Very very good your majesty. My offense, to be clear, is not so much at the words themselves as it is in the fact of someone claiming to represent Christ in the world and then reproaching and dishonoring His name and character with base, carnal and worldly speech. I expect godless speech from people who make no claim to godliness.
Speaking of offense. This is my thread and as good a place as any to do this. I was myself offensive to the Lord and a poor witness of His character by my shameful public attacks on KingKai25 before allowing him the opportunity of so much as 10 seconds of conversation in my direction. I do hereby repent as promised and declare my premature estimation of this young man to have been among the wrongest in my life. This is one of the horrible sins of my past and I have no excuse. Aragorn recently rightly rebuked me for not taking these things up privately first. I should have.
We’ve talked extensively through PM’s and he’s forgiven me. I’m humbled and grateful. To God be the glory.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote: Nose in air, nostrils flared and hips wiggling as they stomp off in a curiously upside down self unrighteous huff. Too many Novenas or something. I haven’t been able to figure it out.
[/quote]
There is no evidence that Nancy P has ever been seen acting like this. You go too far.[/quote]Nancy claims to be Catholic and nobody’s sayin otherwise so she must be acting like this in private. =D
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Just got back from running this brother’s jam session. >>>[/quote]You mean like mixing the sound?
[/quote]
No, operations. Advertisement, set up, and back stage stuff.
Tonight all brother used was an acoustic guitar, mic, speaker, and a stool. He’s a buddy of my priest, but he’s pretty big in AZ and is going back and forth between Nashville and PHX.
Hmm, well I respectfully disagree. There are many things that ‘enslave’ yet aren’t necessarily bad. I see these types of slippery slopes where a behavior or notion, several degrees removed from a core tenant is as still ‘bad’ but not implicitly so. Many things can fit that definition, and if you don’t check in with the core of the teaching such notions can get out of control.
Paul really appears to be invoking a moderation, rather than a condemnation of repeatative behaviours. There is a difference for instance of saying “Shit!” when you drop something and using a ‘colorful metaphor’ for every other word.
[/quote]
I don’t have much time, so just a few quick thoughts. This point was only one of several; it was not my primary point. I can agree that things like watching television, eaten chocolate, etc. are not inherently evil, but once you become enslaved to a particular thing, it IS evil for you. And with something like cussing, as you freely admit is the case for you at the bottom, it’s a bit of a habit already. In my experience and in the experience of many others, cussing is more difficult to quit, especially since the reasons why you generally cuss aren’t simply to tell knock-knock jokes, but either (1) to entertain others through derogatory or other crude statements (sexual suggestive remarks, sexual jokes, etc.), or (2) to attack people. In other words, we use swearing mostly in the wrong contexts ANYWAY. Once you start swearing, it becomes harder not to swear in those contexts. In other words, once you allow yourself too much leniency in an area, it becomes difficult to control yourself in other areas.
[quote[
That doesn’t mean cussing is good, and it may be even a little bad sometimes. I see it as language that adds a little color to life. It can be used as mean and derogatory of course, but it can also be down right amusing and bring laughter.
The only reasons that these words at all contentious is that people choose to be offended by them.
[/quote[
This last statement is false (except, apparently, in the case of Mr. Chen). There are host of cultural and sociological factors that dictate what words people think are taboo AND how people respond to them. In our world, we are terrified of germs, so there are things we won’t touch and will actively yell at other for touching. In a different part of the world, where they have no conception of germs, the same taboos don’t apply. The point is, our reaction to certain things (like cuss words) is socially determined. Tirib doesn’t CHOOSE to be offended; he (like many of us) has grown up in a culture that has INGRAINED IN US the notion that we SHOULD be offended by those words. Consequently, even if they are just words, in THIS society and THIS culture, they ARE offensive.
I believe you are in danger of losing your MFP status with this post.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Just got back from running this brother’s jam session. >>>[/quote]You mean like mixing the sound?
[/quote]No, operations. Advertisement, set up, and back stage stuff.
Tonight all brother used was an acoustic guitar, mic, speaker, and a stool. He’s a buddy of my priest, but he’s pretty big in AZ and is going back and forth between Nashville and PHX. [/quote]Well Chris, you certainly are one busy guy. That’ll help keep a Young fella outta trouble. I was going to give you a (playfully) hard time about the mix which really probably isn’t the mix at all, but the fact of the open room amateur mic recording in this video from behind the PA and only getting the monitors that are closest to the cameraman, but the guy in back with the Gibson SG, pedal effects board and the cry baby cannot be heard in this video. I also noticed your friend uses a telecaster, which is a fine instrument, but unusual for someone his age and playing that kind of music. It also has an unusual sorta dark burnt sunburst finish. For a tele anyway. That’s kinda cool and independent of him. Telecasters are a favorite among country players.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< There is no rejoicing in hell week (read: reading week, 22 hours of silence a day). [/quote]Rejoicing is a command, a privilege and a weapon of spiritual warfare Christopher. Try it during hell week and see how much less hellish it is. Take a couple minutes here and there to bless His glorious name. His grace, mercy and love. Praise Him for who and what He is as well as what He has done and will do. He loves that and therefore so do His children. Tell him how you love Him. Out loud. You just may find that this ol schismatic protestant heretic is on to something very simple and very wonderful. (That is a non critical, sincere and brotherly admonition btw)
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Just got back from running this brother’s jam session. >>>[/quote]You mean like mixing the sound?
[/quote]No, operations. Advertisement, set up, and back stage stuff.
Tonight all brother used was an acoustic guitar, mic, speaker, and a stool. He’s a buddy of my priest, but he’s pretty big in AZ and is going back and forth between Nashville and PHX. [/quote]Well Chris, you certainly are one busy guy. That’ll help keep a Young fella outta trouble. I was going to give you a (playfully) hard time about the mix which really probably isn’t the mix at all, but the fact of the open room amateur mic recording in this video from behind the PA and only getting the monitors that are closest to the cameraman, but the guy in back with the Gibson SG, pedal effects board and the cry baby cannot be heard in this video. I also noticed your friend uses a telecaster, which is a fine instrument, but unusual for someone his age and playing that kind of music. It also has an unusual sorta dark burnt sunburst finish. For a tele anyway. That’s kinda cool and independent of him. Telecasters are a favorite among country players.[/quote]
Reason why he’s going to Nashville to put down some records.
Hmm, well I respectfully disagree. There are many things that ‘enslave’ yet aren’t necessarily bad. I see these types of slippery slopes where a behavior or notion, several degrees removed from a core tenant is as still ‘bad’ but not implicitly so. Many things can fit that definition, and if you don’t check in with the core of the teaching such notions can get out of control.
Paul really appears to be invoking a moderation, rather than a condemnation of repeatative behaviours. There is a difference for instance of saying “Shit!” when you drop something and using a ‘colorful metaphor’ for every other word.
[/quote]
I don’t have much time, so just a few quick thoughts. This point was only one of several; it was not my primary point. I can agree that things like watching television, eaten chocolate, etc. are not inherently evil, but once you become enslaved to a particular thing, it IS evil for you. And with something like cussing, as you freely admit is the case for you at the bottom, it’s a bit of a habit already. In my experience and in the experience of many others, cussing is more difficult to quit, especially since the reasons why you generally cuss aren’t simply to tell knock-knock jokes, but either (1) to entertain others through derogatory or other crude statements (sexual suggestive remarks, sexual jokes, etc.), or (2) to attack people. In other words, we use swearing mostly in the wrong contexts ANYWAY. Once you start swearing, it becomes harder not to swear in those contexts. In other words, once you allow yourself too much leniency in an area, it becomes difficult to control yourself in other areas.
This last statement is false (except, apparently, in the case of Mr. Chen). There are host of cultural and sociological factors that dictate what words people think are taboo AND how people respond to them. In our world, we are terrified of germs, so there are things we won’t touch and will actively yell at other for touching. In a different part of the world, where they have no conception of germs, the same taboos don’t apply. The point is, our reaction to certain things (like cuss words) is socially determined. Tirib doesn’t CHOOSE to be offended; he (like many of us) has grown up in a culture that has INGRAINED IN US the notion that we SHOULD be offended by those words. Consequently, even if they are just words, in THIS society and THIS culture, they ARE offensive.
What I meant by getting caught up in, or leading to legalism, is putting so much emphasis on the rules that you ignore why they are there and in the end, no matter how little the violation.
I think this is a bit of a fuzzy issue, from my point of view, I don’t see cussing bad at all. To me it’s like a little spice or garnish to make language more interesting. If I did think it was a bad thing I would strive to eliminate it. But I don’t. I enjoy it actually. I know when not to say them and in which company it’s less abrasive vs. more. So it isn’t an absence of control.
Could I stop cussing all together, sure if I put my mind to it, but I am not interested in that. We live in a world that is rife with evil. I tend to like to call things I as I see them, which in some cases requires the use of a few choice words…
As far as the admonition of being trusted in small matters vs. large. I mean really, what’s the implication of dropping the occasional f-bomb? Not much. Even in really sensitive company I don’t see the implication being that big.
I do believe the biblical admonitions refer to things like the little girl next door who like to play with my daughter. When ever she comes over, she fills her pockets with every piece of candy she can get her hands on and drink every Gatorade she can carry too.
In that case, I don’t trust her not one bit.
I guess the question really boils down to, can you trust a person who cusses with your life. And most unequivocally I answer yes. I am responsible for lives and they get the best care I can possibly provide.
Even if you expound cussing to it ultimate most vulgar point, at worse it’s a little unpleasant. If I am the biggest cusser in the world, and that’s the worst thing you could say about me, then I am doing really good.
And when comes to flaws, if you see this as one, it’s the least of my problems.
When it comes to say Matthew 25:14 - 30 for instance, it’s about trust. If you are trust worthy in small things then you are trust worthy in large matters. If you are able to forgive small trespasses than likely you will be able forgive large trespasses. If use your talents well in small matters, you will use them well in larger matters.
If you cuss a little, you might cuss more in larger matters. Ever try to push in an actuated rear brake caliper piston? If that doesn’t make you cuss like a sailor, nothing will. Big deal…
In the end you do know this all this was, was another dig, or attempt to by Chen to bring me down, right? It has no real value, it’s just another attempt to bring me down based on minutia.
Can we then move on to ‘Yo mama…’ insults, then? [/quote]
That’s your style, not mine:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]WW3General wrote:
Sloth- You don’t want to know what gods love feels like? Or have you already found out?
It is Stockholm Syndrome you don’t have to be embarassed it happens.
I think it is funny that you can not even deal with me saying that about you on an internet thread, but you seem not to care at all that some little boy had to go through that in real life.
For the record-
Fuck- all religion (catholics too)
and all you catholic child molesting supporters.[/quote]
Oh yeah! I fucked your mom last night!.. LOL![/quote]
It’s from the thread Come On In and Have a Seat Over There, pg 1. Oh I know, you’re just giving as good as you get. [/quote]
Do you realize how much effort you are putting in to try and bring me down? If had any inking of the context, I was mocking him for doing that. He was losing an arguement with somebody else so his retort was that he fucked that persons mother last night… I was illustrating absurdity by being absurd. He got the message.
Is there no end to your pettiness?
Are you going to follow me around from thread to thread looking for me to “mess up” so you can bring it here and show everybody what a bad person I am? There are stalking laws you know…LOL!
What the hell is the matter with you dude? All I have asked from you is to bring up substantive topics to discuss… Not petty hate filled vomit with no basis in fact or reason. If you wonder why you have lost pretty much every argument it’s for that reason, you haven’t done your homework. You claim to be heavily educated, but you fill your pages with drivel…
I am so not impressed…
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Reason why he’s going to Nashville to put down some records. >>>[/quote]Why’s he carryin em around like that? There’s no room to put em down in Phoenix? I know better than that Christopher I used to live there. And you call yourself his brother making him go all the way to Nashville to put down some records when you could’ve helped him put them down right there. I definitely know who not to ask if I ever need help putting some records down.(I hope yer at least smiling)
Well I wish him the best, but that is a tough man eating business bud. Almost killed my Dad.
[quote]I said: Rejoicing is a command[/quote] [quote]Dearest Christopher wrote:<<< So is ash and sack cloth. [/quote]Not in the New Testament.
Hmm, well I respectfully disagree. There are many things that ‘enslave’ yet aren’t necessarily bad. I see these types of slippery slopes where a behavior or notion, several degrees removed from a core tenant is as still ‘bad’ but not implicitly so. Many things can fit that definition, and if you don’t check in with the core of the teaching such notions can get out of control.
Paul really appears to be invoking a moderation, rather than a condemnation of repeatative behaviours. There is a difference for instance of saying “Shit!” when you drop something and using a ‘colorful metaphor’ for every other word.
[/quote]
I don’t have much time, so just a few quick thoughts. This point was only one of several; it was not my primary point. I can agree that things like watching television, eaten chocolate, etc. are not inherently evil, but once you become enslaved to a particular thing, it IS evil for you. And with something like cussing, as you freely admit is the case for you at the bottom, it’s a bit of a habit already. In my experience and in the experience of many others, cussing is more difficult to quit, especially since the reasons why you generally cuss aren’t simply to tell knock-knock jokes, but either (1) to entertain others through derogatory or other crude statements (sexual suggestive remarks, sexual jokes, etc.), or (2) to attack people. In other words, we use swearing mostly in the wrong contexts ANYWAY. Once you start swearing, it becomes harder not to swear in those contexts. In other words, once you allow yourself too much leniency in an area, it becomes difficult to control yourself in other areas.
This last statement is false (except, apparently, in the case of Mr. Chen). There are host of cultural and sociological factors that dictate what words people think are taboo AND how people respond to them. In our world, we are terrified of germs, so there are things we won’t touch and will actively yell at other for touching. In a different part of the world, where they have no conception of germs, the same taboos don’t apply. The point is, our reaction to certain things (like cuss words) is socially determined. Tirib doesn’t CHOOSE to be offended; he (like many of us) has grown up in a culture that has INGRAINED IN US the notion that we SHOULD be offended by those words. Consequently, even if they are just words, in THIS society and THIS culture, they ARE offensive.
What I meant by getting caught up in, or leading to legalism, is putting so much emphasis on the rules that you ignore why they are there and in the end, no matter how little the violation.
I think this is a bit of a fuzzy issue, from my point of view, I don’t see cussing bad at all. To me it’s like a little spice or garnish to make language more interesting. If I did think it was a bad thing I would strive to eliminate it. But I don’t. I enjoy it actually. I know when not to say them and in which company it’s less abrasive vs. more. So it isn’t an absence of control.
Could I stop cussing all together, sure if I put my mind to it, but I am not interested in that. We live in a world that is rife with evil. I tend to like to call things I as I see them, which in some cases requires the use of a few choice words…
As far as the admonition of being trusted in small matters vs. large. I mean really, what’s the implication of dropping the occasional f-bomb? Not much. Even in really sensitive company I don’t see the implication being that big.
I do believe the biblical admonitions refer to things like the little girl next door who like to play with my daughter. When ever she comes over, she fills her pockets with every piece of candy she can get her hands on and drink every Gatorade she can carry too.
In that case, I don’t trust her not one bit.
I guess the question really boils down to, can you trust a person who cusses with your life. And most unequivocally I answer yes. I am responsible for lives and they get the best care I can possibly provide.
Even if you expound cussing to it ultimate most vulgar point, at worse it’s a little unpleasant. If I am the biggest cusser in the world, and that’s the worst thing you could say about me, then I am doing really good.
And when comes to flaws, if you see this as one, it’s the least of my problems.
When it comes to say Matthew 25:14 - 30 for instance, it’s about trust. If you are trust worthy in small things then you are trust worthy in large matters. If you are able to forgive small trespasses than likely you will be able forgive large trespasses. If use your talents well in small matters, you will use them well in larger matters.
If you cuss a little, you might cuss more in larger matters. Ever try to push in an actuated rear brake caliper piston? If that doesn’t make you cuss like a sailor, nothing will. Big deal…
In the end you do know this all this was, was another dig, or attempt to by Chen to bring me down, right? It has no real value, it’s just another attempt to bring me down based on minutia. [/quote]
Hey, EVERYONE on here can see what Chen is doing. His last couple points have definitely been petty, personal attacks, whether with the “Holy Father” thing or with his questioning of your moral credentials, and I don’t like it. I think it’s absolutely wrong. We ALL have our weaknesses and you don’t disprove someone’s beliefs by pointing out where you think they are in the process of sanctification. That’s not just intellectually fallacious; it’s spiritually oppressive. And frankly, if he is going to respond to you with intentional sarcasm BECAUSE you swear and attack him back, then he is being extremely hypocritical in questioning YOUR moral standing. The attitude is more important than the particular form the attitude takes (“G” rated sarcasm vs. cussing). I too would LOVE to move this thread back into the realm of substantive discussion, as it was originally intended.
That being said, I do reserve the right to disagree with something substantive, i.e., whether or not swearing is morally significant, an issue which both you and Brother Chris chimed in on. My point, once again, is that any behavior that becomes uncontrollable should be scrutinized, and the reason is that, once you start letting something else control YOU, it becomes harder for you to control other things. Once someone starts regularly allowing themselves to admire the hotties on the street, it becomes harder to stop doing that, and it can lead to other things (porn, for example). That’s why the “little things” DO matter. That was my point. On the most banal and basic level, this is why we know that children who like to kills small animals will likely one day enjoy doing the same thing to humans.
Furthermore, I was making the point that, except perhaps in the case of Mr. Chen (who chose to interpret your use of a word as having connotations he found offensive, regardless of what you actually meant by that word), people don’t CHOOSE to be offended by swearing. We Protestants don’t think matter is bad; but because certain words are considered uncouth and crass in our culture, and because they are used in contexts we find morally repugnant, many of us choose not to use them. What you say is your choice - I am not here to condemn you - but you can’t accuse Tiribulus or any other Protestant (except Mr. Chen) of CHOOSING to get offended by cussing. He didn’t choose to be offended any more than you choose to detest the thought of wearing lipstick.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Reason why he’s going to Nashville to put down some records. >>>[/quote]Why’s he carryin em around like that? There’s no room to put em down in Phoenix? I know better than that Christopher I used to live there. And you call yourself his brother making him go all the way to Nashville to put down some records when you could’ve helped him put them down right there. I definitely know who not to ask if I ever need help putting some records down.(I hope yer at least smiling)
Well I wish him the best, but that is a tough man eating business bud. Almost killed my Dad.
[quote]I said: Rejoicing is a command[/quote] [quote]Dearest Christopher wrote:<<< So is ash and sack cloth. [/quote]Not in the New Testament.
[/quote]
Luke 10:13 and Matthew 11:21, Jesus says, “ash and sackcloth.”
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m going to have to point out that you’re assuming that 1) these words are bad and 2) when you use them you can’t stop saying them. [/quote]
I’m assuming that if someone else believes that they are bad, it would be wrong to use those words in front of them. And once you start using them, it does become more difficult for many people to stop saying them, in which case, for those people, I think it would be wrong.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
I’m going to have to point out that you’re assuming that 1) these words are bad and 2) when you use them you can’t stop saying them. [/quote]
I’m assuming that if someone else believes that they are bad, it would be wrong to use those words in front of them. And once you start using them, it does become more difficult for many people to stop saying them, in which case, for those people, I think it would be wrong.[/quote]
Okay, but I don’t use those words in front of people. Just like I don’t talk to the homeless guy like he’s my thesis advisor. You have to respect people’s sensibilities.
Is cussing or profanity (to use common language) immoral or a mortal sin?
Well, let’s first remember the first three requirements for something to be a mortal sin: grave matter, full knowledge, and full and free consent of the will. If one of those three are lacking, well it is not a mortal sin.
So, the proper question of course is profanity a grave matter? The question is not is profanity a mortal sin. Only the individual can answer the latter, by discerning if the other two requirements are met.
So, is profanity a grave matter? No. But, then again it depends on what you mean by profanity. We of course are not talking about blaspheme, as we have all agreed that is a grave matter. Profanity is usually considered vulgar words for body parts and functions of the body, as opposed to blaspheme and irreverence of our Lord.
For this question, we’ll assume that all words, that are not blasphemous, that are seen as objectionable are to be referred to as profanity. To the extent that profanity is used to abuse a person or God, it would be considered a grave matter.
To the extent that profanity is used unthinkingly, for lack of more refined expressions, it is rude. However, it is not necessarily sinful. When I use rude I refer to lacking social grace or education in civility.
Now, if one is rude, on purpose, such as being ill-mannered, it may constitute a sin, depending on how grave the offense is, of course.
