[quote]John S. wrote:
JLu wrote:
A teenage girl is raped and impregnated, are you telling me she shouldn’t be allowed to have an abortion?
Why should the child be killed? 2 wrongs don’t make a right. [/quote]
But it’s right for this teenage girl to be forced into something (bearing and raising a child) she might not be ready for? And is most likely going to drastically alter her future from what she had planned?
[quote]JLu wrote:
Does a brain and therefore awareness exist? Yes → Human
No → Not human[/quote]
If it’s not human, what organism is it? A cat?
[quote]IgneLudo wrote:
Consciousness is the only thing that matters. DNA does not. Your skin cells have human DNA. You can grow skin cells in a petri dish forever.
Potential doesn’t matter either, otherwise your logic would dictate that you should be procreating as much as possible so that as many of your sperm/eggs develop into adults as possible. It does not matter than an embryo will develop into an adult human; it has not developed a consciousness yet (at least what we think of as a “human consciousness”). Unless you are vegetarian, don’t fucking talk about how the embryo might have some consciousness at X number of weeks into pregnancy. Like I said, it does not matter that it would develop the human consciousness in time. It hasn’t yet. It loses nothing. There is no more potential lost than is lost everytime a woman menstruates.
Anyone who thinks an embryo deserves equal status with an adult human is an open or secret believer in souls. Anyone who believes in souls doesn’t deserve an opinion on this subject. You certainly cannot feebly put forth bad scientific arguments with any sort of credibility.
[/quote]
Yes, Oh Mighty Lord of copying from Planned Parenthood.
JLu wrote:
A teenage girl is raped and impregnated, are you telling me she shouldn’t be allowed to have an abortion?[/quote]
Well, I feel bad and wish that no one had the burdened of being raped. I wish that justice would be more fair when it came to punishing those who rape another person. Not only does the person that rapes commit the crime of rape, he is also doing a few other injustices. He is taking away her innocence, he is forcing her to be a mother before she wishes to be, and other things that should not be forced on her.
However, what if that teenage girl had a boyfriend, and she was raped by another man. They asked for a test when they found out she was pregnant, and the lab results said she was pregnant with her boyfriends baby. They have the kid and 6 months later they find out that actually it was the rapist baby. So does this woman have the right to smother this child in it’s crib because its starting to look like it’s father the rapist?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
JLu wrote:
Does a brain and therefore awareness exist? Yes → Human
No → Not human
If it’s not human, what organism is it? A cat?[/quote]
Before it develops a brain I would call it a non-sentient, unconscious mass of cells much like your fingernail clippings or skin sheddings. If you guys consider the the moment of conception the point at which it becomes a human life how do you classify miscarriages? Negligence on the part of the mother? Manslaughter?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
JLu wrote:
A teenage girl is raped and impregnated, are you telling me she shouldn’t be allowed to have an abortion?
Well, I feel bad and wish that no one had the burdened of being raped. I wish that justice would be more fair when it came to punishing those who rape another person. Not only does the person that rapes commit the crime of rape, he is also doing a few other injustices. He is taking away her innocence, he is forcing her to be a mother before she wishes to be, and other things that should not be forced on her.
However, what if that teenage girl had a boyfriend, and she was raped by another man. They asked for a test when they found out she was pregnant, and the lab results said she was pregnant with her boyfriends baby. They have the kid and 6 months later they find out that actually it was the rapist baby. So does this woman have the right to smother this child in it’s crib because its starting to look like it’s father the rapist?[/quote]
No, regardless of any paternity tests, if the child is born, or even in the womb past a certain level of development (such as my previously suggested point at which a brain is formed for instance) then it should be considered a life and therefore murder to kill it. You still didn’t answer my question though, in that circumstance, assuming the teenage girl does not have a boyfriend, would you think abortion justified? If not please justify forcing a young woman into motherhood before she is ready.
[quote]JLu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
JLu wrote:
Does a brain and therefore awareness exist? Yes → Human
No → Not human
If it’s not human, what organism is it? A cat?
Before it develops a brain I would call it a non-sentient, unconscious mass of cells much like your fingernail clippings or skin sheddings. If you guys consider the the moment of conception the point at which it becomes a human life how do you classify miscarriages? Negligence on the part of the mother? Manslaughter?[/quote]
No, it’s the same organism all the way through. The same organism that was you in the womb, is the same organism I’m replying to. That’s not debateable.
[quote]JLu wrote:
You still didn’t answer my question though, in that circumstance, assuming the teenage girl does not have a boyfriend, would you think abortion justified? If not please justify forcing a young woman into motherhood before she is ready.[/quote]
No, it’s the killing of an innocent human.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
JLu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
JLu wrote:
Does a brain and therefore awareness exist? Yes → Human
No → Not human
If it’s not human, what organism is it? A cat?
Before it develops a brain I would call it a non-sentient, unconscious mass of cells much like your fingernail clippings or skin sheddings. If you guys consider the the moment of conception the point at which it becomes a human life how do you classify miscarriages? Negligence on the part of the mother? Manslaughter?
No, it’s the same organism all the way through. The same organism that was you in the womb, is the same organism I’m replying to. That’s not debateable. [/quote]
I suppose we’ll just have to disagree on this point then.
[quote]Sloth wrote:
JLu wrote:
You still didn’t answer my question though, in that circumstance, assuming the teenage girl does not have a boyfriend, would you think abortion justified? If not please justify forcing a young woman into motherhood before she is ready.
No, it’s the killing of an innocent human. [/quote]
You didn’t justify forcing a young woman into early motherhood/ruining her body/possibly ruining her future etc.
[quote]JLu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
JLu wrote:
You still didn’t answer my question though, in that circumstance, assuming the teenage girl does not have a boyfriend, would you think abortion justified? If not please justify forcing a young woman into motherhood before she is ready.
No, it’s the killing of an innocent human.
You didn’t justify forcing a young woman into early motherhood/ruining her body/possibly ruining her future etc.[/quote]
You’re correct. I justified saving a human life.
[quote]JLu wrote:
Brother Chris wrote:
JLu wrote:
A teenage girl is raped and impregnated, are you telling me she shouldn’t be allowed to have an abortion?
Well, I feel bad and wish that no one had the burdened of being raped. I wish that justice would be more fair when it came to punishing those who rape another person. Not only does the person that rapes commit the crime of rape, he is also doing a few other injustices. He is taking away her innocence, he is forcing her to be a mother before she wishes to be, and other things that should not be forced on her.
However, what if that teenage girl had a boyfriend, and she was raped by another man. They asked for a test when they found out she was pregnant, and the lab results said she was pregnant with her boyfriends baby. They have the kid and 6 months later they find out that actually it was the rapist baby. So does this woman have the right to smother this child in it’s crib because its starting to look like it’s father the rapist?
No, regardless of any paternity tests, if the child is born, or even in the womb past a certain level of development (such as my previously suggested point at which a brain is formed for instance) then it should be considered a life and therefore murder to kill it. You still didn’t answer my question though, in that circumstance, assuming the teenage girl does not have a boyfriend, would you think abortion justified? If not please justify forcing a young woman into motherhood before she is ready.[/quote]
No, I just did, but you ignored it. I turn the question on you. Tell me why you think that because this women was forced to conceive she should be able to kill another human?
[quote]JLu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
JLu wrote:
You still didn’t answer my question though, in that circumstance, assuming the teenage girl does not have a boyfriend, would you think abortion justified? If not please justify forcing a young woman into motherhood before she is ready.
No, it’s the killing of an innocent human.
You didn’t justify forcing a young woman into early motherhood/ruining her body/possibly ruining her future etc.[/quote]
No one ever did, that is why rapist should be punished. We did no such act, unless we are the rapist, to force her into early motherhood.
[quote]JLu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
JLu wrote:
Sloth wrote:
JLu wrote:
Does a brain and therefore awareness exist? Yes → Human
No → Not human
If it’s not human, what organism is it? A cat?
Before it develops a brain I would call it a non-sentient, unconscious mass of cells much like your fingernail clippings or skin sheddings. If you guys consider the the moment of conception the point at which it becomes a human life how do you classify miscarriages? Negligence on the part of the mother? Manslaughter? [/quote]
It’s an unfortunate incident, but no one is to blame. If you are really trying to impose that because that Catholic Church’s view of abortion, abortion is equivalent to murder, and because of that we would somehow view a miscarriage equivalent to negligence or manslaughter. Then you sir are more illogical than I thought.
No, it’s the same organism all the way through. The same organism that was you in the womb, is the same organism I’m replying to. That’s not debateable.
I suppose we’ll just have to disagree on this point then.[/quote]
= illogical.
The “mass of cells” called an organism is a human. Just like you are a mass of cells, and humans are always a mass of cells in any stage of development, location, size, or dependency. Comparing an embryo (or any stage of development) to a fingernail because they are both a mass of cells is illogical. They are two different things, if you kill a fingernail the human still lives, you kill a human, the human and the fingernail dies.
[quote]JLu wrote:
John S. wrote:
JLu wrote:
A teenage girl is raped and impregnated, are you telling me she shouldn’t be allowed to have an abortion?
Why should the child be killed? 2 wrongs don’t make a right.
But it’s right for this teenage girl to be forced into something (bearing and raising a child) she might not be ready for? And is most likely going to drastically alter her future from what she had planned?[/quote]
Well, it may seem harsh but life is not fair. But I will say this, I would have no problem donating to a charity that helps rape survivors raise a child. And if she does not want the child there is always adoption.
So would my esteemed religious colleagues then please enlighten me as to what the status is of an IVF fertilized egg in their view?Are you against IVF on principle?
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
IgneLudo wrote:
Consciousness is the only thing that matters. DNA does not. Your skin cells have human DNA. You can grow skin cells in a petri dish forever.
Potential doesn’t matter either, otherwise your logic would dictate that you should be procreating as much as possible so that as many of your sperm/eggs develop into adults as possible. It does not matter than an embryo will develop into an adult human; it has not developed a consciousness yet (at least what we think of as a “human consciousness”). Unless you are vegetarian, don’t fucking talk about how the embryo might have some consciousness at X number of weeks into pregnancy. Like I said, it does not matter that it would develop the human consciousness in time. It hasn’t yet. It loses nothing. There is no more potential lost than is lost everytime a woman menstruates.
Anyone who thinks an embryo deserves equal status with an adult human is an open or secret believer in souls. Anyone who believes in souls doesn’t deserve an opinion on this subject. You certainly cannot feebly put forth bad scientific arguments with any sort of credibility.
Yes, Oh Mighty Lord of copying from Planned Parenthood.[/quote]
Yes, Oh Mighty Lord of copying from ignorant Pro-Lifers.
Rofl dude, what? I’ve never read any Planned Parenthood materials and, quite frankly, I don’t think they are as clear as I am being.
Your literacy is pretty questionable.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
The “mass of cells” called an organism is a human. Just like you are a mass of cells, and humans are always a mass of cells in any stage of development, location, size, or dependency. Comparing an embryo (or any stage of development) to a fingernail because they are both a mass of cells is illogical. They are two different things, if you kill a fingernail the human still lives, you kill a human, the human and the fingernail dies.[/quote]
Do you even understand science? Was the last biology class you took in 9th grade? You aren’t arguing from science here. You are arguing that somehow you know that an embryo has a soul and things with souls are human. If you make arguments about souls, you can go talk with the guy who believes in unicorns and angels, not to people who actually make decisions in the real world.
The only thing that matters is consciousness and embryos don’t have consciousness. I would rather kill a hundred embryos than one chimpanzee.
[quote]Makavali wrote:
Yes, let’s tell women what to do with their body parts. And two consenting adults getting married is just a perversion.[/quote]
Protesting tax money going to a kill a human is hardly telling people what to do with their bodies…If people want to be piece of shit irresponsible murdering assholes, at least let them do it on their own dime.
If you really like abortion and think it’s a hoot, then I am sure NARAL, Planned Parenthood, or your local baby killing center will be more than happy to take your money, so give till it hurts.
[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
tme wrote:
Cool. So this means I can withhold my taxes to protest having them dumped into a couple of worthless holes in Middle East deserts?
I think it’s time for the IRS to re-evaluate the tax exempt status of some of these so called religious organizations.
Exactly.
Hell, I don’t want to pay taxes at all if a Republican wins the election. That’s cool, right? I’m protesting. It’s legal.[/quote]
I say go for it. Let us know how that turn out for you…