If you want to I can get you a link to Fr. Corapi so you can listen to his stuff. He’ll give you a solid understanding.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If you want to I can get you a link to Fr. Corapi so you can listen to his stuff. He’ll give you a solid understanding.[/quote]
I will give it a listen.
[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If you want to I can get you a link to Fr. Corapi so you can listen to his stuff. He’ll give you a solid understanding.[/quote]
I will give it a listen. [/quote]
It seems the site has been hacked. i’ll find something.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
If you want to I can get you a link to Fr. Corapi so you can listen to his stuff. He’ll give you a solid understanding.[/quote]
I will give it a listen. [/quote]
It seems the site has been hacked. i’ll find something.[/quote]Well I certainly agree with this:[quote]Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil." (Ephesians 6-11). This is basic training for every spiritual warrior. <<<>>> be wary of the tactics of the enemy, confess our sins, and humble ourselves to the will of God - even in the face of great suffering. Spiritual Warfare is a reality that cannot be ignored, as the consequences of denial are eternal.[/quote]
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Well I certainly agree with this
[/quote]
I am glad.
[quote]BlakeAJackson wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
I based my answer on what you said, so if I was wrong, I apologize. But I cannot see how you spent a great deal of time working out the conflicts when you actually do not understand the stance of the Church. The stances of the church should be questioned in a civil and reasonable way. I mean not with a chip on the shoulder, but well reasoned questioning. If you find something wrong, you say you think it’s wrong.
The only things you have to accept to be a participating Roman Catholic are the dogmas, of which there really aren’t that many.
The faith should stand up to scrutiny, if it does not then there may be something wrong. And quite frankly all that is currently held may not be so forever, not the dogmas, mind you just other things…
I always look to St. Thomas and is daring to question the resurrection. He may have questioned it, but I also note, he is an apostle and a saint. Jesus didn’t condemn him, he showed him. If you really want to know, He always shows you…
There is not a Catholic alive who does not have a problem with one thing or another. The bad part isn’t having the problem, it’s to stop looking for the answers.
It’s ok to fall, it’s not ok to give up…[/quote]
My issue is not so easily changed as dogma as it is in the actual practice that I have to witness and participate in, and after all it is what really matters. My reaction to the grievance I have with the practice is 100% backed by what I was taught by the church. The conclusions I have drawn as a result of the perpetuation by individuals is certainly not backed, and thanks to talking about it here is being drawn into question in myself.
[/quote]
I gather by this you have been a witness to or a victim of some heinous hypocrisy? That’s understandable as I have seen it myself. I don’t question it happened and happens all the time; there is no shortage of bad apples. But is it as wide spread as you portend or was it a particularly grotesque hypocrisy that you experienced?
I have seen it, watched it first hand, but not everywhere all the time. I have also been a party to some really awesome, humble folks who really do try.
Well you sure cannot beat experience and suffering and church really cannot out teach real life from an academic perspective. I will agree there is some less than stellar teaching going on, though. From a perspective of a teacher though, I can tell you that you cannot reach the uninterested. When some one doesn’t give a shit then there’s nothing you can do about it. The most effective tool is relating personal experience. That is when the kids pay most attention. That being said, some of the material is dry. There’s nothing you can do about it.
What I did, as a personal exercise is basically threw out everything I thought I knew and went about rediscovering everything by searching for truth. That led me to study philosophy and it lined right up with the church (keep in mind it was a much larger than to sentence prospect, but you get the point. Being religious simply makes more sense philosophically than not. But I also discovered in the process, the church is very philosophically justified, as well as spiritually. So even if I were never religious before and decided to church shop, that fact right there, would have led me to the RCC even if I haven’t experienced it before. Truth in whatever form is not rejected because, God is truth and to seek truth is to seek God. To shut yourself off from the truth is to shut yourself off from God. That is why the church accepts science, philosophy, art, and literature as part and parcel to religious study. Where truth is revealed, there you also find God.
Actually, for one to be culpable of sin you have to know something is wrong, and do it willfully. If you are not aware that you are sinning, you either are not held accountable or held accountable to a lesser degree. That doesn’t mean you do not reap what you so, it just does not impede your relationship with the Almighty.
The caveat, and I have no scientific proof but, and St. Paul says this in Romans, that everyone does have a predisposed basic knowledge of right and wrong.
You knew it was wrong the hit you little bother in the head with the hammer and set the house on fire. Nobody had to tell you it was wrong.
In other words, you are still accountable for the right and wrongs “in your heart” even if you don’t know the rules.
I would like to know more about what you mean here. Was it the abominations of certain individuals within the church? You do realize the accusation to conviction ratio is like 10 to 1. A lot of people are looking to get paid because we have deep pockets, so there were a lot of false claims too. The accusations make the front page, the dismissals make page 50. Or are you referring to something else? What would you have the clergy do better? ‘’ “”
[quote]pat wrote:
I would like to know more about what you mean here. Was it the abominations of certain individuals within the church? You do realize the accusation to conviction ratio is like 10 to 1. A lot of people are looking to get paid because we have deep pockets, so there were a lot of false claims too. The accusations make the front page, the dismissals make page 50. Or are you referring to something else? What would you have the clergy do better? ‘’ “”
[/quote]
He’s referring to the theological implications of the stain of mortal sin on a priest’s soul and his ability to perform the Sacraments (Eucharist, Confession, &c.) validly. I didn’t fully delve into the topic, because I don’t know the details beyond ‘because of the mystery of what we call ‘in persona Christi’ it is not by the power of the priest in which the Eucharist, Confession, &c. is done, it is by the power of Jesus in which those things are done.’
As in, it is by Jesus and not the priest’s state or strength that the Eucharist is valid, by Jesus and not the priest is confession valid. That is something protestants have a problem with is, confession. My first question for them is where does the Bible say to confess our sins to G-d directly and not to man. Second, they believe that we think that by the power of the priest the confession is valid. It’s not, G-d chooses weak people to do his work, so I doubt any priest, especially people like Pope B16 and John the Great have the power on their own.
See the weaker the person is, the more G-d builds them up. People ask me all the time how come I’m so good at this or that…because G-d couldn’t find anyone worse. There by the grace of G-d.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I do not have a guarantee that I will get to Heaven. >>>[/quote]I DO. And so can you and so can he. That guarantee is the finished work of the Son of God who cannot fail. As long as you keep believing that anything you do commends or condemns you before God you will go on day in and day out wondering how it will all end up. How tragic Chris. You traded one bondage for another. You can be free and free indeed. That freedom will drive you into His arms and away from sin in ways you will never know while enslaved to all that ritual.
[/quote]No you do not. You said yourself you do not know if your one of the elect…I swear living lies is not life at all.[/quote]Chris my good buddy, I want you to know that if the tables were turned and one of my protestant brethren were continually misrepresenting you like Pat does me I would come to your defense in that regard. Please Chris. It doesn’t mean you’re siding with me, but in the name of plain honesty will you please tell this man that you have personally read me numerous times saying that I can be absolutely certain of nobody’s election EXCEPT MY OWN. Have I not said this? That I can rest assured in my own election and be confident in others, but not know for them for sure? That only they can know that? Haven’t I? Anybody else heard me say that? Like 20 times?
Pat, for the record. I do not believe you are doing this on purpose.
[/quote]
I’ll say that I have read that you don’t know anybody’s election except your own, and you would do even better if you didn’t make statements like "most Catholics are going to hell.’ I have done it in my time, I have judged people wrongly. However, judging someone’s eternal state after this life goes into the do not judge lest ye be judged area.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I’ll say that I have read that you don’t know anybody’s election except your own, >>>[/quote]Thank you Chris. That was decent of you. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< and you would do even better if you didn’t make statements like "most Catholics are going to hell.’ I have done it in my time, I have judged people wrongly. However, judging someone’s eternal state after this life goes into the do not judge lest ye be judged area. [/quote]Lemme though try this again. You will not like this answer, but I am constrained by conscience to give it. I intend it as no stick in your eye, but I regretfully suspect you will take it that way.
Everybody is conceived and born dead in sin and on their way to hell. EVERYBODY. One of Satan’s most successful methods of keeping them that way is by immersing them in religion. Catholicism is his grand champion, but by the electing grace of almighty God he fails sometimes. You will not likely ever know in this life how I don that armor on your behalf in the longing hope that you will be one of those failures.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
I would like to know more about what you mean here. Was it the abominations of certain individuals within the church? You do realize the accusation to conviction ratio is like 10 to 1. A lot of people are looking to get paid because we have deep pockets, so there were a lot of false claims too. The accusations make the front page, the dismissals make page 50. Or are you referring to something else? What would you have the clergy do better? ‘’ “”
[/quote]
He’s referring to the theological implications of the stain of mortal sin on a priest’s soul and his ability to perform the Sacraments (Eucharist, Confession, &c.) validly. I didn’t fully delve into the topic, because I don’t know the details beyond ‘because of the mystery of what we call ‘in persona Christi’ it is not by the power of the priest in which the Eucharist, Confession, &c. is done, it is by the power of Jesus in which those things are done.’
As in, it is by Jesus and not the priest’s state or strength that the Eucharist is valid, by Jesus and not the priest is confession valid. That is something protestants have a problem with is, confession. My first question for them is where does the Bible say to confess our sins to G-d directly and not to man. Second, they believe that we think that by the power of the priest the confession is valid. It’s not, G-d chooses weak people to do his work, so I doubt any priest, especially people like Pope B16 and John the Great have the power on their own.
See the weaker the person is, the more G-d builds them up. People ask me all the time how come I’m so good at this or that…because G-d couldn’t find anyone worse. There by the grace of G-d.[/quote]
Ahh, well your explanation kind of clears it up, but if I take liberties to understand what he is saying, I am guessing then that it isn’t the sacraments they preside over, but a certain perceived tolerance for grievously sinful men continuing to preside over the sacraments despite the actions.
The truth is, it is not tolerated if known, but it is not handled publicly in most cases. The perception, thanks to a media who hates our guts, is that we do not handle our business…That isn’t true, most of the time it is dealt with.
Sadly, there were cases, in terms of the molestation cases, that were not handled correctly by the bishops. But in the greater scheme of things it was rare, and quite frankly the church was never prepared to deal with such things. It isn’t a lack of wanting to do the right thing, it was a lack of imagination that ordained men could be so evil…
I still think his complaint has roots in the molestation thing. Never the less, grievous crimes against humanity should result in immediate dismissal and a handing over to the judicial system of what ever country it happened in, no exceptions ever…
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I’ll say that I have read that you don’t know anybody’s election except your own, >>>[/quote]Thank you Chris. That was decent of you. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< and you would do even better if you didn’t make statements like "most Catholics are going to hell.’ I have done it in my time, I have judged people wrongly. However, judging someone’s eternal state after this life goes into the do not judge lest ye be judged area. [/quote]Lemme though try this again. You will not like this answer, but I am constrained by conscience to give it. I intend it as no stick in your eye, but I regretfully suspect you will take it that way.
Everybody is conceived and born dead in sin and on their way to hell. EVERYBODY. One of Satan’s most successful methods of keeping them that way is by immersing them in religion. Catholicism is his grand champion, but by the electing grace of almighty God he fails sometimes. You will not likely ever know in this life how I don that armor on your behalf in the longing hope that you will be one of those failures.
[/quote]
You are born in sin and therefore slave to sin, baptism reconciles us to Christ. But those unbaptized (by ritualistic purification through water) through no fault of there own are not automatically condemned. Those who know and willfully refused have the condemnation on them. NO WHERE in scripture does it say if you are not baptized, you will go to hell, NO WHERE.
Again, it’s a case of judging where you have no right. God judges, not us. And sola scriptura does not support this assertion.
If you can go to your local children’s cancer home, look into a dying baby’s eyes and tell it, that it is going to hell and there’s nothing it can do about it because it did not get baptized, and mean it, you’d be one cold mother fucker. I don’t care about the language, there is not other way to put it and wrong.
Again, you accuse Catholics of being over ritualistic and some times we are, but if you consider a non culpable lack of baptism as a one way ticket to hell, no exceptions, then you are the one who puts ritual over God’s word and will…Think about it, honestly.
No malice, tit-for-tat. Search the scriptures and find the automatic condemnation and I will concede.
Remember, for man it is impossible, for God, nothing is.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I’ll say that I have read that you don’t know anybody’s election except your own, >>>[/quote]Thank you Chris. That was decent of you. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< and you would do even better if you didn’t make statements like "most Catholics are going to hell.’ I have done it in my time, I have judged people wrongly. However, judging someone’s eternal state after this life goes into the do not judge lest ye be judged area. [/quote]Lemme though try this again. You will not like this answer, but I am constrained by conscience to give it. I intend it as no stick in your eye, but I regretfully suspect you will take it that way.
Everybody is conceived and born dead in sin and on their way to hell. EVERYBODY. One of Satan’s most successful methods of keeping them that way is by immersing them in religion. Catholicism is his grand champion, but by the electing grace of almighty God he fails sometimes. You will not likely ever know in this life how I don that armor on your behalf in the longing hope that you will be one of those failures.
[/quote]
AND how do you know that it isn’t your religion isn’t satan’s method for damnation, hmm? You could not make a compelling case for it, thats for sure.
I hope one day you really do some soul searching about this. It has made me angry, no doubt, I admit it, but to carry this unfounded hatred around must be a burden. For all the negative attention we have gotten over the years, we have also done tremendous good in the world too. A tree is measured by it’s fruit. Fruit is works not faith. For ever child who get another chance to eat, for ever man who regains dignity in the face of humiliation, for every person who reconciles with his family, because of a person of good faith and good will, for every baby saved from abortion,etc. that tree healthy because that fruit is ripe and plump. And Even the healthiest of plants need to be pruned. This not only applies to catholicism but and person of goodwill and faith.
Your enemy is people of God, you hate people of faith, love, hope and charity. Satan is the father of hate. Think about it.
God help me. The 2nd of Ephesians 2:1-10:
[quote]2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them[/quote]Romans 10:13-17
[quote]13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.[/quote]Showing you the plain words of holy writ is like shooting spitballs at an oak tree my old friend, but like I keep saying. Who knows who’s lurkin?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
God help me. The 2nd of Ephesians 2:1-10:
[quote]2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience- 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ-by grace you have been saved- 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them[/quote]Romans 10:13-17
[quote]13 For everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." 14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.[/quote]Showing you the plain words of holy writ is like shooting spitballs at an oak tree my old friend, but like I keep saying. Who knows who’s lurkin?
[/quote]
No where in here does it say, those who do not practice the ritual of baptism are automatically damned to hell…Got anything else? I want the specific passage or passages that say, no baptism, automatic trip to hell.
Show me, please. This ^ does not say any such thing, at all, in anyway.
[quote]pat wrote:<<< No where in here does it say, those who do not practice the ritual of baptism are automatically damned to hell…Got anything else? I want the specific passage or passages that say, no baptism, automatic trip to hell.
Show me, please. This ^ does not say any such thing, at all, in anyway.[/quote]I didn’t even mention baptism. You did. I have no burden in this exchange regarding baptism for that reason. I said mankind is universally damned and none are saved minus a self conscious commitment to the risen Christ. Go on about baptism all ya want. That’s not what I was talkin about.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I’ll say that I have read that you don’t know anybody’s election except your own, >>>[/quote]Thank you Chris. That was decent of you. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< and you would do even better if you didn’t make statements like "most Catholics are going to hell.’ I have done it in my time, I have judged people wrongly. However, judging someone’s eternal state after this life goes into the do not judge lest ye be judged area. [/quote]Lemme though try this again. You will not like this answer, but I am constrained by conscience to give it. I intend it as no stick in your eye, but I regretfully suspect you will take it that way.
Everybody is conceived and born dead in sin and on their way to hell. EVERYBODY. One of Satan’s most successful methods of keeping them that way is by immersing them in religion. Catholicism is his grand champion, but by the electing grace of almighty God he fails sometimes. You will not likely ever know in this life how I don that armor on your behalf in the longing hope that you will be one of those failures.
[/quote]
If I was you, I would agree 100% of what you just said.
I have to ask though, where do you get this?
You do know what religion is? Religion comes from the Latin word ligare, which means to connect or rebind with G-d. Religion is how G-d binds us back to himself.
As well, if religion is the creation of Satan, explain to me Judaism and the fact that Jesus was a religious Jew.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< No where in here does it say, those who do not practice the ritual of baptism are automatically damned to hell…Got anything else? I want the specific passage or passages that say, no baptism, automatic trip to hell.
Show me, please. This ^ does not say any such thing, at all, in anyway.[/quote]I didn’t even mention baptism. You did. I have no burden in this exchange regarding baptism for that reason. I said mankind is universally damned and none are saved minus a self conscious commitment to the risen Christ. Go on about baptism all ya want. That’s not what I was talkin about.
[/quote]
Did Elijah have a self conscious awareness of the Risen Christ? If not, where’s he (by your logic). If he did, then your definition of a self conscious awareness sounds a lot more like “a spritual intuition” which is sort of the opposite of conscious awareness.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:<<< No where in here does it say, those who do not practice the ritual of baptism are automatically damned to hell…Got anything else? I want the specific passage or passages that say, no baptism, automatic trip to hell.
Show me, please. This ^ does not say any such thing, at all, in anyway.[/quote]I didn’t even mention baptism. You did. I have no burden in this exchange regarding baptism for that reason. I said mankind is universally damned and none are saved minus a self conscious commitment to the risen Christ. Go on about baptism all ya want. That’s not what I was talkin about.
[/quote]
Fair enough what are you talking about and how do you get undead from sin?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I’ll say that I have read that you don’t know anybody’s election except your own, >>>[/quote]Thank you Chris. That was decent of you. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< and you would do even better if you didn’t make statements like "most Catholics are going to hell.’ I have done it in my time, I have judged people wrongly. However, judging someone’s eternal state after this life goes into the do not judge lest ye be judged area. [/quote]Lemme though try this again. You will not like this answer, but I am constrained by conscience to give it. I intend it as no stick in your eye, but I regretfully suspect you will take it that way.
Everybody is conceived and born dead in sin and on their way to hell. EVERYBODY. One of Satan’s most successful methods of keeping them that way is by immersing them in religion. Catholicism is his grand champion, but by the electing grace of almighty God he fails sometimes. You will not likely ever know in this life how I don that armor on your behalf in the longing hope that you will be one of those failures.
[/quote]
If I was you, I would agree 100% of what you just said.
I have to ask though, where do you get this?
You do know what religion is? Religion comes from the Latin word ligare, which means to connect or rebind with G-d. Religion is how G-d binds us back to himself.
As well, if religion is the creation of Satan, explain to me Judaism and the fact that Jesus was a religious Jew.[/quote]
Not religion, Christ’s church is a creation of satan is what he’s say, protestants are o-ok…
[quote]pat wrote:
Fair enough what are you talking about and how do you get undead from sin?[/quote]I will get to you guys as soon as it is possible for me to do so. As you guessed I do have answers. Pat, ya touched my heart. I mean that with everything I am. I know you’re not asking me this because you’re ready to believe what I say, but just to have you not yell, and ask me a question made my day. Seriously. I do not enjoy being at each other’s throats though some of it is unavoidable. [quote]mertdawg wrote:<<< Did Elijah have a self conscious awareness of the Risen Christ? If not, where’s he (by your logic). If he did, then your definition of a self conscious awareness sounds a lot more like “a spritual intuition” which is sort of the opposite of conscious awareness.[/quote]You surprised me with this. I’ll answer as soon as I can. Unbelievably busy. Your clue is: the same place Abraham is and by the same means. (Read Hebrews 11) Mind bogglingly glorious topic you’re hitting on here. Gets me excited jist thinkin about it.