satan, and an abomination and that it is all wrong…Well I am not going to let that stand as equal to my honest answer. I won’t tolerate that.

I don’t know what denomination you belong to, but if I utted in and said everything you said was wrong and that it is evil, and I know, because I know it better than you, I reckon you’d take exception to that. I don’t really see how I could not answer to that.[/quote]

I cannot disagree with one single thing that you’ve written. My only plea to you is to not do any of it in public, in front of God haters. They jump for joy when they read what you Trib and the others are doing. Nor does not further the kingdom of God in any way.

Fair enough? [/quote]

I can’t make any promises…Like I said, I am not out for propaganda, but perhaps I can be less pointy.

Let the God-haters come and prove me wrong…They have nothing to celebrate as they live a lie. They live based on false, unproven premises and call it ‘rational’.
Actually, if you looked at the substance of the arguments, an outsider could learn a lot. There is a lot of info there.
If you look at my arguments, what am I arguing? Love, equality, truth and peace over hate, discrimination, and predetermined damnation. I think it’s better to display a fight than it is to let such false notions stand alone as a description of a Holy and loving God.

[quote]pat wrote:<<< Actually, if you looked at the substance of the arguments, an outsider could learn a lot. There is a lot of info there. <<<<>>>> I think it’s better to display a fight than it is to let such false notions stand alone as a description of a Holy and loving God.
[/quote]I’m with Pat. I handle things poorly sometimes, but I ain’t jist callin everybody who says “Jesus” brother when they passionately hold fatally heretical anti Christian beliefs. Can’t do it.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
As Christians it seems to me that we should be celebrating our many similarities rather than fighting about our differences.

Anyone else feel this way?

Zeb[/quote]

I fight for the truth, whether you hold to the truth is up to you. But, yes I can get along with non-Catholics without trying to kill them.[/quote]

Let’s all join hands and celebrate the fact that we’re Christians! [/quote]

â??A man that is a heretic, after the first and second admonition reject, knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself,â?? (Titus 3:10â??11).

Only if you bring the moonshine. :wink:

How I feel sometimes:

I finally got to watch this Chris. Has nothing to do with the system of thought I hold except formally, down a peripheral hallway or two. Man how I wish we could talk in person.