[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
the great majority of those in communion with her.
[/quote]
So you know the great majority of those in the Communion of Saints? That’s 25% of the people in America…you must be an excellent people person. Not even the fact that most Catholics aren’t even in America.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
A one man spiritual seal team
[/quote]
No such thing, even Jesus sent out the Apostles in two by two. That’s why I have a mission partner.
Plus don’t forget what Jesus said about the Catholic Church, “the gates of Hades u shall not prevail against it” Matthew 16:18.
Glad I don’t have to rely on my feeble human mind but I can rely on divine authority (ST II-II.4.1), where the fact that it really has been revealed by God can be confirmed by the miracles performed by the one through whom God revealed it (ST II-II.2.9).
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
the great majority of those in communion with her.
[/quote]
So you know the great majority of those in the Communion of Saints? [/quote]Let’s stick to the United States for now. The most prominent and powerful country in history with a huge Catholic population. Deny what I said. In front of all these people. Go ahead.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
A one man spiritual seal team
[/quote]
No such thing, even Jesus sent out the Apostles in two by two. That’s why I have a mission partner.
Plus don’t forget what Jesus said about the Catholic Church, “the gates of Hades u shall not prevail against it” Matthew 16:18.
Glad I don’t have to rely on my feeble human mind but I can rely on divine authority (ST II-II.4.1), where the fact that it really has been revealed by God can be confirmed by the miracles performed by the one through whom God revealed it (ST II-II.2.9).
[/quote]You REALLY are missin it man. OF COURSE I don’t mean you are supposed to live and operate on your own. I was speaking to the power I see coming in YOUR life. Come on Chris. This is all the credit I get?
We’ve been over the Lord’s promise of the gates of hell not prevailing against His church ten times already at least. The fact of their long long ago prevailing over yours is proof positive that she is not His church. In fact, unless you think THE church can be attacked by some gates you have the whole interpretation of that passage wrong.
You don’t really wanna go to miracles now do ya? Jesus Himself said that signs and wonders would be performed in His very name by some of those He NEVER knew. “Many”, in fact.
EDIT: What is this “feeble mind” crap here now. You have no such thing and you know it. God has gifted each man for His service and glory. As long as that man lives in surrender to the living Word of God in his heart testifying to the written Word of God in his hands, there is nothing wrong with using his mind to it’s fullest. In fact it would be sin not to. We’re gonna get there, but that’s what this is ALLL about for you. Mark my words.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
I deny this emphatically. The reason is simple. I do not believe the early christian church = the Roman Catholic church.[/quote]
And that is your history fail. It’s wishful thinking and that’s all.
I know facts won’t stand in the way of your ad hoc fantasy…[/quote]
It appears Pat you only know as much as Kingkai posts.
Then you send my a one page timeline to cover hundreds of years. There was more going on than just a few big names and councils Pat. It seems to me you know about as much as can be found in a junior high school textbook.
A famous archeologist once said “all history is fiction”. Can you explain the meaning of this to me? Not Kingkai, but you Pat.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Let’s stick to the United States for now. The most prominent and powerful country in history with a huge Catholic population. Deny what I said. In front of all these people. Go ahead.
[/quote]
I still deny that the church tolerates apostasy. Because the Church has only one Magisterium, so pointing to America is like trying to separate a man’s elbow from the rest of his arm.
You haven’t shown any evidence at all. All you have done so far is make appeals to people’s behaviors – I wonder if it the size would be big enough to be considered a statistical sample – which in no way represents what the actual church does or does not tolerate. You haven’t once pointed out what the church tolerates/teaches.
If we’re making appeals to people’s behaviors, America has the biggest population of Protestants and the highest concentration of Protestants outside of Germany. The current behavior in America can be nothing but explained by Protestant influence. Pornography, abortion, contraception, adultery, co-habitation, &c. &c. &c. I’d go so far as to say that the marginal catholics (I’d put the number a year ago at 2/3rds, now I have no clue as everyone and his mama is becoming quite orthodoxy since Obama decided to wage an impossible war against us) are an attempt to fit into protestant America.
Want to talk about tolerance, look at the Anglican strains (even doctrinally): gay marriage, contraception, abortion, co-habitation, &c. are all fine. I mean the only place you see anything that could be considered orthodox are those who affectionately refer to themselves as Anglican-Catholics. Most of them I project, somewhat arrogantly, will come back into communion with the CC within 25 years.
This whole coming out of the Church thing seems very flippant of you.
Why? I just finished St. Louis de Montfort’s Way of Total Consecration to Jesus Through Mary. I bow to statues, I bow to the altar, I genuflect at the tabernacle, I pray to Mary, I pray to the Saints, I honor and venerate them. I call Jesus my King, the Pope his Servant. I go on pilgrimages to shrines and holy sites. I make shrines. I go to confession because I’m a terrible Catholic. I go to daily mass, and I started a Rosary guild for the ladies on my campus. I fast and practice hard works of mortification. I pray five times a day, and I am a prominent member and exec. member and a chair for the pro-life committee of the Catholic fraternity on campus, I am an exec member of the Catholic Pro-life movement on campus, and I am the president, have been vp and secretary, of the secular pro-life movement on my campus. I kneel and kiss my Bishops ring, and call him Your Excellency. I make a daily holy hour. I am an 8th grade Catechist and assistant wrestling coach at the Catholic HS.
No, none of those reasons are why I won’t come out of the Church. Those are things I do because of the reason why I am Catholic. I am first and foremost a Catholic because of my covenantal and personal relationship with Jesus, as my bridegroom. I am Catholic because Jesus Christ founded the Church on St. Peter and the Apostles (with him as the Head), giving them the Sacraments and Divine Revelation once and for all, so that they – the Apostles and their successors – could teach and guide, making disciples of all Nations, and teaching them to observe all that Jesus have commanded us; and because He promised,“I am with you always, to the close of the age.” And, to accept Jesus and reject his Church is to disembody him.
“I would not believe the holy Gospels if it were not for the authority of the Holy Catholic Church.” - St. Augustine
And KingKai, let’s let Pat munch on this one himself. I’m sure you know what the quote is getting at. So if Pat doesn’t have something decent on it say after 24 hrs, than you address a post to him, and explain the importance of what the statement is getting at, and how it relates to our discussion of the early church period.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
We’ve been over the Lord’s promise of the gates of hell not prevailing against His church ten times already at least.[/quote]
Yes, you have explained your private interpretation of that scripture many times, and I prayed to the Holy Ghost and I came to another interpretation. Mine happens to be inline with the early Christians’ writings and beliefs and not surprisingly the Catholic Church
[quote]EDIT: What is this “feeble mind” crap here now. You have no such thing and you know it.
[/quote]
Yes, my mind is quite feeble, man’s intellects are the most feeble of all intellects. I assume that I have the weakest of the weakest, probably is why they marked me as “special” all my academic career.
But, nevertheless of all those things that are referred to as persons: God being first, then angels in vertical hierarchy, then last – man. We are the dumbest or lowest of spirits and the highest animals (actually we’re the only animal with an intellect, but hierarchy-wise we are the highest animal). Congratulations! Good thing for transfiguration, once we die our minds are given beatitude vision then we’ll be higher than the angels <— one of the reasons why Lucifer got upset…God made us to be higher than the highest angel, Lucifer. LAWL.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
so he surely would be labelled anti-catholic.
[/quote]
So, you admit he’s a bigot. Thanks for admitting you quote bigots to make your point. [/quote]
Is he a bigot? Is he intolerant of others opinions? It seems you are a bit intolerant of his opinions; that would make you bigoted.
[/quote]
So a Jew should be tolerant of an anti-semitic’s point of view, a black man should be tolerant of the opinions of a Klansman? Woman should be tolerant of a misogynist’s opinion?
I don’t want to accuse you of not making the distinction between not tolerating someone’s opinion and not tolerating a person. But, it seems you aren’t. [/quote]
I originally cited Manhattan because he wrote about the wealth of the RCC. Personally, I’ll read anyone. I feel no pain if the writer is bigoted towards me or someone else. Of course the author’s point of view should be taken into account, but you can’t always gather facts from people with the same angle.
I would have posted this last night, but my ineternet connection went down:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I still deny that the church tolerates apostasy. Because the Church has only one Magisterium, so pointing to America is like trying to separate a man’s elbow from the rest of his arm. >>>[/quote]Oh my blessed Lord Jesus have mercy on me with this man. I can’t Chris. I can’t do it tonight. If I ever catch up with you I’m gonna hug you with one arm and choke you with the other.
Lemme check real quick… YEP that was me saying “scratch apostasy” not the best word in this context. I dunno. Maybe the Characters are comin up Swahili on your screen or sumthin? I saw the rest too. Ya know? Despite bein a cosmic ulcer inducing pain in my rear Christopher you are worth every bit of this =] Til tomorrow, farewell big C.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< You haven’t shown any evidence at all. All you have done so far is make appeals to people’s behaviors – I wonder if it the size would be big enough to be considered a statistical sample – which in no way represents what the actual church does or does not tolerate. You haven’t once pointed out what the church tolerates/teaches. >>>[/quote]Listen to me very closely. It makes no difference WHAT the Church(can’t forget that big C)teaches because nobody cares. They show up, dip the finger, sign of the cross, genuflect, “and also with you”, take communion and go on about their unchanged anti Christian pagan lives as if Jesus didn’t exist. They MIGHT be politically conservative, but NOT even that necessarily.
Why? Because their “Church” lives in prepetual rank disobedience to Paul’s apostolic command in 1st Corinthians 5. If that were carried out today there would be crickets chirping in America’s Parishes next Sunday.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< If we’re making appeals to people’s behaviors, America has the biggest population of Protestants and the highest concentration of Protestants outside of Germany. The current behavior in America can be nothing but explained by Protestant influence. Pornography, abortion, contraception, adultery, co-habitation, &c. &c. &c. I’d go so far as to say that the marginal catholics (I’d put the number a year ago at 2/3rds, now I have no clue as everyone and his mama is becoming quite orthodoxy since Obama decided to wage an impossible war against us) are an attempt to fit into protestant America. Want to talk about tolerance, look at the Anglican strains (even doctrinally): gay marriage, contraception, abortion, co-habitation, &c. are all fine. >>>[/quote]Ohhhhh my precious Brother Chris. You are beautiful man, but I’m still savin this for Sloth for the time being. [quote]Sloth wrote 02-10-2012, 01:08 AM:<<< Newsflash, there’s no more spiritually dead faith in this country than your beloved Calvinistic-Puritan-whatchamadoodle. Oh yes, Tirib, ‘your folks’ certainly were the face of early America, for the most part. But, look at their descendents now. Look at those folks’ country now. Eviscerated. Hollowed out. Their sons and daughters secularists. Where still religious, splintered into a multitude of squabbling denominations who’ve apparently arrived at different understandings, via sola scripture. >>>[/quote]We’ll get there too. He handed me a six foot solid oak club with which to bludgeon him with this post. It took him no time to figure it out. He put me on ignore when I challenged him on it. He is VERY sharp, but emotion and impulse got the best of him here.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< This whole coming out of the Church thing seems very flippant of you. >>>[/quote]Nothing could be further from the truth.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Why? I just finished St. Louis de Montfort’s Way of Total Consecration to Jesus Through Mary. I bow to statues, I bow to the altar, I genuflect at the tabernacle, I pray to Mary, I pray to the Saints, I honor and venerate them. I call Jesus my King, the Pope his Servant. I go on pilgrimages to shrines and holy sites. I make shrines. I go to confession because I’m a terrible Catholic. I go to daily mass, and I started a Rosary guild for the ladies on my campus. I fast and practice hard works of mortification. I pray five times a day, and I am a prominent member and exec. member and a chair for the pro-life committee of the Catholic fraternity on campus, I am an exec member of the Catholic Pro-life movement on campus, and I am the president, have been vp and secretary, of the secular pro-life movement on my campus. I kneel and kiss my Bishops ring, and call him Your Excellency. I make a daily holy hour. I am an 8th grade Catechist and assistant wrestling coach at the Catholic HS. >>>[/quote]Ya know how I know the Lord is working in me where you’re concerned Christopher? Because I had a very very sarcastic and very VERY funny retort to this that would have hurt you deeply had I posted it. I won’t do it. KingKai would have hated himself, but he WOULD have been crackin up. I’ll just say you’re right on schedule. Keep up the good work.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< No, none of those reasons are why I won’t come out of the Church. Those are things I do because of the reason why I am Catholic. I am first and foremost a Catholic because of my covenantal and personal relationship with Jesus, as my bridegroom. I am Catholic because Jesus Christ founded the Church on St. Peter and the Apostles (with him as the Head), giving them the Sacraments and Divine Revelation once and for all, so that they – the Apostles and their successors – could teach and guide, making disciples of all Nations, and teaching them to observe all that Jesus have commanded us; and because He promised,“I am with you always, to the close of the age.” And, to accept Jesus and reject his Church is to disembody him. >>>[/quote]None of these are the reasons why you’re a Catholic Chris. NONE. I KNOW why, but I will discuss that with you offline for now at least.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< “I would not believe the holy Gospels if it were not for the authority of the Holy Catholic Church.” - St. Augustine[/quote]I agree with the Bishop of Hippo.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
And KingKai, let’s let Pat munch on this one himself. I’m sure you know what the quote is getting at. So if Pat doesn’t have something decent on it say after 24 hrs, than you address a post to him, and explain the importance of what the statement is getting at, and how it relates to our discussion of the early church period.[/quote]
Yes, it merely means that when dealing with history the closest you can get is 2nd hand information. And that would be like a hand written letter say by John Adams that you have physical access to. Asside from those type of sources, you are largely relying on hearsay with a smattering of physical evidence to back it up.
So in one sense the it’s true that all history is fiction in that, you can’t really know what happened because you weren’t their.
In another it’s just a catchy phrase devoid of any real meaning. Because, history can be very accurate too, verifiablity is the problem and the further you go back the harder it is to verify because you information sets get smaller. Archeology can add to the information set, but only so much.
So when it comes to history, the most accurate history is that which has the most consensus and archaeological evidence to back it up. That which has less consensus is considered less accurate especially if it’s pitted against that which has greater consensus and /or archaeological evidence.
Now more accurately it should be said that all history is suspect and that is 100% true. The question is what are you willing to do about it, meaning how much digging are you willing to do? And in the end your still mainly just trusting people to be telling you the truth. Since most of them are dead and their times have past, it’s almost impossible to know. But if their accounts line up with physical evidence and other accounts, it’s largly considered to be true.
Now, it’s ok if you want to apply this kind of scrutiny to history, but you have to apply it evenly across the board to everything including the historical accounts in the bible, if you intend on being academically fair and accurate.
What you cannot do is take the notion that all history is suspect, and apply it to say that what I account as history is then false and your replacement for it is true. Your replacement has to have a consensus and physical credibility to debunk the other account. You cannot just say it and it be true.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
I deny this emphatically. The reason is simple. I do not believe the early christian church = the Roman Catholic church.[/quote]
And that is your history fail. It’s wishful thinking and that’s all.
I know facts won’t stand in the way of your ad hoc fantasy…[/quote]
It appears Pat you only know as much as Kingkai posts.
Then you send my a one page timeline to cover hundreds of years. There was more going on than just a few big names and councils Pat. It seems to me you know about as much as can be found in a junior high school textbook.
A famous archeologist once said “all history is fiction”. Can you explain the meaning of this to me? Not Kingkai, but you Pat.[/quote]
I certainly do admire KingKai’s academic prowess, but I assure you the facts I present were mine. It doesn’t matter if you believe me or not, the facts speak for themselves. Even if I stole them shamelessly.
[quote]honest_lifter wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
…points out what appears to be glaring inconsistencies between teaching and practice…
[/quote]
Tirib, I do see what you are talking about, and I believe that you have a genuine anger (something along the lines of righteous anger) about how some members preach one thing and do another. Sometimes it is best to not force the issue, as it falls of deaf ears. I found myself getting to that point in these threads and just had to walk away. I have made clear the views of Jehovah’s Witnesses and I realize my energies are better spent elsewhere.
For others reading this, this is not a personal attack on anyone. It is friendly advice from one person to another.
[/quote]
Hey HL! Good to see you, hope all is well…Still lookin’ swole!
[quote]orion wrote:
Do they kill people that defect?
No?
Tolerance!
Cause, thats all that it means yaknow?[/quote]
Yeah, we’ve seen how tolerant those atheist countries are. They have a boon on tolerance… LOL
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Yes, my mind is quite feeble, man’s intellects are the most feeble of all intellects. I assume that I have the weakest of the weakest, probably is why they marked me as “special” all my academic career. >>>[/quote]Oh stop it with this already will ya?[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< But, nevertheless of all those things that are referred to as persons: God being first, then angels in vertical hierarchy, then last – man. We are the dumbest or lowest of spirits and the highest animals (actually we’re the only animal with an intellect, but hierarchy-wise we are the highest animal). Congratulations! Good thing for transfiguration, once we die our minds are given beatitude vision then we’ll be higher than the angels <— one of the reasons why Lucifer got upset…God made us to be higher than the highest angel, Lucifer. LAWL. [/quote]OK, Yer weirdin me out again boss. I’m gonna have to fly down there and take yer books away. Thomas has got you all goofy after I encouraged you to read him.
[quote]Mr. Chen wrote:
I originally cited Manhattan because he wrote about the wealth of the RCC. Personally, I’ll read anyone. I feel no pain if the writer is bigoted towards me or someone else. Of course the author’s point of view should be taken into account, but you can’t always gather facts from people with the same angle. [/quote]
Okay.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< You haven’t shown any evidence at all. All you have done so far is make appeals to people’s behaviors – I wonder if it the size would be big enough to be considered a statistical sample – which in no way represents what the actual church does or does not tolerate. You haven’t once pointed out what the church tolerates/teaches. >>>[/quote]Listen to me very closely. It makes no difference WHAT the Church(can’t forget that big C)teaches because nobody cares. They show up, dip the finger, sign of the cross, genuflect, “and also with you”, take communion and go on about their unchanged anti Christian pagan lives as if Jesus didn’t exist. They MIGHT be politically conservative, but NOT even that necessarily.
Why? Because their “Church” lives in prepetual rank disobedience to Paul’s apostolic command in 1st Corinthians 5. If that were carried out today there would be crickets chirping in America’s Parishes next Sunday.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< If we’re making appeals to people’s behaviors, America has the biggest population of Protestants and the highest concentration of Protestants outside of Germany. The current behavior in America can be nothing but explained by Protestant influence. Pornography, abortion, contraception, adultery, co-habitation, &c. &c. &c. I’d go so far as to say that the marginal catholics (I’d put the number a year ago at 2/3rds, now I have no clue as everyone and his mama is becoming quite orthodoxy since Obama decided to wage an impossible war against us) are an attempt to fit into protestant America. Want to talk about tolerance, look at the Anglican strains (even doctrinally): gay marriage, contraception, abortion, co-habitation, &c. are all fine. >>>[/quote]Ohhhhh my precious Brother Chris. You are beautiful man, but I’m still savin this for Sloth for the time being. [quote]Sloth wrote 02-10-2012, 01:08 AM:<<< Newsflash, there’s no more spiritually dead faith in this country than your beloved Calvinistic-Puritan-whatchamadoodle. Oh yes, Tirib, ‘your folks’ certainly were the face of early America, for the most part. But, look at their descendents now. Look at those folks’ country now. Eviscerated. Hollowed out. Their sons and daughters secularists. Where still religious, splintered into a multitude of squabbling denominations who’ve apparently arrived at different understandings, via sola scripture. >>>[/quote]We’ll get there too. He handed me a six foot solid oak club with which to bludgeon him with this post. It took him no time to figure it out. He put me on ignore when I challenged him on it. He is VERY sharp, but emotion and impulse got the best of him here.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< This whole coming out of the Church thing seems very flippant of you. >>>[/quote]Nothing could be further from the truth.[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Why? I just finished St. Louis de Montfort’s Way of Total Consecration to Jesus Through Mary. I bow to statues, I bow to the altar, I genuflect at the tabernacle, I pray to Mary, I pray to the Saints, I honor and venerate them. I call Jesus my King, the Pope his Servant. I go on pilgrimages to shrines and holy sites. I make shrines. I go to confession because I’m a terrible Catholic. I go to daily mass, and I started a Rosary guild for the ladies on my campus. I fast and practice hard works of mortification. I pray five times a day, and I am a prominent member and exec. member and a chair for the pro-life committee of the Catholic fraternity on campus, I am an exec member of the Catholic Pro-life movement on campus, and I am the president, have been vp and secretary, of the secular pro-life movement on my campus. I kneel and kiss my Bishops ring, and call him Your Excellency. I make a daily holy hour. I am an 8th grade Catechist and assistant wrestling coach at the Catholic HS. >>>[/quote]Ya know how I know the Lord is working in me where you’re concerned Christopher? Because I had a very very sarcastic and very VERY funny retort to this that would have hurt you deeply had I posted it. I won’t do it. KingKai would have hated himself, but he WOULD have been crackin up.[/quote]
Please, since you brought up let everyone know what you had in mind to say.
I would love to know why I left a Calvinist seminary (that I paid for), where I was on tract to become an assistant pastor at a well established church, and to leave behind all the people I knew and loved, even to be fired and my engagement to be broken off…so I could become Catholic.
Yes, please inform me, I’ll enjoy this. 
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Yes, my mind is quite feeble, man’s intellects are the most feeble of all intellects. I assume that I have the weakest of the weakest, probably is why they marked me as “special” all my academic career. >>>[/quote]Oh stop it with this already will ya?[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< But, nevertheless of all those things that are referred to as persons: God being first, then angels in vertical hierarchy, then last – man. We are the dumbest or lowest of spirits and the highest animals (actually we’re the only animal with an intellect, but hierarchy-wise we are the highest animal). Congratulations! Good thing for transfiguration, once we die our minds are given beatitude vision then we’ll be higher than the angels <— one of the reasons why Lucifer got upset…God made us to be higher than the highest angel, Lucifer. LAWL. [/quote]OK, Yer weirdin me out again boss. I’m gonna have to fly down there and take yer books away. Thomas has got you all goofy after I encouraged you to read him.
[/quote]
I read Aquinas when I was in seminary.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Please, since you brought up let everyone know what you had in mind to say. >>>[/quote]No. I decline. I wasn’t being coy or humorous at all. [quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< I would love to know why I left a Calvinist seminary (that I paid for), where I was on tract to become an assistant pastor at a well established church, and to leave behind all the people I knew and loved, even to be fired and my engagement to be broken off…so I could become Catholic. Yes, please inform me, I’ll enjoy this. :)[/quote]No again. Maybe I’ll pm you about it later. This is not a contest between you and I to me Chris.