Here is a Canon Lawyer commenting on a Canon Lawyer’s (not to mention an Archbishop) document on marriage and Canon 916. As Mr. Peters points out, “Myers is reminding Catholics that responsibility for worthy participation in the holy Communion begins with individual Catholics.”
I am not talking about barring from communion and neither is Paul. Not primarily anyway. I am slammed for days now with work Chris. I was there earlier. I will look at your links and more carefully read your posts. You have my word. Here’s 1 cor 5 in a nutshell. “Got somebody in known unrepentant sin? You are hereby commanded to judge them and put them physically out of your fellowship lest their corruption influence the rest of the body and world get the idea that God’s people are no different than they are.” The world HAS that idea btw, because as we see right here in these forums. Most people claiming to be Christians are pretty much no different than anybody else except they make some shallow claim that has pretty much no effect on any part of their life they decide it shouldn’t.
If God were to push a button (like some real persecution for instance?) and expose who belonged to Him and who is full of meaningless lip service if even that? We’d here crickets chirpin in the majority of “churches” in the western world. Catholic or protestant. Christians are aliens here. The bible says so. Citizens of another world having been born into the Kingdom of the most high God and His Christ. We are spiritually and morally, in word, in deed, in THOUGHT, even ontologically, different than our unregenerate brethren in Adam. That’s the fruit of the gospel Chris. Not the adoption of some principles that if kept well enough, along with a bunch of ritual buy us a place in heaven.
I am LITERALLY not the man I was before I knew Him because He is making me like Him. Where once I viewed other people as marks for my own use as I saw fit, today they are precious to me. I yearn for them to have what I have. I love them. Especially the most vitriolic hateful God deny pagans who call me names all the time. I’ll be back later.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
If God were to push a button (like some real persecution for instance?) and expose who belonged to Him and who is full of meaningless lip service if even that? We’d here crickets chirpin in the majority of “churches” in the western world. Catholic or protestant. Christians are aliens here. The bible says so. Citizens of another world having been born into the Kingdom of the most high God and His Christ. We are spiritually and morally, in word, in deed, in THOUGHT, even ontologically, different than our unregenerate brethren in Adam. That’s the fruit of the gospel Chris. Not the adoption of some principles that if kept well enough, along with a bunch of ritual buy us a place in heaven.
[/quote]
That I could get behind.
The very, very few Christians I actually met were cool.
The cherry picking cowards and hypocrites?
Not so much.
[quote]orion wrote:<<< That I could get behind.
The very, very few Christians I actually met were cool.
The cherry picking cowards and hypocrites?
Not so much. [/quote]I don’t think I understand, but am genuinely curious what you mean by this.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< 95% of Catholics I’ve ever met wouldn’t be mistaken for Christians by anybody.[/quote]Welcome to America. It’s a phenomena of civilized Western Culture and anonymity.[/quote]But not a phenomena of a faithful church living in the commands of the Lord and certainly NOT indicative of the presence of the mystical body of Christ. God’s power ends at the North American borders?
I’ll give you sincere credit for two things here Chris. First and definitely foremost for your honesty in copping to the clearly abhorrent state of the Catholic church at least on this continent. You posted an article a long while back by a guy who I thought had some very solid insight into the state of your church. Except when his solution centered on the eucharist which is the problem Chris, not the solution. Is it possible I can be honest without incurring your wrath?
[quote]Christopher said:<<< Explain to me how a priest (or, an extra-ordinary minister giving communion) who runs a parish with 500+, 1000+, 2000+, or 5000+ families (who have an average of 2-3 people in each family) in it is supposed to know that some man in the back pew of the Church he sees once a week on Sunday for an hour is living in sin (versus, having sinned and being contrite for his sins and has gone to confession)? If it’s not manifest first off, the priest won’t know, which is mostly the case. >>>[/quote]The Holy Spirit is amazing. Trust me. Faithful congregations under faithful leadership, wherein dwells the Holy Spirit WILL make an ongoing work of purifying Christ’s precious body. IF they actually believed anything the church teaches AND were empowered by the Spirit of the Lord to be obedient. Since neither of these things is true we have hundreds of millions of Catholics who are NOT Christians. Doctrine makes the difference here Chris. Your church shows her soft vulnerable underbelly right here Brother Chris. We may actually get somewhere here since it does not appear that you are going to defend the Catholic view of Romans 2 here.
That will have to be all for tonight for now. I’m always very blessed to talk to you Chris. Always. Oops. Oh yeah, number two. For finding an actual example of an excommunication in America. That’s what were talkin about ya know. Paul says to Put the person physically away from the body and not even to eat with them. Is that something to be done with relish and joy? Of course not, but if it isn’t enforced then you end up with what we have now. Which is churches claiming to be Christian full of heresy and immorality. Two sides of the same coin.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:<<< That I could get behind.
The very, very few Christians I actually met were cool.
The cherry picking cowards and hypocrites?
Not so much. [/quote]I don’t think I understand, but am genuinely curious what you mean by this.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< 95% of Catholics I’ve ever met wouldn’t be mistaken for Christians by anybody.[/quote]Welcome to America. It’s a phenomena of civilized Western Culture and anonymity.[/quote]But not a phenomena of a faithful church living in the commands of the Lord and certainly NOT indicative of the presence of the mystical body of Christ. God’s power ends at the North American borders?
I’ll give you sincere credit for two things here Chris. First and definitely foremost for your honesty in copping to the clearly abhorrent state of the Catholic church at least on this continent. You posted an article a long while back by a guy who I thought had some very solid insight into the state of your church. Except when his solution centered on the eucharist which is the problem Chris, not the solution. Is it possible I can be honest without incurring your wrath?
[quote]Christopher said:<<< Explain to me how a priest (or, an extra-ordinary minister giving communion) who runs a parish with 500+, 1000+, 2000+, or 5000+ families (who have an average of 2-3 people in each family) in it is supposed to know that some man in the back pew of the Church he sees once a week on Sunday for an hour is living in sin (versus, having sinned and being contrite for his sins and has gone to confession)? If it’s not manifest first off, the priest won’t know, which is mostly the case. >>>[/quote]The Holy Spirit is amazing. Trust me. Faithful congregations under faithful leadership, wherein dwells the Holy Spirit WILL make an ongoing work of purifying Christ’s precious body. IF they actually believed anything the church teaches AND were empowered by the Spirit of the Lord to be obedient. Since neither of these things is true we have hundreds of millions of Catholics who are NOT Christians. Doctrine makes the difference here Chris. Your church shows her soft vulnerable underbelly right here Brother Chris. We may actually get somewhere here since it does not appear that you are going to defend the Catholic view of Romans 2 here.
That will have to be all for tonight for now. I’m always very blessed to talk to you Chris. Always. Oops. Oh yeah, number two. For finding an actual example of an excommunication in America. That’s what were talkin about ya know. Paul says to Put the person physically away from the body and not even to eat with them. Is that something to be done with relish and joy? Of course not, but if it isn’t enforced then you end up with what we have now. Which is churches claiming to be Christian full of heresy and immorality. Two sides of the same coin.
[/quote]
Grrr… I just typed a wall of text and then hit the X button on the tab accidentally.
I’ll try and be concise. Three questions:
-
What, specifically are the differences you see between the members of your congregation and Catholics at large? If you could provide some concrete points of comparison I’d appreciate it.
-
How many Catholics, real, professing, proud, making it to Mass every Sunday-type Catholics, do you really know? Honestly. How much contact do you really have with any given Catholic parish? I’m not talking about the internet. I’m talking about real, face to face contact. People you could actually refer to.
-
How can you know that what you see in the members of your own congregation is not merely a projection of your own zeal and love for Jesus? How can you really know their hearts, what happens behind the doors of their own homes?
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:<<< That I could get behind.
The very, very few Christians I actually met were cool.
The cherry picking cowards and hypocrites?
Not so much. [/quote]I don’t think I understand, but am genuinely curious what you mean by this.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:[quote]Tiribulus wrote:<<< 95% of Catholics I’ve ever met wouldn’t be mistaken for Christians by anybody.[/quote]Welcome to America. It’s a phenomena of civilized Western Culture and anonymity.[/quote]But not a phenomena of a faithful church living in the commands of the Lord and certainly NOT indicative of the presence of the mystical body of Christ. God’s power ends at the North American borders?
I’ll give you sincere credit for two things here Chris. First and definitely foremost for your honesty in copping to the clearly abhorrent state of the Catholic church at least on this continent. You posted an article a long while back by a guy who I thought had some very solid insight into the state of your church. Except when his solution centered on the eucharist which is the problem Chris, not the solution. Is it possible I can be honest without incurring your wrath?[/quote]
How is Jesus being truly present in the Eucharist the problem? You must not think Jesus is the answer.
Did you just say that Jesus isn’t pure? Wow.
Amazing what comes out of your computer. Condemnation of those you do not know, I believe this is consider rash judgement, and is a mortal sin (in the case of you have knowledge and consent). I’d recommend now examining your conscience and if you’re guilty of mortal sin going to confession, but you know you’re disobedient to Jesus and ignore his commandments to confess your sins to one another and allow a priest to absolve you in the person of Christ as St. Paul tells us.
Now you’re talking out of the side of your neck. Please tell me why I’m not going to defend the Catholic view of Romans 2. You yourself can’t even explain it, though I have no idea why you cannot. You say it’s easy, St. Peter says it hard…who shall I agree with on this issue.
[quote]That will have to be all for tonight for now. I’m always very blessed to talk to you Chris. Always. Oops. Oh yeah, number two. For finding an actual example of an excommunication in America. That’s what were talkin about ya know. Paul says to Put the person physically away from the body and not even to eat with them. Is that something to be done with relish and joy? Of course not, but if it isn’t enforced then you end up with what we have now. Which is churches claiming to be Christian full of heresy and immorality. Two sides of the same coin.
[/quote]
Says the man in heresy and schism with Jesus’ Church.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:<<< That I could get behind.
The very, very few Christians I actually met were cool.
The cherry picking cowards and hypocrites?
Not so much.
[/quote]I don’t think I understand, but am genuinely curious what you mean by this.
[/quote]
If you look at Jesus on the cross and think Romans are pussies because they did not waterboard him first, you are not a Christian.
If your idea of turning the other cheek is a drone strike, you are not a Christian.
Care more about your McMansion, BMW or how big your tv is then about the sick, poor or infirm?
Probably not a Christian.
If you care more about speck in your brothers eye than the plank in your own, also not a Christian.
Jesus has many fans, but very few followers.
[quote]orion wrote:
Jesus has many fans, but very few followers. [/quote]
Never heard it put this way.
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< Grrr… I just typed a wall of text and then hit the X button on the tab accidentally. >>>[/quote]Sorry man. I know how that is =[ [quote]Cortes wrote:<<< 1. What, specifically are the differences you see between the members of your congregation and Catholics at large? If you could provide some concrete points of comparison I’d appreciate it. >>>[/quote]It’s not about MY church though. There are many faithful churches left, even in this country. I have NO belief that MY church is unique and that we are the only ones preaching the word and practicing the faith. Every faithful local body is a specimen of the visible church in which dwells both true and false disciples including mine. The true ones ARE the invisible church, the elect, the body of Christ. The rest are those to whom the Lord will say depart from me, I never knew you. Despite your apparent commitment to me. Those are tares which cannot be discerned by any but God alone. We’re not talking about those. We’re talking about people in flagrant heresy and sin.
I was raised Catholic. I was baptized, took first communion and was confirmed (I think I finished confirmation) in St. Robert Bellermaine parish in Redford Township Michigan. I went to mass, did advent, lent and every holy day of obligation along with Catechism class growing up and one year of Parochial school. (I did love Sister Olivet). My entire family on my mother’s side were Catholics. I mean 6 foot shrine fulla statues and icons in the backyard and stuff ALL over the house Catholic.
I never actually knew even ONE person in my church except to see their face at mass. They could have been axe murderers on weekends for all I knew. I did see them sprint out the door after mass so they could smoke and talk trash. We walked by them on the way to the car. Were it not for my grandmother on my father’s side who was a Methodist, I would have never known what a Christian even was. I had no idea we were supposed to be different from the lost world. None.
In my church there are several former “real, professing, proud, making it to Mass every Sunday-type Catholics” that I really know personally as well. One went K-12 Catholic school and was gonna be a nun. To a man, the bible is what led them out. “There is NO way I can believe this AND all this other stuff they’re tellin me. Just no way.” I also have a bunch of customers who are totally committed, “my house is a monument to Rome” Catholics. People I’ve spent hours with in their own home. Also and once again. This http://forums.catholic.com/ the largest and thoroughly representative site on the web is a REAL education in tragedy. YES, that counts. Hundreds of thousands of Catholics there and carnality and division galore. I mean division division division division. Every modernist liberal abomination on full color display. Think I’m kiddin? Take a gander. Orthodox protestantism is full glorious unity compared to the fiasco I finally HAD TO get away from there. I have several hundred posts. And not as a basher either though I made no secret of my views. All sarcasm aside. I COULD NOT take it. I was literally losing sleep. People pouring their hearts out in pain and turmoil only to be given the most satanic ineffectual conflicting psychobabbling advice I ever heard of. I still pray for Tucdoc, but I could not stay there any more.
In the congregation I worship in now, there are non serious, on the bandwagon, folks who you can tell aren’t too committed to the Lord. Every church has them and it will always be that way. Jesus said so. What we don’t have are people living in open denial of mortally essential doctrine or known peace with clear unrepentant sin. Everybody (most everybody) knows other people well and most know LOTS of other people well. Even with 1500 members sin does not forever remain hidden where that is the case. Most of the time we don’t have to excommunicate somebody because they leave on their own. We practice and maintain biblical holiness. Those not so interested do not often stick around. Men constantly sharpen men and women the women. Husbands and wives each other.
When it becomes known to somebody that somebody else is living in rebellion they go to them and attempt to win their repentance. If not then witnesses are taken. If not still, it is made known to the headship and they hear the case. If it is seen to be as the brethren have alleged then the person or persons are lovingly and sorrowfully shunned until such time as true fruits of biblical repentance are forthcoming. This process is just as but no more public than the sin. If it is a pastor, like has been the case since I’ve been there, then the excommunication is well known. This man was over our education ministry and fell into heretical beliefs. We had a deacon and a woman in the congregation who were in fornication. They weren’t wiling to stop and so had to be put out. If a lay person then discretion is used depending on the case. There is no loud humiliating self righteous celebration. That is the biblical teaching. Open sin and or heresy CANNOT be tolerated among the people of God. This didn’t used to have to be explained, at least among protestants.
If somebody is struggling with a stronghold of sin or an orthodox belief we will fight with and for them until the end of time. Nobody is turned away who WANTS to please the Lord.
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< 2. How many Catholics, real, professing, proud, making it to Mass every Sunday-type Catholics, do you really know? Honestly. How much contact do you really have with any given Catholic parish? I’m not talking about the internet. I’m talking about real, face to face contact. People you could actually refer to. >>>[/quote] Please see above, but the internet counts. Written speech is speech indeed and Jesus tells me “out of the abundance of the hear the mouth speaks”. When I see wide open rank worldly carnality and modernist liberalism pouring out of people loudly proclaiming their Catholicism and nobody else also proclaiming theirs uttering so much as a peep of disassociation or rebuke it speaks volumes to this issue. I don’t like it, but I have no problem taking on these flaming heretical reprobates running around here trying to tie the spotless Lamb of God to their filth and false doctrine. I am COMMANDED to do that. Every true Christian is.
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<<3. How can you know that what you see in the members of your own congregation is not merely a projection of your own zeal and love for Jesus? How can you really know their hearts, what happens behind the doors of their own homes? [/quote] We’re in each others homes all the time. We live, eat, pray, praise, play, work and die together. It really IS family. Please hear me my friend. Don’t you see how foreign that is to you? Literally 90% of the time I spend with my brothers and sisters is not during church. I KNOW them. They KNOW me. I couldn’t hide sin or heresy from them and neither could they from me. That’s only weird if you don’t take the new testament seriously which is the point. That’s not creepy or fanatical. That’s just the church being well… the church.
This is my pastor’s sermon from 2 weeks ago. He goes hardest on his own flock. http://gregnmary.gotdns.com/audio/fresh.mp3
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:<<< That I could get behind.
The very, very few Christians I actually met were cool.
The cherry picking cowards and hypocrites?
Not so much.
[/quote]I don’t think I understand, but am genuinely curious what you mean by this.
[/quote]If you look at Jesus on the cross and think Romans are pussies because they did not waterboard him first, you are not a Christian.
If your idea of turning the other cheek is a drone strike, you are not a Christian.
Care more about your McMansion, BMW or how big your tv is then about the sick, poor or infirm?
Probably not a Christian.
If you care more about speck in your brothers eye than the plank in your own, also not a Christian.
Jesus has many fans, but very few followers. [/quote]I must be honest. I’m disappointed by most of this which misses the point entirely, but you are not a believer so the disappointment is my problem. I have actually heard the last saying about fans and followers which is very true. People without any idea of who or what Jesus is fall quite regularly into the former. Churches are full of them. We have them here.
@ Christopher:
You are simply declaring your Catholicism Chris. That whole last post is nothing more than a series of personally comforting affirmations. They can be summed by saying “Catholicism is true”.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< Did you just say that Jesus isn’t pure? Wow. >>>[/quote]Of course I’m not saying that Chris and you know full well that’s not what I’m saying. Though this particular phrasing of my intent did leave me vulnerable so I give ya credit for taking advantage.
I have not yet been able to read your links. I will though.
Oops. I’ll use this space later maybe
Thanks for the time and thought it must have taken to type up that very thorough reply.
And now you’ll have to forgive me when I reply that this is exactly what I suspected.
First: Everything you’ve said about the company you keep, every last letter of it, could be honestly and accurately stated by any number of Catholics I personally know as well. I’m talking about Catholic friends of mine on both sides of the Pacific, of a number of races and nationalities, and I am including myself in this number.
To be more direct: I’m telling you you are wrong, Tirib. You are grossly mischaracterizing the majority of Catholics that I know, and you are creating a political cartoon of our parishioners and their after-church behavior.
Second: This is beside the point.
I am very sorry you were not blessed with positive examples from the Catholic laity in your experience with them, but I fail to see how their behavior, after church, at home, behind closed doors, on the internet or in their hearts, has ANYTHING at all to do with the sanctity or not of the Church herself.
Indeed, you yourself state:
Not sure how you can condemn the Catholic Church herself for what you have admitted is present in your own congregations.
I was going to go through and pick your post apart piece by piece, but I’ll leave most of it for now, and limit myself to the following summary response.
Here are my three questions, once again, each followed by what, from among all those words, I gathered to be your answers. Please let me know where my errors in understanding lie:
1. What, specifically are the differences you see between the members of your congregation and Catholics at large?
A: The Catholics you have personally known have not met your standards for Christian behavior. And the people you hang out with do. But you have not actually personally known that many Catholics, and it is only natural that you would hang out with people of like minds. We all do.
2. How many Catholics, real, professing, proud, making it to Mass every Sunday-type Catholics, do you really know?
Almost none, aside from on the internet. You professedly did not know even one from your early parish, and the ones you later came to know were already “not” Catholics at that point, and came to their ideas about the Church apparently in the same manner as you did.
You also chide the internet Catholics for not e-excommunicating their brethren (so to speak), which is a rather arbitrary demand in a rather particular locale that is decidedly not an official arm of the Catholic Church.
3. How can you know that what you see in the members of your own congregation is not merely a projection of your own zeal and love for Jesus? How can you really know their hearts, what happens behind the doors of their own homes?
You know them well, which I agree is a great way to come to that conclusion. Unfortunately, most of the rest of your post makes it blindingly clear that you DO NOT, indeed, know almost any Catholics to anywhere near the same degree of intimacy.
And before you point out that you grew up Catholic again, I’ll point out that you’ve stated numerous times that you were not exactly the best judge of anything at that period in your life. And since your conversion, I’ll just bet that giving the Catholic Church and her members one more chance was not exactly one of your top priorities.
One final quote and response:
In all my times at Church, I have never once witnessed a single person hurry out of Mass to “talk trash.” That’s the absolute truth. Indeed, there seems to be only one person “talking trash” about vast swaths of people he professedly doesn’t even know. And he ain’t even Catholic.
What % of Catholics are pro choice and or pro gay marriage? Watch how many vote for Obama… again. How does a murderous whore with a lifelong campaign of overtly demonic ant-Christian policy like Ted Kennedy get a Catholic funeral that is then transformed into a propaganda tool for Obamacare? I know dozens of Catholics personally right now. No matter what you would like to believe, internet evidence IS valid. Those forums are the last lesson anybody will ever need. Thousands and thousands and thousands gathered in one place for all to see. You couldn’t distill a consistent Catholic voice on even one particle of faith or practice from those forums. Why not? In fact I’m gonna concentrate on that because you are kidding yourself if you actually think that places like those forums and other internet associations are not truly indicative. The sample rate is exponentially higher, even allowing for some deception which I think is much rarer than some are going to allege. Wanna have a poll to see how many people here have experiences with Catholics that lead them to believe that much more than lip service is actually paid by the ones they know?
I stand by my assertions. Outside of a piece of bread and a meaningless superstitious ceremony on Sunday morning, the vast majority of Catholics I have ever known of know NOTHING of a living life transforming relatio0nship with the risen Christ. Even Chris was not gonna try n defend the state of Catholic pews. And you missed the point. The reason I didn’t know anybody from my Parish is because nobody cared to know any of the other alleged members of Christ’s body because they had no idea what that is and no interest in finding out. It was a RITUAL. Still is for most I’ve ever seen and the ones for whom it’s more may be even worse. You have become one of my best friends here and I have sincere affection for you. You know I mean that. Not only will that not stop me, but it is for that reason that I will continue to tell you that your church is a lie. It is everything Jesus came to abolish in his once for all fulfillment of all that had gone before.
All this does not also change the fact that THEOLOGY is the defining criteria. The deadness of the world’s Catholics is simply the empirical manifestation of a dead pagan sacerdotal theology. The ones who are alive, and there are some. I’ve said so repeatedly. Are so in spite and certainly not because of their communion with that Church. I have a feeling this will go on. I have chest tri’s and shoulders now though. I do so pray that you can receive what I’m saying in the spirit in which I am sending it.
Say one thing about HH, he knows his audience (or, marks?). Hook, line, and sinker.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I know dozens of Catholics personally right now.[/quote]
I know around 400 Catholics personally (between the ages of 21 to 50’s), that make up the non-profit I work for (I know hundred’s more that have moved on and still do the following). Every single one of them goes to Mass everyday, has a daily Holy Hour in front of the Blessed Sacrament, many pray the Rosary everyday, all pray unceasingly, go to Sunday Mass weekly, frequents the sacraments often including the Sacrament of Penance, has between two to a dozen disciples (around a 1000 disciples in total across college campuses) and a handful of bible studies bringing in new converts by the day (reaching shortly to 10,000 attendees in just 3 months time). Their disciples are learning to do what they are doing.
This doesn’t include the 140-150 children that are growing up in faithful Catholic homes their parents being missionaries, not including 10’s of thousands of people who were affected by the 1000’s of people working with me who have gone on to become contributing members of society outside of being a missionary, who still live a missionary life of sowing broadly, and repeating responsiveness within bible studies, discipleship, and the New Evangelism. And, that’s just one group I am intimately familiar with and not including groups like the Brothers of St. John who do the same work except they are religious.
Yes, it is. Just look at the above.
That there is an internal war in the Catholic Church, that there are those people who say the Creed on Sunday and ignore the Pope on Monday, with a whole entire world that isn’t made up of 1st world Western Civilization wondering what is going on (mostly because they are threatening their lives in order to follow St. Peter), plus a rather large growing group of Catholics in Western World wondering what they are doing, as well, myself included.
You’ll call this sentimentalism again Chris, but I really do love you man. That said? I couldn’t possibly have made my point any better than you have. I am not being sarcastic. Pure ritualistic works religion. None of that proves a thing Chris. Not biblically speaking. Remember when were talking over Facebook messenger and you finally convinced me to tell you why you were attracted to Catholicism? Remember? You’re proving it right now. I wish we could meet in person. Maybe one day. You’d know then that I don’t say any of these things to be hurtful and insulting to you. Honest I don’t.
Could you elaborate on this: [quote]“with a whole entire world that isn’t made up of 1st world Western Civilization wondering what is going on (mostly because they are threatening their lives in order to follow St. Peter), plus a rather large growing group of Catholics in Western World wondering what they are doing, as well, myself included.”[/quote] No offense, but it appears to me to a bit awkwardly constructed and I don’t want to misunderstand.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Pure ritualistic works religion.[/quote]
Maybe I’m not understanding, but please tell me what on earth you’re talking about and if you’re trying to say this is a bad thing. Because you seem to be making assumptions that I’m not following or are just outright false.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Could you elaborate on this: [quote]“with a whole entire world that isn’t made up of 1st world Western Civilization wondering what is going on (mostly because they are threatening their lives in order to follow St. Peter), plus a rather large growing group of Catholics in Western World wondering what they are doing, as well, myself included.”[/quote] No offense, but it appears to me to a bit awkwardly constructed and I don’t want to misunderstand. [/quote]
Yes, there are Catholics such as those fleeing Egypt who are being martyred, they threaten their life by listening to the Pope and doing what he says. I got a report from my brother that his parents were martyred this past week along with an assortment of family members and friends.
Then there are me and my friends (all my co-workers and friends who took off into other directions besides being a missionary), whom I can only describe as some of the holiest people I have met, whom if I didn’t know better would be envious of their relationship with Jesus Christ. These people and myself wonder why people sit in the pews on Sunday and ignore the Pope on Monday. Because we heed all commands of Jesus through Peter, and we have suffered the loss because of it, but we wouldn’t have it any other way.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Pure ritualistic works religion.[/quote]
Maybe I’m not understanding, but please tell me what on earth you’re talking about and if you’re trying to say this is a bad thing. Because you seem to be making assumptions that I’m not following or are just outright false.[/quote]
[quote]“Remember when were talking over Facebook messenger and you finally convinced me to tell you why you were attracted to Catholicism? Remember? You’re proving it right now.”[/quote] is the key. I made my false assumption for the year back in January to get it outta the way Chris. Try to pay attention huh?
I think I’d prefer the next part in private first Chris which I would have just done if my PM’s worked. It’s late now though and I need a some time to formulate my response to this.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Pure ritualistic works religion.[/quote]
Maybe I’m not understanding, but please tell me what on earth you’re talking about and if you’re trying to say this is a bad thing. Because you seem to be making assumptions that I’m not following or are just outright false.[/quote]
[quote]“Remember when were talking over Facebook messenger and you finally convinced me to tell you why you were attracted to Catholicism? Remember? You’re proving it right now.”[/quote] is the key. I made my false assumption for the year back in January to get it outta the way Chris. Try to pay attention huh?
I think I’d prefer the next part in private first Chris which I would have just done if my PM’s worked. It’s late now though and I need a some time to formulate my response to this.[/quote]
I think you’re making a false assumption and forgetting what it means to be a faithful Catholic (though from your own words, you have never known so that is probably a good guess on my part).
And, no please tell me why I am attracted to Catholicism, because if you remember I had to convince you to tell me and then humbled myself to discern if the reason you bring forth is true. All that came of it was that I showed that all you can produce is a prejudiced and bigotted version of Catholicism that does not resemble anything like someone that studied Catholicism as you claim (I mean unless you consider Jack Chick and the book Roman Catholicism “studying”) and not least of all that you do not understand me no matter how much you protest that God prophesies through you that he is now down with the heresy called Calvinism and Geneva (though, St. Paul was definitely all about Rome).
So, let’s try again and show me why I’m attracted to Catholicism. There are 1000’s of reasons why I became a Catholic, I can only wait until I learn them all. There is only one reason why I love Catholicism (enough to keep me in the fold). So, please let’s try a little harder this time than generalizations and pretending that I’m one of your relatives that scandalized you.