[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Great, you think it’s sad. We must be doing something right.
Catholics are notorious for focusing on the misery of life ;)[/quote]
Could be worse. We could be homosexuals. 
Uh, uh, uh. I did an emoticon too!
[quote]orion wrote:
Again, catholic church trying to control the intimate details of your life, bad, government trying to control the intimate details of your life, good?[/quote]
I don’t advocate churches OR the government controlling the love lives of people. People should be free to love who they want, as long as they’re not hurting anyone else.
It wasn’t just the Medici popes; all of them were power hungry pontiffs who manipulated others for their own ends, despite claiming to be God’s representative on earth. Most churches are guilty of this to one degree or another, but the Catholic church deserves special mention.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Could be worse. We could be homosexuals. Uh, uh, uh. I did an emoticon too![/quote]
Per the topic of this thread, many of you are
[quote]forlife wrote:
orion wrote:
You are ignoring the incredible power of political and cultural brainwashing.
Yes, in theory classic liberalism leads to the greatest good of the greatest number, but how many are willing to step back and honestly ask the hard questions that could lead to such a conclusion?
It’s political/cultural brainwashing to allow people to marry and have children, when they are inclined to do so? Sorry, I just see no reason for religions to exclude their most dedicated members from one of the greatest joys of life. When you force people into choosing celibacy in order to follow their faith, it leads to repression and a range of psychological disorders. It flat out isn’t healthy. [/quote]
Err, no. The most dedicated members are celibate priests. The less dedicated can fill other roles.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Could be worse. We could be homosexuals. Uh, uh, uh. I did an emoticon too!
Per the topic of this thread, many of you are [/quote]
On the contrary, few are. Interesting that you gave up the homosexual molestor argument so quickly, though
[quote]forlife wrote:
orion wrote:
Again, catholic church trying to control the intimate details of your life, bad, government trying to control the intimate details of your life, good?
I don’t advocate churches OR the government controlling the love lives of people. People should be free to love who they want, as long as they’re not hurting anyone else.
[/quote]
Is owning a percentage of a man’s labor, control? The Catholic church has no IRS equivalent to force people into, or to stay in, the Priesthood. You’ve sunken your teeth into a bad argument.
[quote]forlife wrote:
orion wrote:
You are ignoring the incredible power of political and cultural brainwashing.
Yes, in theory classic liberalism leads to the greatest good of the greatest number, but how many are willing to step back and honestly ask the hard questions that could lead to such a conclusion?
It’s political/cultural brainwashing to allow people to marry and have children, when they are inclined to do so? Sorry, I just see no reason for religions to exclude their most dedicated members from one of the greatest joys of life. When you force people into choosing celibacy in order to follow their faith, it leads to repression and a range of psychological disorders. It flat out isn’t healthy. [/quote]
Clerical celibacy is a means of spiritual discipline - it is used to reaffirm a cleric’s commitment to the Church as his family in lieu of earthly relationships. It is a matter of choice that clerics struggle with, as it is a natural sacrifice.
There is more to life than unalloyed self-gratification or rank hedonism. Not everyone organizes their lives on the principles of self-indulgence as the ultimate end. That they choose not to is not “unhealthy” - it is an act of love for their Church and their “flock”.
Stop torturing us with your wretched ignorance of religion.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
forlife wrote:
orion wrote:
Again, catholic church trying to control the intimate details of your life, bad, government trying to control the intimate details of your life, good?
I don’t advocate churches OR the government controlling the love lives of people. People should be free to love who they want, as long as they’re not hurting anyone else.
Is owning a percentage of a man’s labor, control? The Catholic church has no IRS equivalent to force people into, or to stay in, the Priesthood. You’ve sunken your teeth into a bad argument. ;)[/quote]
It has, in Austria and Germany.
I kid you not.
It also goes deeper. If government can decide how much you owe it, it really owns you and lets you keep a rest. It is a form of servitude.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Is owning a percentage of a man’s labor, control? The Catholic church has no IRS equivalent to force people into, or to stay in, the Priesthood. You’ve sunken your teeth into a bad argument. ;)[/quote]
Yes, taxes are a form of control as well. I don’t mind requiring parishioners to pay a tithe, but I think it crosses the line when you force them into a celibate life in order to follow their faith.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Is owning a percentage of a man’s labor, control? The Catholic church has no IRS equivalent to force people into, or to stay in, the Priesthood. You’ve sunken your teeth into a bad argument.
Yes, taxes are a form of control as well. I don’t mind requiring parishioners to pay a tithe, but I think it crosses the line when you force them into a celibate life in order to follow their faith.[/quote]
Ah, you the love live is sacrosanct but your financial life is not?
How do we determine which areas I can control myself and which areas are controlled for me?
I might have other priorities than you?
[quote]orion wrote:
Ah, you the love live is sacrosanct but your financial life is not?
How do we determine which areas I can control myself and which areas are controlled for me?
I might have other priorities than you?
[/quote]
A bit of advice:
In the choice between love and money, go for love. If it’s the real thing, you’ll be happier and healthier in the long run 
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Is owning a percentage of a man’s labor, control? The Catholic church has no IRS equivalent to force people into, or to stay in, the Priesthood. You’ve sunken your teeth into a bad argument.
Yes, taxes are a form of control as well. I don’t mind requiring parishioners to pay a tithe, but I think it crosses the line when you force them into a celibate life in order to follow their faith.[/quote]
Methinks you don’t know what “force” is.
Edit: Oh, nearly forgot…
[quote]forlife wrote:
orion wrote:
Ah, you the love live is sacrosanct but your financial life is not?
How do we determine which areas I can control myself and which areas are controlled for me?
I might have other priorities than you?
A bit of advice:
In the choice between love and money, go for love. If it’s the real thing, you’ll be happier and healthier in the long run :)[/quote]
But maybe I want to work hard to care for the love of my life.
Plus, for some people rue love is just not in the cards, why take away what they can have?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
Methinks you don’t know what “force” is.[/quote]
Artificially limiting a person’s choices is a type of force.
[quote]orion wrote:
But maybe I want to work hard to care for the love of my life.
Plus, for some people rue love is just not in the cards, why take away what they can have?
[/quote]
Think of it in terms of Maslow’s hierarchy of needs. You need a certain amount of material wealth in order to meet your basic safety/nutritional requirements, but you don’t strictly need more than that. You also need to have love and belongingness in your life. People should be able to meet all of these needs on at least a basic level, and forcing someone to surrender one in order to meet another is neither compassionate nor “Christian”.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Artificially limiting a person’s choices is a type of force. [/quote]
Isn’t that what you are also advocating?
You mean by advocating taxation?
Are you arguing that all taxes should be abolished, or do you recognize that some degree of taxation (aka "force) is necessary?
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sloth wrote:
Methinks you don’t know what “force” is.
Artificially limiting a person’s choices is a type of force.[/quote]
Now you’re just messing around. You have to be. Choices don’t occur in a vacuum. Again, you might as well have said, “Why can’t an atheist be a Catholic priest?! The church’s choice of requirements must yield to their choices. Or, force has been used against the atheist! But, of course, force won’t have been used against others, including the Church, if they surrender their choice of requirements.” That’s just garbage, and I suspect you know it.
[quote]forlife wrote:
You mean by advocating taxation?
Are you arguing that all taxes should be abolished, or do you recognize that some degree of taxation (aka "force) is necessary?[/quote]
So, concrete force, owning perhaps months out of a year of another man’s labor(i.e. a piece of his life span), is good force. A completely voluntary association is bad “force”…
[quote]forlife wrote:
Obviously, pedophilia has significant potential to hurt children, and it would be irresponsible for them not to oppose it.[/quote]
Just to be clear, to which pedophilia would they be opposed? The clinical one involving pre-pubescent children or the popular/legal one involving minors without regard for puberty? I bet most of them go for the latter.