Catholic Church Scandal & PC Terms

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
222

[quote]forlife wrote:
Humans are real, gods are not.

Reason helps you know the difference. Abandon it at your peril.[/quote]

With all this “reason,” you do more bitching than almost anyone on this site. That to me seems perilous. I would respect someone more of their beliefs brought them comfort, even if those beliefs contradicted my own. To me, you come off miserable, maybe thats how I perceive your posts, but you seem lost. Your reason has yet to show you the way of finding yourself.

You keep searching for an answer to some question in your mind, and all your reason hasn’t provided it for you. The issue is whether or not you get an answer, but rather starting with the idea whether or not you are ready for an answer. Your mind is so closed off. What would you do if you were given an answer?

I am not here to convince you that God exists, but I do know that not believing in God isn’t working for you.

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It’s not about respecting or disrespecting people, it’s about what is actually real. Do you not care if your beliefs reflect REALITY? If it is a bunch of crap and you’re praying to the empty sky, isn’t that important to know?

Reason can’t provide all the answers of the universe, but it can keep you from pretending things are real when they aren’t. Believing in something because you want it to be true doesn’t actually make it true.

I spent many years (probably longer than you’ve been alive) with an “open mind” about god, and in fact believed very deeply that god had spoken to me. Now I know better.

I believe the universe is a beautiful and sometimes frightening mystery. I think love, honesty, and courage are important to a life worth living. It’s about finding happiness and peace, without hurting the happiness and peace of others. Doesn’t have to be much more complicated than that.

224

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
If you are trying to determine if I think Jose Smith is a false prophet, my answer is that I do not know. But I don’t care either, so I am not striving to seek his legitimacy.

Joseph Smith taught that the Catholic church was the “great and abominable church”. Still think God was telling me that he is a true prophet?

You’re burying your head in the sand.

While you might find it comforting to tell everyone to believe whatever they want to believe, it doesn’t address the logical fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE for contradictory doctrines to all be correct. Obviously, at least some people are dead WRONG, and possibly all of them are.

The point is that praying to your god and getting an “answer” tells you jack shit about what is actually real.[/quote]

I am sure the Catholic Church forgave him for his vitriol.

I have never read anything Jack Smith wrote. His existence is irrelevant to me, how can I say he was wrong if I never experienced any of his teachings? Most of the evangelical church’s preach negatively of the Catholic church.
Is it a doctrine of the Mormons to hate Catholic’s? If so, that teaching is wrong.

[Edit]
Yes, of two contradictory doctrines one must be wrong. But I don’t know Mormon doctrines so I don’t know if they are wrong.

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[quote]SteelyD wrote:
pat wrote:
If you are trying to determine if I think Jose Smith is a false prophet, my answer is that I do not know. But I don’t care either, so I am not striving to seek his legitimacy.

This.

For as much as Forlife doth protest, I’m starting to believe that he desperately would like to be a member of “The Church”.

A closet Catholic??? GASP!! ;)[/quote]

He is of course, welcome…

226

[quote]forlife wrote:

It’s a stupid rule, and thousands of people are going to die never having experienced the joys of family life as a result.[/quote]

I think the number of people that are going to die never having experienced the joys of family life number well into the millions and you toss their loss aside. How very moralistic.

227

[quote]pat wrote:
Yes, of two contradictory doctrines one must be wrong. But I don’t know Mormon doctrines so I don’t know if they are wrong.[/quote]

Here’s one example:

Mormons teach that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two entirely separate beings, united only in purpose, but having different physical bodies.

Catholics teach the concept of the Trinity, where God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are different aspects of the same spiritual being.

Logically, both cannot be right.

So who, if either, is right?

Mormons pray to god, and god tells them that he and Jesus are two separate physical beings.

Catholics pray to god, and god tells them that he and Jesus are different aspects of the same spiritual being.

We’re talking objective reality here. It is literally impossible for both to be right.

Clearly, praying to god and getting an answer from god do not mean anything about objective reality.

Conclusion?

People make up answers to their prayers on a subconscious level. They’re not actually communicating with a supernatural being, they are having a conversation with themselves.

228

[quote]forlife wrote:
It’s not about respecting or disrespecting people, it’s about what is actually real. Do you not care if your beliefs reflect REALITY? If it is a bunch of crap and you’re praying to the empty sky, isn’t that important to know?

Reason can’t provide all the answers of the universe, but it can keep you from pretending things are real when they aren’t. Believing in something because you want it to be true doesn’t actually make it true.

I spent many years (probably longer than you’ve been alive) with an “open mind” about god, and in fact believed very deeply that god had spoken to me. Now I know better.

I believe the universe is a beautiful and sometimes frightening mystery. I think love, honesty, and courage are important to a life worth living. It’s about finding happiness and peace, without hurting the happiness and peace of others. Doesn’t have to be much more complicated than that.[/quote]

You do not know what is fake and what isn’t. You are the glass-is-half-empty type of guy clearly. You see it as God may not exist, but I see it as no one knows for certain, but I still believe it’s possible.

You are right that reason can’t provide all the answers, but when reason runs out, you (Forlife) give up rather than consider something else. Sometimes prayer is all that is left for people. Sometimes a doctor will tell you that you are a dying man, would you be so quick to just say fuck it and quit? I believe that something greater than man can step in and help, but if you won’t even consider it it will never happen.

Whether God spoke to you or not is not as important as much as whether or not you were listening. Look at how pessimistic you are, do you think you are prepared for such a message? You have to be able to see something in your mind before you see something in front of you. You have to be able to entertain the idea that something can exist before you even try to prove it.

Your explanation of the universe is quaint, but you are still one of the grumpiest people I have seen on these boards. You may question the why would a priest enter into a relationship with God knowing he can never marry and enjoy it’s pleasure, yet fail to see that maybe his relationship to God is more pleasurable for him. The same could be said for nuns.

Your Earthly interpretation of happiness can be tiny compared to someone else’s Godly interpretation of happiness.

229

[quote]lucasa wrote:
I think the number of people that are going to die never having experienced the joys of family life number well into the millions and you toss their loss aside. How very moralistic.[/quote]

Hardly, I just think as many people as possible should be given the choice.

230

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
You do not know what is fake and what isn’t. You are the glass-is-half-empty type of guy clearly. You see it as God may not exist, but I see it as no one knows for certain, but I still believe it’s possible.

You are right that reason can’t provide all the answers, but when reason runs out, you (Forlife) give up rather than consider something else. Sometimes prayer is all that is left for people. Sometimes a doctor will tell you that you are a dying man, would you be so quick to just say fuck it and quit? I believe that something greater than man can step in and help, but if you won’t even consider it it will never happen.

Whether God spoke to you or not is not as important as much as whether or not you were listening. Look at how pessimistic you are, do you think you are prepared for such a message? You have to be able to see something in your mind before you see something in front of you. You have to be able to entertain the idea that something can exist before you even try to prove it.

Your explanation of the universe is quaint, but you are still one of the grumpiest people I have seen on these boards. You may question the why would a priest enter into a relationship with God knowing he can never marry and enjoy it’s pleasure, yet fail to see that maybe his relationship to God is more pleasurable for him. The same could be said for nuns.

Your Earthly interpretation of happiness can be tiny compared to someone else’s Godly interpretation of happiness. [/quote]

How is being honest about what we actually know and what we don’t “pessimistic”? Lol. The word is “realistic”, which is for people that care about the actual facts, rather than believing in fairy tales that they wish were true.

What you’re not getting is that for DECADES I lived my life just as you describe. I was a devout, faithful, believer in god. I attended church, served others in my community, read my scriptures, paid my tithing, taught sunday school lessons, and all the other things that believers like to do. I prayed every day, and believed god answered my prayers. I was as “open minded” as they come.

Maybe you’ll reach the point of being willing to courageously step back and ask the hard questions, and maybe you won’t. It’s certainly easier to continue along like a sheep, bleating about how much god loves you and how blessed you will be when you die. The majority of people do just that. They die with a smile on their face, and there’s something to be said for that.

The red pill isn’t for everyone.

231

[quote]pat wrote:
He is of course, welcome…[/quote]

As long as I pray hard enough to become straight? Or maybe I should become a Priest instead…

232

[quote]forlife wrote:
MaximusB wrote:
You do not know what is fake and what isn’t. You are the glass-is-half-empty type of guy clearly. You see it as God may not exist, but I see it as no one knows for certain, but I still believe it’s possible.

You are right that reason can’t provide all the answers, but when reason runs out, you (Forlife) give up rather than consider something else. Sometimes prayer is all that is left for people. Sometimes a doctor will tell you that you are a dying man, would you be so quick to just say fuck it and quit? I believe that something greater than man can step in and help, but if you won’t even consider it it will never happen.

Whether God spoke to you or not is not as important as much as whether or not you were listening. Look at how pessimistic you are, do you think you are prepared for such a message? You have to be able to see something in your mind before you see something in front of you. You have to be able to entertain the idea that something can exist before you even try to prove it.

Your explanation of the universe is quaint, but you are still one of the grumpiest people I have seen on these boards. You may question the why would a priest enter into a relationship with God knowing he can never marry and enjoy it’s pleasure, yet fail to see that maybe his relationship to God is more pleasurable for him. The same could be said for nuns.

Your Earthly interpretation of happiness can be tiny compared to someone else’s Godly interpretation of happiness.

How is being honest about what we actually know and what we don’t “pessimistic”? Lol. The word is “realistic”, which is for people that care about the actual facts, rather than believing in fairy tales that they wish were true.

What you’re not getting is that for DECADES I lived my life just as you describe. I was a devout, faithful, believer in god. I attended church, served others in my community, read my scriptures, paid my tithing, taught sunday school lessons, and all the other things that believers like to do. I prayed every day, and believed god answered my prayers. I was as “open minded” as they come.

Maybe you’ll reach the point of being willing to courageously step back and ask the hard questions, and maybe you won’t. It’s certainly easier to continue along like a sheep, bleating about how much god loves you and how blessed you will be when you die. The majority of people do just that. They die with a smile on their face, and there’s something to be said for that.

The red pill isn’t for everyone.[/quote]

God works on his timetable, not yours. I don’t need to ask the hard questions because I already know the answers. I have been through some shit, alot of shit, and rather than question why I went through it, I take joy in knowing the lesson to be taught.

233

You couldn’t learn from those experiences without believing in a supernatural being?

I understand where you’re coming from. I can’t tell you how many times I said exactly the same thing: “I know the gospel is true, and that god lives!”. And I deeply believed it at the time.

True happiness and peace are possible without believing in a god (which god is typically defined by whatever part of the world you live in). Church leaders will tell you otherwise, for obvious reasons. I know mine did.

Anyway, I’m not going to convince you of anything. If there’s one thing I’ve learned, it’s that the desire for knowing the truth must come from within. No amount of objective evidence will make any difference to people that aren’t willing to ask the hard questions. During my decades as a believer, nobody could convince me otherwise, because I KNEW that god had spoken to me and that was that.

234

[quote]forlife wrote:
pat wrote:
Yes, of two contradictory doctrines one must be wrong. But I don’t know Mormon doctrines so I don’t know if they are wrong.

Here’s one example:

Mormons teach that God the Father and Jesus Christ are two entirely separate beings, united only in purpose, but having different physical bodies.

Catholics teach the concept of the Trinity, where God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are different aspects of the same spiritual being.

Logically, both cannot be right.

So who, if either, is right?

Mormons pray to god, and god tells them that he and Jesus are two separate physical beings.

Catholics pray to god, and god tells them that he and Jesus are different aspects of the same spiritual being.

We’re talking objective reality here. It is literally impossible for both to be right.

Clearly, praying to god and getting an answer from god do not mean anything about objective reality.

Conclusion?

People make up answers to their prayers on a subconscious level. They’re not actually communicating with a supernatural being, they are having a conversation with themselves.[/quote]

I would call the Mormon one as you explained it, wrong based on logic alone. All that exists in the universe, be it physical matter or not, are united at some level in concept and form. Therefore, the God head, or the â??Fatherâ?? could not be entirely separate from itâ??s own manifestation as we are not totally separate entities from him. It all rolls up to God.

Now a little googleing revealed this:

So apparently mormons believe in an infinite number of gods all in control of there little sections of the universe or parallel universes or what not. Thatâ??s full on bullshit. There is no religion Christian or otherwise that teaches some cockamamie doctrine like that. Itâ??s completely illogical because it advocates God that is not the Creator, just the middle manager. Itâ??s weird, no doubt.

Now I get where you get your â??people make up their own godsâ?? crap. The concept of God you grew up with is vastly different then what I know and donâ??t know. It seems made up, there is no logical basis for it.

235

[quote]forlife wrote:

The red pill isn’t for everyone.[/quote]

Only a matter of time before the painfully cliched “Matrix” analogy came out analogizing believers as rubes under a the control of a controlling false reality but the non-believers as liberated, courageous beneficiaries of a Free and Glorious Truth.

We are achieving new levels of flakiness in PWI these days. The question is not what Forlife thinks is the Ultimate Truth - the question is what Forlife will think the Ultimate Truth is next, when he takes the next “blue pill”.

236

[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
forlife wrote:

The red pill isn’t for everyone.

Only a matter of time before the painfully cliched “Matrix” analogy came out analogizing believers as rubes under a the control of a controlling false reality but the non-believers as liberated, courageous beneficiaries of a Free and Glorious Truth.

We are achieving new levels of flakiness in PWI these days. The question is not what Forlife thinks is the Ultimate Truth - the question is what Forlife will think the Ultimate Truth is next, when he takes the next “blue pill”.[/quote]

I hated the Matrix…I thought it was the dumbest movie of all time. They kept spewing this “What if dog where called cat?” philosophy. I know a lot of people liked it, but I just couldn’t stand it…