[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Protestant Church historian J.N.D. Kelly wrote about the issue, "As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was ‘universal’ or ‘general.’ . . . In the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations (cf., e.g., Muratorian Fragment). . . .
[/quote]
The Muratorian fragment is more likely 4th century. Did Kelly list any other examples?
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:<<< I agree with Tirib >>>[/quote] An excellent policy indeed LOL!!! Of course I’m jist kiddin. Also of course, your exposition of the use of spoken communication is spot on. That is precisely the group of points I was making. Rather than wasting time and energy seeking what I might get away with? I just don’t go there. Why would I? Is it some kind of price to simply not use certain questionable words? Some Catholics act like you’re asking them to give up something precious by pointing out that God does attend to every last little syllable we utter, in what context and why, especially as Christians in His name. It’s almost like they view it as if your trying to GET them to cuss… in reverse. “WELL… I never!!! You won’t EVER catch ME talking without profanity. HMMMFFF!!! What sorta vulgar simpleton do you think I am? Some kinda puritan or something?”. Nose in air, nostrils flared and hips wiggling as they stomp off in a curiously upside down self unrighteous huff. Too many Novenas or something. I haven’t been able to figure it out.
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
BC, your response here completely flies in the face of Paul’s admonitions in 1 Corinthians 8-10. I don’t remember Paul saying, “hey, if you’re weaker brethren think eating food sacrificed to idols is actually an act of idolatry (because they believe that idols are, in some sense, “real”), tell them to grow up! Better yet, eat it right in front of them! Rub their faces in it!” [/quote]
No. I clearly stated to Tirib in my first reply that I do not scandalize. That is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 8-10, do not scandalize. I take great care of what I say in front of other people.
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
Protestant Church historian J.N.D. Kelly wrote about the issue, "As regards ‘Catholic,’ its original meaning was ‘universal’ or ‘general.’ . . . In the latter half of the second century at latest, we find it conveying the suggestion that the Catholic is the true Church as distinct from heretical congregations (cf., e.g., Muratorian Fragment). . . .
[/quote]
The Muratorian fragment is more likely 4th century. Did Kelly list any other examples?[/quote]
Not sure. I pulled the quote from my notes.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
BC, your response here completely flies in the face of Paul’s admonitions in 1 Corinthians 8-10. I don’t remember Paul saying, “hey, if you’re weaker brethren think eating food sacrificed to idols is actually an act of idolatry (because they believe that idols are, in some sense, “real”), tell them to grow up! Better yet, eat it right in front of them! Rub their faces in it!” [/quote]No. I clearly stated to Tirib in my first reply that I do not scandalize. That is the meaning of 1 Corinthians 8-10, do not scandalize. I take great care of what I say in front of other people.[/quote]Come on Chris. Stop bein so prickly and sensitive will ya. This is not about you. It’s about a set of scriptural principles and subsequent practice that requires deliberate self deception to escape. Whatever language is considered base, vulgar, profane or even unnecessarily worldly in whatever society you happen to be standing at the moment? That language is unwise at best and plainly sinful at worst. Simply avoid and thereby remain above reproach for His name’s sake. Really Brother. You are really gonna argue with that?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Come on Chris. Stop bein so prickly and sensitive will ya.
[/quote]
I’m not. He said something that was not true about me. I corrected him. That’s it, i’m not going to go on for pages about this. How that is being prickly and sensitive I’m not sure.
I think there is someone else here that is sensitive.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I’m not. He said something that was not true about me. I corrected him.[/quote]Nobody said anything about how YOU talk. Your unavoidably maturing conscience has shown maturing as I’ve said. It’s the rationalization of an erroneous principle for no good and godly reason that is in question. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< That’s it, I’m not going to go on for pages about this. >>>[/quote]Good. Glad we got it settled then. =) [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< How that is being prickly and sensitive I’m not sure. >>>[/quote]I could go on for pages, but since we’re not doing that I’ll just say that you do seem irritated and edgy the last several weeks. The things we discuss are of the gravest import to be sure, but you used to smile around here. I could “feel” it even tough I can’t see you as weird as that sounds. Not so much anymore.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I think there is someone else here that is sensitive.[/quote]THERE IS!!! WHERE?!?!?!? Right when we get you straightened you out there has to emerge some other joykill? Scandalous!!! I shall suffer not the knave to remain.
[quote]KingKai25 wrote:
Moreover, Paul also urges us to avoid allowing anything to enslave us (1 Cor. 6:12), and cussing is a habit that enslaves. Once you start, it is VERY hard to stop (I know from past experience). That ALONE should be enough to dissuade us from it. All things may be permissible for me, but I will NOT let myself be enslaved by anything. Furthermore, since (even if only through social indoctrination, i.e., learned behavior) people cuss most when they are expressing anger, it seems to me that cussing is one way we give into our evil desires. Should we not resist that behavior, even if the words themselves are not INHERENTLY wrong? I agree with Tirib - God does not want his people swearing like truck drivers (Christian or otherwise :), especially since this behavior enslaves, hurts other brethren, and can damage our witness. [/quote]
Hmm, well I respectfully disagree. There are many things that ‘enslave’ yet aren’t necessarily bad. I see these types of slippery slopes where a behavior or notion, several degrees removed from a core tenant is as still ‘bad’ but not implicitly so. Many things can fit that definition, and if you don’t check in with the core of the teaching such notions can get out of control. For instance, you can watch to much TV, you can read to much, you can work to much, you can paly video games to much, you can eat chocolate to much, you can clean to much, etc. The activities on their own aren’t bad, but it can cross this invisible line of being enslaved to it? Well, what is the purpose on connotation of what Paul was saying. I think we need to look at the text first:
" “All things are lawful for me,” but not all things are helpful. “All things are lawful for me,” but I will not be dominated by anything.
(1 Corinthians 6:12 ESV)
Paul really appears to be invoking a moderation, rather than a condemnation of repeatative behaviours. There is a difference for instance of saying “Shit!” when you drop something and using a ‘colorful metaphor’ for every other word.
That doesn’t mean cussing is good, and it may be even a little bad sometimes. I see it as language that adds a little color to life. It can be used as mean and derogatory of course, but it can also be down right amusing and bring laughter.
The only reasons that these words at all contentious is that people choose to be offended by them.
In the end, I really don’t see the big deal. It’s such a small thing. People makes a huge deal over it is both time consuming and pointless. I think it’s very important to not get caught up in minutia. When you start getting caught up in little things, then you start (not ‘you’ specifically, ‘you’ as in people) you get in to the dreaded legalism. I guarantee that’s how the pharisees lost their way, and it was they who received the harshest condemnations from Our Lord. Be clear that they were following the law strenuously too.
Sure it made be hard to stop cussing, I have no desire to stop so I am not going to find out. I did quit smoking, if I can do that, I can do anything so I ain’t worried.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
I’d rather have a filthy mouth than a purty mouth…[/quote]
Well, then I guess nicknaming you Nancy P is spot on.
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-501563_162-4849452.html[/quote]
Can we then move on to ‘Yo mama…’ insults, then?
Cannot read.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I think there is someone else here that is sensitive.[/quote][quote]I wrote:<<<THERE IS!!! WHERE?!?!?!? Right when we get you straightened you out there has to emerge some other joykill? Scandalous!!! I shall suffer not the knave to remain.[/quote]See what great partners we make Christopher? You fixed the rest and I got this last part. Thanks.(I was only kiddin ya about the quote tag thing the other night I hope you know.) [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Cannot read.[/quote]Says the guy who completed Thomas’s Summa Theologica. Enough with the phoney excuses huh? You can too read.
(this is where you hopefully chortle with me just a bit and realize we can be adversaries without being enemies. I’m jist playin around with ya man)
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Says the guy who completed Thomas’s Summa Theologica. Enough with the phoney excuses huh? You can too read.
[/quote]
No I cannot really read what you wrote with your wonderful quote tags.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
I’d rather have a filthy mouth than a purty mouth…[/quote]
Well, then I guess nicknaming you Nancy P is spot on.
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-501563_162-4849452.html[/quote]
Can we then move on to ‘Yo mama…’ insults, then? [/quote]
That’s your style, not mine:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]WW3General wrote:
Sloth- You don’t want to know what gods love feels like? Or have you already found out?
It is Stockholm Syndrome you don’t have to be embarassed it happens.
I think it is funny that you can not even deal with me saying that about you on an internet thread, but you seem not to care at all that some little boy had to go through that in real life.
For the record-
Fuck- all religion (catholics too)
and all you catholic child molesting supporters.[/quote]
Oh yeah! I fucked your mom last night!.. LOL![/quote]
It’s from the thread Come On In and Have a Seat Over There, pg 1. Oh I know, you’re just giving as good as you get.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Says the guy who completed Thomas’s Summa Theologica. Enough with the phoney excuses huh? You can too read.[/quote]No I cannot really read what you wrote with your wonderful quote tags.[/quote]Can’t we have any fun anymore Chris? I had the convention down for nesting in this forum software and then I forgot it after not having down it for a week or so. Smile brother. Rejoice in the Lord always and again I say REJOICE. He is overflowing in loving kindness and faithful to all generations. Maybe it’s your turn. Go ahead and joke around with me about sumthin. I insist.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote: Nose in air, nostrils flared and hips wiggling as they stomp off in a curiously upside down self unrighteous huff. Too many Novenas or something. I haven’t been able to figure it out.
[/quote]
There is no evidence that Nancy P has ever been seen acting like this. You go too far.
[quote]pat wrote:
Hmm, well I respectfully disagree. There are many things that ‘enslave’ yet aren’t necessarily bad. I see these types of slippery slopes where a behavior or notion, several degrees removed from a core tenant is as still ‘bad’ but not implicitly so. Many things can fit that definition, and if you don’t check in with the core of the teaching such notions can get out of control.
Paul really appears to be invoking a moderation, rather than a condemnation of repeatative behaviours. There is a difference for instance of saying “Shit!” when you drop something and using a ‘colorful metaphor’ for every other word.
[/quote]
I don’t have much time, so just a few quick thoughts. This point was only one of several; it was not my primary point. I can agree that things like watching television, eaten chocolate, etc. are not inherently evil, but once you become enslaved to a particular thing, it IS evil for you. And with something like cussing, as you freely admit is the case for you at the bottom, it’s a bit of a habit already. In my experience and in the experience of many others, cussing is more difficult to quit, especially since the reasons why you generally cuss aren’t simply to tell knock-knock jokes, but either (1) to entertain others through derogatory or other crude statements (sexual suggestive remarks, sexual jokes, etc.), or (2) to attack people. In other words, we use swearing mostly in the wrong contexts ANYWAY. Once you start swearing, it becomes harder not to swear in those contexts. In other words, once you allow yourself too much leniency in an area, it becomes difficult to control yourself in other areas.
[quote[
That doesn’t mean cussing is good, and it may be even a little bad sometimes. I see it as language that adds a little color to life. It can be used as mean and derogatory of course, but it can also be down right amusing and bring laughter.
The only reasons that these words at all contentious is that people choose to be offended by them.
[/quote[
This last statement is false (except, apparently, in the case of Mr. Chen). There are host of cultural and sociological factors that dictate what words people think are taboo AND how people respond to them. In our world, we are terrified of germs, so there are things we won’t touch and will actively yell at other for touching. In a different part of the world, where they have no conception of germs, the same taboos don’t apply. The point is, our reaction to certain things (like cuss words) is socially determined. Tirib doesn’t CHOOSE to be offended; he (like many of us) has grown up in a culture that has INGRAINED IN US the notion that we SHOULD be offended by those words. Consequently, even if they are just words, in THIS society and THIS culture, they ARE offensive.
[quote]
In the end, I really don’t see the big deal. It’s such a small thing. People makes a huge deal over it is both time consuming and pointless. I think it’s very important to not get caught up in minutia. When you start getting caught up in little things, then you start (not ‘you’ specifically, ‘you’ as in people) you get in to the dreaded legalism. I guarantee that’s how the pharisees lost their way, and it was they who received the harshest condemnations from Our Lord. Be clear that they were following the law strenuously too.
Sure it made be hard to stop cussing, I have no desire to stop so I am not going to find out. I did quit smoking, if I can do that, I can do anything so I ain’t worried.[/quote]
The little things count. Jesus said, “he who is faithful in a very little is faithful also in much, but he who is unrighteous in a very little is unrighteous also in much” (Lk 16:10). What you do in the “little things” is an indication of what you will do in the big things.
I’ve said this before and I’ll probably say it a million more times in my life, but the Pharisees issue was not “legalism,” if by legalism you mean demanding TOO much of people. If you read Matthew 5-7, you’ll see that Jesus was WAY more invasive than the Pharisees - he wants you to control your thought life, not just whether or not you actively cheat on your wife physically. The Pharisees failed because they put too much emphasis on the minors ONLY and neglected the “weightier matters” of the law (Matt. 23:23). Nevertheless, Jesus said, “you should have practiced the latter (the weightier matters) without neglecting the former (the so-called “little things”).” Jesus expects A LOT from us, both in the minors and the majors, and your performance in the minors indicates how you will perform in the majors.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Says the guy who completed Thomas’s Summa Theologica. Enough with the phoney excuses huh? You can too read.[/quote]No I cannot really read what you wrote with your wonderful quote tags.[/quote]Can’t we have any fun anymore Chris? I had the convention down for nesting in this forum software and then I forgot it after not having down it for a week or so. Smile brother. Rejoice in the Lord always and again I say REJOICE. He is overflowing in loving kindness and faithful to all generations. Maybe it’s your turn. Go ahead and joke around with me about sumthin. I insist. [/quote]
There is no rejoicing in hell week (read: reading week, 22 hours of silence a day).
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Says the guy who completed Thomas’s Summa Theologica. Enough with the phoney excuses huh? You can too read.[/quote]No I cannot really read what you wrote with your wonderful quote tags.[/quote]Can’t we have any fun anymore Chris? I had the convention down for nesting in this forum software and then I forgot it after not having down it for a week or so. Smile brother. Rejoice in the Lord always and again I say REJOICE. He is overflowing in loving kindness and faithful to all generations. Maybe it’s your turn. Go ahead and joke around with me about sumthin. I insist. [/quote]
Just got back from running this brother’s jam session.
Good catholic YM. Though it was acoustic tonight.
Work hard. Work to your limit. Being indifferent is worse than being bad.