[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The first 3 chapters of Galatians and the first 5 of Romans. Of course belief will bring attitudes and actions or it isn’t faith.
http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4102.htm[/quote]
Yes, but Abraham’s obedience was so great that the whole world became blessed, because “thou hast obeyed my voice.”
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. The first 3 chapters of Galatians and the first 5 of Romans. Of course belief will bring attitudes and actions or it isn’t faith.
http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/4102.htm[/quote]
I did some research today on some vocab (I used to love vocab HW) because we were discussing the meaning of “faith”
Concupiscence: The human tendency to sin, the legacy of original sin (CCC 1264, 1426, 2515).
Faith: The individualâ??s personal adherence to God and free assent to the whole truth that God has revealed (CCC 26, 142, 150, 1814).
Justification: The gracious action of God which frees us from sin and communicates â??the righteousness of God through Jesus Christâ?? (Rom 3:22) (CCC 1987-1989).
Redemption: The price paid by Christâ??s sacrifice on the Cross to free us from slavery to sin (CCC 571, 601; cf. 517, 1372).
Salvation: The forgiveness of sins and restoration of friendship with God (CCC 169).
Sanctification: The process of healing or â??perfectingâ?? our wounded nature, an action of Godâ??s grace (CCC 1999).
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
No need to make this difficult:
According to your faith will it be done to you (Matt 9:29).
[/quote]
Matthew 9:29 doesn’t say you’re saved or justified by ‘faith alone.’ It just says ‘faith.’[/quote]
According to you faith in ANYTHING, it is done to you.
This is about the law of consciousness that operates everywhere, all the time.
It’s about self-fulfilling prophecies.
If you have strong faith that you are saved, you are.
If you have strong faith that you’re coming up short in the works department, you’ll make yourself pay the price.
If you have strong faith that your soul has always been in Gods hands, then you know you don’t need ‘saving’.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote: A post quoting the CCC of 1992 on the various soteriological terms of the bible >>>[/quote]Those are all pretty good except I would definitely add the concept of separateness to sanctification. The trouble is though that Rome then traipses off from here into the weedy swamp of ritual and sacerdotalism. It’s like (sorta) when a mormon tells you he believes in god the father, his son jesus christ and the holy ghost and has the unsuspecting hearer thinking he believes in the trinity.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]forbes wrote:
So do you have an idea who or what the Whore of Babylon is?[/quote]
An idea who? No, that would be a little difficult, since it is a prophesy. What? Yes, John talks about what it is. I am not familiar with the Whore of Babylon, because it doesn’t come up much, even with my Baptist friends.
I assume that’s because they dare not cross certain lines as most of them seem to respect me because of my stature as a heavy-weight wrestler and thrower and as an officer in the local 4H, FFA, rodeo society, wrestling and boxing club, and member of the hunting and gun cllub. Or, maybe because their mothers told them if they didn’t have anything nice to say, don’t say anything at all. Since, they are from the South and for the sake of my pride, I am going to go with the latter.
Whenever someone does try to say something about the Church though, I just have to remember what Jesus said: “If they have called the master of the house Beelzebul, how much more will they malign those of his household” (Matt. 10:25).
And, if I may ask what do you disagree with the Church about (like what topics)? Sola Fide, Sola Scripture, call no man father, &c.?[/quote]
I will discuss later on. Exam time 
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
No need to make this difficult:
According to your faith will it be done to you (Matt 9:29).
[/quote]
Matthew 9:29 doesn’t say you’re saved or justified by ‘faith alone.’ It just says ‘faith.’[/quote]
According to you faith in ANYTHING, it is done to you.
This is about the law of consciousness that operates everywhere, all the time.
It’s about self-fulfilling prophecies.
If you have strong faith that you are saved, you are.
If you have strong faith that you’re coming up short in the works department, you’ll make yourself pay the price.
If you have strong faith that your soul has always been in Gods hands, then you know you don’t need ‘saving’.
[/quote]
Someone’s been reading the secret.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote: A post quoting the CCC of 1992 on the various soteriological terms of the bible >>>[/quote]Those are all pretty good except I would definitely add the concept of separateness to sanctification. The trouble is though that Rome then traipses off from here into the weedy swamp of ritual and sacerdotalism. It’s like (sorta) when a mormon tells you he believes in god the father, his son jesus christ and the holy ghost and has the unsuspecting hearer thinking he believes in the trinity.
[/quote]
Did you really compare Catholics to someone committing blaspheme?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
No need to make this difficult:
According to your faith will it be done to you (Matt 9:29).
[/quote]
Matthew 9:29 doesn’t say you’re saved or justified by ‘faith alone.’ It just says ‘faith.’[/quote]
According to you faith in ANYTHING, it is done to you.
This is about the law of consciousness that operates everywhere, all the time.
It’s about self-fulfilling prophecies.
If you have strong faith that you are saved, you are.
If you have strong faith that you’re coming up short in the works department, you’ll make yourself pay the price.
If you have strong faith that your soul has always been in Gods hands, then you know you don’t need ‘saving’.
[/quote]
Someone’s been reading the secret.[/quote]
Actually, I never did read it. But I did see a video about it.
It seemed to be a re-hashment of the countless books and authors prior to the secret saying the same general thing. That’s OK. Of course, its not going to please anyone hell-bent on a single particular religion as being the ‘one and only true religion’, because Truth can not be so confined.
Still…‘According to your faith will it be done to you (Matt 9:29).’… solves your Challenge. How do I collect the $500?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote: A post quoting the CCC of 1992 on the various soteriological terms of the bible >>>[/quote]Those are all pretty good except I would definitely add the concept of separateness to sanctification. The trouble is though that Rome then traipses off from here into the weedy swamp of ritual and sacerdotalism. It’s like (sorta) when a mormon tells you he believes in god the father, his son jesus christ and the holy ghost and has the unsuspecting hearer thinking he believes in the trinity.
[/quote]
Are you saying that you like the Roman Catholic definitions of terms related to salvation, but consider them to be hypocrites because the believe sacraments and ceremony to be essential components to salvation? Just asking for you to clarify. If so, we could have quite a discussion there.
Here’s an idea I had regarding some of the salvific terminology; help me out, or present what you think should be corrections:
Faith leads to salvation because it enables true repentance, but repentence is an action or set of actions that continues thoughout our lives
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote: A post quoting the CCC of 1992 on the various soteriological terms of the bible >>>[/quote]Those are all pretty good except I would definitely add the concept of separateness to sanctification. The trouble is though that Rome then traipses off from here into the weedy swamp of ritual and sacerdotalism. It’s like (sorta) when a mormon tells you he believes in god the father, his son jesus christ and the holy ghost and has the unsuspecting hearer thinking he believes in the trinity.
[/quote]
Are you saying that you like the Roman Catholic definitions of terms related to salvation, but consider them to be hypocrites because the believe sacraments and ceremony to be essential components to salvation? Just asking for you to clarify. If so, we could have quite a discussion there.[/quote]In essence. The definitions are pretty solid. How they are brought about in someone’s life is not. The mormon god/s comparison was imperfect and probably not the best one I could have made looking back.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Here’s an idea I had regarding some of the salvific terminology; help me out, or present what you think should be corrections:
Faith leads to salvation because it enables true repentance, but repentence is an action or set of actions that continues thoughout our lives [/quote]I do not believe anybody can genuinely repent of any sin until already subdued by the saving grace of the risen Christ who is Himself the author and finisher of our faith.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]mertdawg wrote:
Here’s an idea I had regarding some of the salvific terminology; help me out, or present what you think should be corrections:
Faith leads to salvation because it enables true repentance, but repentence is an action or set of actions that continues thoughout our lives [/quote]I do not believe anybody can genuinely repent of any sin until already subdued by the saving grace of the risen Christ who is Himself the author and finisher of our faith.
[/quote]
But doesn’t that mean that they are saved even if they don’t repent? I would rather think of repentence being the willingness to accept grace. Emptying before filling.
[quote]mertdawg wrote:<<< But doesn’t that mean that they are saved even if they don’t repent? I would rather think of repentence being the willingness to accept grace. Emptying before filling.[/quote]Romans 10:9 [quote]If you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved[/quote]Sincere repentance is included in this confessing and believing. Nobody confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in their heart that God raised Him from dead will refuse to repent. My point is that left to themselves? Nobody will do any of this. They must be already under the subduing, saving mercy of Christ to even begin. Why? Because they like I was, are dead in trespasses and sins, by nature children of wrath and enemies of God. Dead people do nothing until raised.
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
No need to make this difficult:
According to your faith will it be done to you (Matt 9:29).
[/quote]
Matthew 9:29 doesn’t say you’re saved or justified by ‘faith alone.’ It just says ‘faith.’[/quote]
According to you faith in ANYTHING, it is done to you.
This is about the law of consciousness that operates everywhere, all the time.
It’s about self-fulfilling prophecies.
If you have strong faith that you are saved, you are.
If you have strong faith that you’re coming up short in the works department, you’ll make yourself pay the price.
If you have strong faith that your soul has always been in Gods hands, then you know you don’t need ‘saving’.
[/quote]
Someone’s been reading the secret.[/quote]
Actually, I never did read it. But I did see a video about it.
It seemed to be a re-hashment of the countless books and authors prior to the secret saying the same general thing. That’s OK. Of course, its not going to please anyone hell-bent on a single particular religion as being the ‘one and only true religion’, because Truth can not be so confined.
Still…‘According to your faith will it be done to you (Matt 9:29).’… solves your Challenge. How do I collect the $500?[/quote]
I said find me a verse that says that we are saved or justified by ‘faith alone,’ this just says ‘faith’. And, even if you were correct, I haven’t issued the challenge. I asked Forbes what he thought about the challenge and anyone else. And, as well you haven’t accepted my challenge to you.
And, if you go back a verse, Jesus asked them ‘DO you’ indicating some kind of action or work.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:Sincere repentance is included in this confessing and believing.
[/quote]
Works.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
How they are brought about in someone’s life is not.
[/quote]
Please tell us how the Catholic Church teaches how they are brought about in someone’s life.
[quote]forbes wrote:
Lets make something clear. I am not a protestant. I am a Christian, a follower of Christ.
@BC
You said:
“What is your scriptural basis that it has to be stated in the Scriptures? What about those believers in the South that used the Bible to say slavery was okay? What about that minister in Florida who convinced two people to kill abortion doctors from the Bible? All of them believed, all weren’t in the truth.”
For one, there’s also something called misinterpretation. And though they claim they used the Bible, they did nothing more than twist scripture to fit their own desires.
Second, as for requiring that something be in Scripture for it to be true is:
1 Cor 4:6
Luke 1:1-4
Matt 4:1-11
2 Tim 3: 16-17
Luke 10:26
Acts 17: 11-20
About the Spirit only guiding the Church leaders:
Thing about that is, MANY “christian” sects claim revelation and guidance from the Spirit, even McG78 admitted that above.[/quote]
But, how many Churches claim and have been around from Jesus’ time. Who claims to be the Church that was built on St. Peter as Mt 16:18?
The one who is based on Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. The one that has been here since the Apostles.
[quote]Scripture says that God does not confuse, nor would he about topics such as salvation.
[/quote]
What do you believe about salvation, faith alone or faith and works?
Or, it could be that he guides one Church.
[quote]
You seem to like to ask “by what authority” to me a lot. So I ask you, by what authority do you claim that oral tradition is just as sacred as Scriptures, and that the Spirit only guides the Catholic church. Please support this view.[/quote]
My authority is the Bible and therefore the Catholic Church since the Catholic Church gives the Bible its authority.
Let me first ask you something, do you believe in the Trinity? Then where in the Bible is the word Trinity? I am presuming that the answer is yes. However, the word Trinity is not in the Bible. Therefore, not everything that is to be believed by Christians is directly in the Bible. Is there biblical backing of the Trinity? Yes, just like there is of purgatory, Mary’s assumption, the Pope, &c.
Why do you believe that everything of the Christian faith has to be found in the Bible? Is it really the sole rule of faith for Christians? Does it really contain everything we need to know about faith and morals? I am presuming yes, that the Bible is the only thing that we need to know and to believe that Jesus wanted us to know and believe.
I want you to do something for me, hold up your Bible. Now, tell me what is the Pillar and Bulwark of the truth? I am presuming you hold that it is the Bible, right. One Timothy 3:15, “If I [Paul] am delayed, you may know how one out to behave in the household of G-d, which is the Church of the living G-d, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.” Therefore, it is the Church and not the Bible that is pillar and bulwark of the truth. The Church is the pillar of truth. In addition, what does a pillar do…it holds things up? Therefore, the Bible is telling us that the Bible is upholding the truth. The Church is the pillar of the truth. The Church is the bulwark of the truth…and, what does a bulwark do? It is something that acts as a protection or a defense of something. Therefore, the Bible is telling us that the Church is protecting and defending the truth.
The Bible says…the Bible says, the Word of G-d says, not that the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of truth, but the Church…the Church…the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth.
If the Church is the pillar and bulwark of the truth, the upholder and defender of the truth…are not we as Catholics right to listen to the Church in matters of faith and morals about purgatory, or Mary, or the Pope. In addition, particularly should not we listen to the Church in matters of pertaining to the proper interpretation of scripture?
John 8:32, “and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” If you cannot know the truth with certainty, how can you be made free? The Church has a very important role in setting people free.
So, why do you believe that the Bible is the sole rule of faith for Christians? Where in the Bible does it say that?
If you believe that the Bible is the sole rule of faith, then the Bible ought to say that. Do not you think so?
However, you know what, nowhere…nowhere in the Bible does it say that. Nowhere, it is not there.
Let us look at some of your reasons:
Two Tim 3:16-17 says, “All Scripture is inspired by G-d and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of G-d may be complete, equipped for every good work.”
In addition, I say this…Amen! I believe 100% in what this verse is saying.
Two things about this passage:
What this scripture is saying and what all this passage is saying is that Scripture is inspired and profitable. In addition, as Catholics we agree 100%, all Scripture is inspired and profitable. We need to read scripture, we need to know it, &c., but this passage still doesn’t say anything about Scripture being the sole rule of faith for Christians.
However, let us get some context of this scripture, let us look at two Tim. 3:15, “and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the Sacred Writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.”
From childhood, what sacred writings have Timothy know from childhood? How many books of the New Testament were written when Timothy was in his childhood? Paul, here, is talking about the Old Testament.
Therefore, if we interpret this passage in light of your form, Paul here is saying that the Old Testament is sufficient as a rule of faith because he is talking about the Old Testament, not the NT. Most of the NT had not been written, yet. If what you are saying about this passage were true, then we would have to conclude that the Old Testament Bible is the sole rule of faith for Christians. Of course, that is if we interpret in that form. I am sure we both agree that this is incorrect.
Now, I want to establish an important Catholic doctrine. That is Sacred Scripture and… And… In addition, Sacred Tradition, which makes up the entire deposit of faith. This comprises of the sole rule of faith for Christians. That Catholics do not believe the Scriptures are the sole rule of faith, but that the Word of G-d is the sole rule of faith.
I am guessing we both believe that the Word of G-d is the sole rule of faith. However, I hold that the sole rule of faith is both the written and spoken form of the Word of G-d, not just in the written form.
Now, I know if it is not in the Bible, you are not going to believe it. Therefore, I have taken the time to get you some verses from the Bible.
2 Thess, 2:15 Paul says to the Thessalonians, “So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.”
Traditions, traditions taught by either by word of mouth or by letter. Sacred Scriptures AND Sacred Traditions.
Now, keep your finger on Thessalonians, we will be back in a second. However, let us turn to two Timothy 2:2.
Two Timothy 2:2, Paul says to Timothy, “and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.”
Does Paul say pass what you have read in my writings so that they may read it, too? No. What you have heard from me…entrust to faithful men who will…write it down? No… Who will teach others.
Now, turn to one Corinthians 11:2, Paul says to the Corinthians, “I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.”
Paul is commending the Corinthians because they maintain the traditions that Paul has delivered to them. Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition.
Go back to Thessalonians.
1 Thess 2:13, Paul says, “And we also thank G-d constantly for this, that when you received the word of G-d which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men but as what it really is, the word of G-d, which is at work in you believers.”
So they thank G-d for they received what they heard and not what they had read. In addition, that is what Sacred Tradition is, the Apostles doctrine that which was given to them by Lord, Jesus Christ.
Jesus does not condemn all tradition. Nowhere does the Bible say that. Jesus condemns the traditions of men, especially those traditions that contradict or that negate the word of G-d. Traditions in and of themselves are not bad things; it is only when they negate the word of G-d that Jesus has a problem.
We have seen that the traditions that come from the Apostles, and Paul says he is an Apostle. Because the Apostles were taught by Jesus and guided by the Holy Ghost. Apostolic Traditions are not condemned in Scripture. In addition, we have seen in one Thess 2:13 that these traditions are not the word of men, but the word of G-d.
Every Church has traditions if they want to admit it or not. Sunday as the Sabbath, not in the Bible. Wednesday night Church meeting, not in the Bible. It is not a bad tradition, but it is a tradition.
Alter calls, not a bad tradition, but a tradition and not in the Bible.
Sola Scriptura, not in the Bible. A tradition and particularly a tradition of men. This negates the word of G-d.
From a historical and logical point of view. Martin Luther broke from the Church it was 1520. By the year, 1600 there was more than 200 Protestant denominations. By the year 1900, the Protestant denominations numbered almost a 1000. In addition, now in the 2010 there are 30 to 35000 Protestant denominations. In addition, the thing is that each one claims to be based on the Bible Alone and each claim to be guided by the Spirit. Yet, none of them has the exact same doctrines. In addition, many have doctrines that contradict one another.
35,000 Protestant denominations claim to be based on the Bible alone and guided by the Spirit. Yet, how can that be that you have different doctrines and doctrines that contradict each other. Can the Holy Spirit contradict itself?
NO.
The doctrine of Sola Scriptura has done nothing but divide the body of Christ.
Now, I have to get back to bed, but if you wish for me to read, the rest of those verses and give my comments on them. I will.
Goodnight.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
No need to make this difficult:
According to your faith will it be done to you (Matt 9:29).
[/quote]
Matthew 9:29 doesn’t say you’re saved or justified by ‘faith alone.’ It just says ‘faith.’[/quote]
According to you faith in ANYTHING, it is done to you.
This is about the law of consciousness that operates everywhere, all the time.
It’s about self-fulfilling prophecies.
If you have strong faith that you are saved, you are.
If you have strong faith that you’re coming up short in the works department, you’ll make yourself pay the price.
If you have strong faith that your soul has always been in Gods hands, then you know you don’t need ‘saving’.
[/quote]
Someone’s been reading the secret.[/quote]
Actually, I never did read it. But I did see a video about it.
It seemed to be a re-hashment of the countless books and authors prior to the secret saying the same general thing. That’s OK. Of course, its not going to please anyone hell-bent on a single particular religion as being the ‘one and only true religion’, because Truth can not be so confined.
Still…‘According to your faith will it be done to you (Matt 9:29).’… solves your Challenge. How do I collect the $500?[/quote]
I said find me a verse that says that we are saved or justified by ‘faith alone,’ this just says ‘faith’. And, even if you were correct, I haven’t issued the challenge. I asked Forbes what he thought about the challenge and anyone else. And, as well you haven’t accepted my challenge to you.
And, if you go back a verse, Jesus asked them ‘DO you’ indicating some kind of action or work.[/quote]
You are not seeing the forest for the trees, my friend.
‘According to your faith will IT be done to you (Matt 9:29).’
What is ‘IT’? It’s ANYTHING. Insert your noun. Salvation. Health. Family. Forgiveness.
You are also back-pedaling.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote: A post quoting the CCC of 1992 on the various soteriological terms of the bible >>>[/quote]Those are all pretty good except I would definitely add the concept of separateness to sanctification. The trouble is though that Rome then traipses off from here into the weedy swamp of ritual and sacerdotalism. It’s like (sorta) when a mormon tells you he believes in god the father, his son jesus christ and the holy ghost and has the unsuspecting hearer thinking he believes in the trinity.
[/quote]
Did you really compare Catholics to someone committing blaspheme?[/quote]
Hey now.