I’ve not posted a topic here in this world issues forum, I enjoy it very much and the ranges of opinions and diversity it offers.
Recently, a new ‘friend’ and myself began a political discussion (on myspace of all places) …I noticed that a bulletin he sent out for reposting to all his friends list with negative Ron Paul propaganda, tagged ‘repost’. I merely smirked and replied to this friend, we’ll call him liberal Lou…That I wouldn’t be reposting, since I support Ron Paul. With a little wink and a smile, nothing too provoking. Anyway, this began a discussion…then a debate…which ended with this person deciding we can’t have ‘communications’ anymore. As you will see he is a supporter of O’bama.
I don’t believe this person is a member here, and I’m not using names, but it’s right in line and topical…and I’d be interested to hear opinions. Maybe I have a hard on for the chopping block I don’t know…but maybe I’ll hear some support in my direction too. Who knows. This is a long post, and some ppl will end up knowing personal things about me, but I’m not bothered and I’m proud of my past and of my stance.
If you’re tired of Ron Paul and debates concerning …merely avert your weary eyes, roll your eyes…or swallow them for all I care. Without further adieu…
The Beginning:
ME:Lol…not going to repost…hes the only one i’d vote for. ;oP
LIBERAL LOU: Ha, that’s funny. I just reposted this because a lot of ‘liberals’ think he is their savior. He’s not really a Republican though…he’s a Libertarian but very right wing in his votes. He wants to abolish Social Security too.
I am voting Obama.
Good to hear from you though.
ME: Yeah, I’m not a liberal…and know full well that his platform is libertarian. I think the IRS and the whole federal reserve can crumble for the better, and as for social security, most likely won’t be any by the time were there to claim it. There must be a better way than dipping and divvying that fund out to everything BUT its purpose.
Anyway… we could do this all day I imagine to no effect one way or the other lol…I agree with MOST of his policies but not 100 percent all…I think hes the drastic ‘change’ we need, that will actually include HOW he intends to change things (interesing and viable albeit scoffed at ideas) , not just throw that word around willy nilly. But, I don’t think you have too much to worry about…Paul is certainly no media darling, and all the google ron paul signs by the freeways of the US…don’t seem to ‘change’ that. Good to hear from you too :o)
ps- my brother is for obama, and i had to sit through an hour of the same youtube at full blast at 3 am after at least 3 twelve packs (i think he was trying for a brainwashing lol)…i’ve been tortured enough lol
LIBERAL LOU: I suppose my main problem with Ron Paul is that he (and his party) preach about small government and not interfereing in people’s lives. But he supports issues (such as not allowing people the right to die or have an abortion) which is the opposite of those supposed beliefs.
Politicians are scum and liars by nature of course.
Have you been to Europe? It’s such a different vibe there. There is so much energy on family and enjoying life rather than making money and going to war. I suppose that is why I find myself nearly a Socialist. But not all the way.
I think that things like Social Security represent a small way that we are taking care of our elders and selves. I think that’s a good thing. The fact that it’s broken right now doesn’t mean it should be shut down it should be fixed. I think it’s giving up to just shut it down and say every person for themselves. That’s a bit cold.
My wife and I examined moving to Italy but it’s SO fucking expensive to get there and they make you go through a HUGE deal to get in. Maybe someday…
I would never make anyone sit through anything. But it’s always fun to see why people like, and don’t like, someone.
hope you are well
ME: ME: Okay, its taken a few days for me to chew on this…and I just might alienate you with the things I’m going to say, but I’m gonna say them anyway. I am not a liberal, in fact…I don’t fall into any box, whether it be Republican, Democrat, Liberal (and those lines are disgustingly blurred now I’m not so sure there is a difference…(democrat/liberal)but there used to be)…I won’t even claim liberetarian, as my man Ron Paul is and we know it, even though he now runs as Republican…just to get the public and media to bat an eye in his direction and have a shot. I can’t say I blame him. He barely registers as a blip on the radar as it is. Rudy Guiliani gets more coverage and the fucker gets less a percentage. But I’m sure you’ve heard the gripes.
Let me just say, that I am a single mother. I work in sales, on entirely commissions. On. The. Phones. I am the person nobody likes. I have a high school education, and a continuation high school at that. Sure, I went to night school JC for a time…while trying to support myself working in a mail room…but it beat the shit out of my 19 year old ass, and try as I did…I couldn’t see the end game. I couldn’t see it was worth it. To go into major debt paying for an education on my own…living on top ramen, trying to major in English of all things…and end up owing more than I could possibly make as a…teacher? Journalist? Probably not. Probably just some asshole with a degree working in some field I don’t belong and owing a shitton.
You ask if I’ve ever been to Europe…yes, yes I have. England, Scotland, Wales, France, Ireland. All of the above. In fact, my fiance is from Ireland. He is an electrical engineering graduate. His education was free. I have spent months and loads of money applying to immigration to be with him, to marry. You’d be shocked what it takes, when you don’t just run across a border. You say its hard to immigrate to Italy…well my friend, it should be. When our country was built …and I know damn well it was on the shoulders of immigrants, it was no easy feat. Those people suffered to be here, and they were determined to have a better life in this country, just as people are today. But there is a difference now. There is a big difference. In those times the immigrants were proud and wanted to be Americans, they kissed the ground and worked without a sense of entitlement, without disdain and rancor for the very country that gave them chance and opportunity. It is not so in this day. And I want you to know, that I don’t exclude Americans themselves in this attitude. I do not agree with a welfare state. I work for a living, and I do not have health care. I pay it on my own and for my son. Yet, there is money taken from my checks, for others. I mentioned I work on commissions. The federal government taxes me as though I work on Wall Street. If I let them have their way, the 55,000 I make on my checks per year…I would end up with half of that. Can I support a child on that? No. Left alone I would be middle class at best, but with the Federal governments hands on me… I’m left in the poverty bracket. I know the elders of our country shouldn’t be left in the cold, I have a mother that is stricken with parkinsons disease…she couldn’t live on my dead fathers social security or otherwise… and I’m not for it, but I KNOW there is a better way than fleecing people such as myself. Its not in need of an overhaul, there is no such thing. Shit, our money doesn’t even have real value anymore…we just print it and print it. It’s a joke. Speaking of Europe once again, you tried traveling there on our dollar lately? LOL.
I’m sure you are aware, our healthcare system is in shambles. It’s pathetic. I’m sure you saw sicko and squirted a few tears like everybody else. BUT… they dont show the other side of the coin either. The NHS …the European system, suffers greatly. Its better, but by a narrow margin. The treatment people receive is horrible. They have shut down maternity wards all over England and why? Because the influx of immigration is so overwhelming, they simply cannot afford to deliver all the babies. Systems are downright overwhelmed, and not by people paying into the systems. No sir. There must be limits. My heart cannot bleed for the whole world. If we must build fences, we must build them.
I don’t want our country to intrude and capitalize from the affairs of other countries. I don’t want our soldiers to die for oil, and I don’t belive in forced democratization. I hate to do it, but I will quote Jack White… you can’t be a pimp and a prostitute too. America needs to help America. We’ve got starving children on our streets that we don’t help. Our money is worth next to nothing, our jobs are being outsourced, we owe our asses and everything else to China…and I don’t think there is any man that can change that other than Ron Paul.
The funny thing is… the Europeans that pay attention to politics…every single one I know, from Germany to Ireland and beyond… supports Ron Paul. And believe me, I know far more than I should lol… But it doesn’t really matter to me what Europeans abroad feel about my country, I live here…they don’t. I believe in the constitution, something we have and they never will. I’m sure you’ve heard Ron Paul supporters talk about this constitution thing a time or two. The piece of paper stuck to the bottom of Bush’s shoe. Stuck to the bottom of all their shoes. O’bama makes a good case…talks like a regular cookie cutter of Martin Luther himself, takes a nice page out of the Kennedy inspiration book…but I can detect the differences. I’m not sold. I’m a salesperson afterall. I’m not after the big talker, I’m after truth and the courage to say it, albeit without finesse and charm. I wan’t the unpopular bottom line, with a crooked old smile and real solutions, to ignored problems. Thats why I’m for Ron Paul.
Peace <3
LIBERAL LOU: Believe me, you won’t alienate me. I believe in people speaking their minds so don’t worry about it. Isn’t that what the Constitution stands for as well?
I understand your place. I was raised on welfare with a single mom. I have gotten Government cheese. I got free lunches at school and rode the poor kid buss. I know the deal.
However, Ron Paul is hardly the Freedom Fighter. He is only fighting for a small group and that is why is only getting a small vote. He for WHITE people. He is people that don’t want to pay taxes. That is a lot of people but most sensible people understand that no taxes would be a joke. I personally believe we don’t pay enough in taxes. I support my wife and child on one income and would gladly pay more taxes and vote to do so. Provided the right leader was in charge. I don’t believe in secluding ourselves and isolating ourselves from the world. It’s a global time and we should be global. We should and can place more importance on things that actually matter. MONEY and making sure the country is very white and very male is not a good idea and that is Ron Paul’s platform. That is why under his system men get to tell women what to do with their bodies and white people remain the majority in our country. I don’t believe in any of that and it’s hardly supported by the Constitution.
Obama is not Dr. King. He would be the first to admit that. Dr. King was one of a kind. However, Obama is a leader and in these times I think that is more important than anything else. He will send a message to the world, because they do matter, that we are not the little kid country anymore still run by old, white males. We are joining the rest of the world and growing up. We will begin placing value on things like CHILDREN, HEALTH, ENVIRONMENT, SCHOOLS. These are the things that matter. Money is such as easy thing to get hung up on. Everywhere else in the world $55,000 a year would be unheard of for what you do.
Ron Paul also voted against raising minimum wage. The idea that if you let everyone just go on their own and everyone will police themselves is just plain crazy. It’s a wonderful idea but it has never worked and it will never work. All systems are flawed but the beauty of ours is that it is still young and that people’s voice CAN matter. Assuming they actually learned about people’s positions and then actually voted. I watch all the debates and read about this stuff everyday. I want to make the right choice. I hope that I do.
And building fences?! Please. Show me one example in history where that has worked? The Great Wall of China? The Berlin Wall? Gaza? It doesn’t work. Fences don’t work. Im proving the lives of people in Mexico so that they don’t risk their lives to come here would be a start. Also, the notion that Mexicans are bad for our economy is horrible. They aren’t. Not to mention there are so many other things that Trump a border fence and taxes. They just seem like hot button, simple solutions for white America.
I would like to think we have evolved a bit more than that.
Thanks for the discussion though. And believe me that I am not offended by this type of thing. I welcome it.
**** This is where I quote him and respond beneath****
"Believe me, you won’t alienate me. I believe in people speaking their minds so don’t worry about it. Isn’t that what the Constitution stands for as well?
I understand your place. I was raised on welfare with a single mom. I have gotten Government cheese. I got free lunches at school and rode the poor kid buss. I know the deal.
However, Ron Paul is hardly the Freedom Fighter. He is only fighting for a small group and that is why is only getting a small vote. He for WHITE people. He is people that don’t want to pay taxes."
(ME: And only White people hate taxes? Why are you turning everything into a racial issue? Anyway, I dont object to paying state and local taxes; my community and I benefit from the infrastructure, the schools and the hospitals and everything else they pay for.
I do however, object to paying federal income taxes; which are used to pay for foreign wars and military bases in 130+ countries, subsidies and corporate welfare, billions of dollars in aid to Israel and other Middle Eastern countries, pork-belly projects and six lane highways to nowhere, marble palaces for overpaid government factotums, and everything else that I dont see a benefit from.)
“That is a lot of people but most sensible people understand that no taxes would be a joke. I personally believe we don’t pay enough in taxes. I support my wife and child on one income and would gladly pay more taxes and vote to do so. Provided the right leader was in charge.”
(ME: Ron Paul is against the federal income tax…not State or local taxes. Income taxes account for only one third of federal revenue…if the IRS was abolished, their revenue would be reduced to what is was in the year 2000. That just goes to show you how much the government has swelled since then, and how it could function without the IRS if spending levels were cut to year 2000 levels. (When this country enjoyed a surplus…not the billions of dollars of debt that we are no saddled with)
Why dont you just keep your taxes and support a leader who will put more dollars in your pocket…and dollars that are actually worth something, so you can better take care of your family?)
“I don’t believe in secluding ourselves and isolating ourselves from the world.”
(ME:Neither does Ron Paul.)
“It’s a global time and we should be global. We should and can place more importance on things that actually matter.”
(ME:Ron Paul often quotes Thomas Jefferson… Peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations entangling alliances with none."…entangling alliances…i.e. not interfering in other countries affairs and engaging in unjust wars.)
“MONEY and making sure the country is very white and very male is not a good idea and that is Ron Paul’s platform.”
(ME: No, money thats actually worth something and preventing this country from being inundated with illegal aliens are just two important parts of his manifesto.)
“That is why under his system men get to tell women what to do with their bodies and white people remain the majority in our country. I don’t believe in any of that and it’s hardly supported by the Constitution.”
(ME: Youre talking about abortion I assume. Ron Paul is against abortion, he would overturn Roe V Wade and end federal funding for abortion programs, but he wouldnt make it a federal crime. Its up to the States individually and the majorities who live in those states to decide on whether it is legal or not. WHICH IS PERFECTLY IN-LINE WITH THE CONSTITUTION.
Ron Paul has never said anything about maintaining a white majority. Thats just youre White guilt talking.
Incidentally, I dont give a crap about which race is a majority in this country, I just want my son to live in a civilized prosperous country, where his rights and everybody elses (regardless of race) are respected, and where hell have the same opportunities as I, and my parents had.
Youre turning everything in to a racial issue, because thats all Obama has in his favor. His mantra is change, but he never expounds on that…thats because he has no substance to any of his policies, just like all of the other corporate shills and media anointed from runners that this Countrys citizens have to choose from. The only substantive thing about him is that hes black or multiracial…that is the only thing about him that he has going for him, because it makes people like you rally behind him…people who think that they are being enlightened honorable iconoclasts…No offense, but you are just somebody riddled with White guilt who likes to feel good about himself by parroting the platitudes put out by the people behind Obamas campaign…meanwhile this country is going to hell in a hand basket, and Ron Paul is the only person proposing REAL CHANGE.
By now, you probably think Im a racist…I am not a racist…I dont give a crap about race…if Obama had the same policies and voting record as Paul, I would vote for him in a second…but he doesnt…sorry)
“Obama is not Dr. King. He would be the first to admit that. Dr. King was one of a kind. However, Obama is a leader and in these times I think that is more important than anything else. He will send a message to the world, because they do matter, that we are not the little kid country anymore still run by old, white males. We are joining the rest of the world and growing up. We will begin placing value on things like CHILDREN, HEALTH, ENVIRONMENT, SCHOOLS. These are the things that matter. Money is such as easy thing to get hung up on. Everywhere else in the world $55,000 a year would be unheard of for what you do.”
(ME: Healthcare, education and the environment would all be better off without the involvement of the federal government.
Healthcare is an expensive mess, because of all the vested interests and cartels that are protected by bribed politicians…get rid of government involvement, and the prices would come down…thats the beauty of free market economics.
The same with education.
Leave important services to the states and the free market to provide.
I feel lucky to be able to live in a country where i can earn 55k a year for working 20 hours a week, I sell the home warranties… and have a relatively decent standard of living…I want Ron Paul to be president so I can continue to do that.)
“Ron Paul also voted against raising minimum wage. The idea that if you let everyone just go on their own and everyone will police themselves is just plain crazy. It’s a wonderful idea but it has never worked and it will never work. All systems are flawed but the beauty of ours is that it is still young and that people’s voice CAN matter. Assuming they actually learned about people’s positions and then actually voted. I watch all the debates and read about this stuff everyday. I want to make the right choice. I hope that I do.”
(ME: You have heard Ron Pauls message, you just didnt understand it. He doesnt advocate anarchy (in the classical sense of the word), he just wants to drastically reduce the size of the federal government and curb its powers.
The role of government is not to take care of you from the cradle to the grave, or to intrude in to your private life…thats socialism.
Ron Paul wants to return the government to its original role…to protect this countrys borders and sovereignty, to protect your freedoms and privacy, and to protect your right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness; a role which made this country the greatest and most prosperous country on Earth.)
“I would like to think we have evolved a bit more than that.”
(ME: America doesnt need to elect a black man just because hes black to evolve. We just need to return to our countrys founding principles and adhere to them for a change…thats how bad things are now.)
“And building fences?! Please. Show me one example in history where that has worked? The Great Wall of China? The Berlin Wall? Gaza? It doesn’t work. Fences don’t work. Im proving the lives of people in Mexico so that they don’t risk their lives to come here would be a start. Also, the notion that Mexicans are bad for our economy is horrible. They aren’t. Not to mention there are so many other things that Trump a border fence and taxes. They just seem like hot button, simple solutions for white America.”
(ME: A country without borders is not a country. Ron Paul would probably bring the troops home from Iraq and send them down to the border; where they would be of more use to this nations national security. Then he would remove the freebies, incentives and the entitlements that make them risk their lives to get here…stuff like free education and health care, that are making the States teeter on the verge of bankruptcy.
FACT: Illegal aliens take far more in benefits than they contribute in taxes.
FACT: Illegal aliens drive down wage, because they are prepared to work for less than US citizens. This causes negative ripple effects through the economy and lowers everybodys standard of living.
FACT: AS HORRIBLE AS IT IS TO YOU, AND I HATE TO BREAK IT TO YOU, MEXICANS (living here illegally) ARE BAD FOR THIS COUNTRYS ECONOMY.)
“Thanks for the discussion though. And believe me that I am not offended by this type of thing. I welcome it.”
(ME:) Ditto. I know it sucks to be young and feel like you’re out of the loop…and we’re all disillusioned, and i know this goes against everything you were told in school, but just because Ron Paul’s an old White man…it doesn’t mean that he represents or protects the establishment and the status quo, that have have been progressively wrecking this country over the last 40 years.
For your own benefit…stop thinking in terms of race.)
“Ok…I surely don’t want to get into this any further. This clearly has shown our differences are too great to communicate any further. I would rather be in a Socialist country. There have been SEVERAL WRITTEN accounts that have surfaced showing Ron Paul to make racist statements on the record. Closing borders to brown people, making racist statements against blacks, rants on gays and Jews and limtiting the FREEDOM of women makes you the most typical WHITE MALE POLITICIAN on the planet. That’s not change.
As far as my ‘white guilt’ is concerned I think you over stepped your knowledge of me there. You may want to try less patronizing and original verbage. Saying 'no offense” doesn’t make it any less offensive.
Your stats on immigration must be from Lou Dobbs or Rush because they are not accurate at all. Without Mexican labor the cost of everything in California would go up. Not to mention I am pretty sure that this country is full of immigrants including you and I.
All of this hardly matters as Ron Paul has zero chance of winning anything.
I don’t think any idea fully rooted in selfishness and money is positive. I believe in other things. And believe me when I say that the with the money I make and the industry (insurance) that I am in it would GREATLY be to my benefit to believe all the things you do. I would be rich. But I still won’t vote for a Republican or Right Winger like Paul because I think they are morally corrupt.
I am not sure how you say I am making it about race when your candidate is against everyone but white men. That makes him the racist and bigot not me. Me pointing out another’s life long racist rants don’t make me the racist.
Here are some quotes from Paul before he ran for President:
Paul on gang crime in Los Angeles, If you have ever been robbed by a black teen-aged male, you know how unbelievably fleet-footed they can be.
Given the inefficiencies of what D.C. laughingly calls the …criminal justice system, I think we can safely assume that 95 percent of the black males in that city are semi-criminal or entirely criminal, Paul said.
Paul also wrote that although we are constantly told that it is evil to be afraid of black men, it is hardly irrational. Black men commit murders, rapes, robberies, muggings and burglaries all out of proportion to their numbers.
Stating that lobbying groups who seek special favors and handouts are evil, Paul wrote, By far the most powerful lobby in Washington of the bad sort is the Israeli government and that the goal of the Zionist movement is to stifle criticism.
The controversial newsletters include rants against the Israeli lobby, gays, AIDS victims and Martin Luther King Jr. – described as a “pro-Communist philanderer.” One newsletter, from June 1992, right after the LA riots, says “order was only restored in L.A. when it came time for the blacks to pick up their welfare checks.”
Americas number one need is an unlimited white checking account for underclass blacks.
Koreans were the only people to act like real Americans,�?? it explained, mainly because they have not yet been assimilated into our rotten liberal culture, which admonishes whites faced by raging blacks to lie back and think of England.
He has garndered the support of many white supremist and gun lobbies because he DOES support the notion of isolating people.
If you could find some Obama comments where he belittles Jews, women, blacks or Mexicans please let me know. I have yet to find any but am open to learning everything possible before tomorrow’s vote."
Back to quoting and responding
“Ok…I surely don’t want to get into this any further. This clearly has shown our differences are too great to communicate any further. I would rather be in a Socialist country.”
(ME: Good for you…good luck with that.)
"There have been SEVERAL WRITTEN accounts that have surfaced showing Ron Paul to make racist statements on the record. Closing borders to brown people, making racist statements against blacks, rants on gays and Jews "
(ME: Paul didnt write those comments; a staffer did without his supervision or direct knowledge.
He has repudiated those comments recently…you should investigate the skeletons in Obamas closet…stuff he actually did…try scratching below the surface of the headlines this time.)
“As far as my ‘white guilt’ is concerned I think you over stepped your knowledge of me there. You may want to try less patronizing and original verbage. Saying 'no offense” doesn’t make it any less offensive.
Your stats on immigration must be from Lou Dobbs or Rush because they are not accurate at all."
(ME: Regardless of where they came from, theyre still true. I can give you some sources you might consider reputable if youd like.)
“Without Mexican labor the cost of everything in California would go up. Not to mention I am pretty sure that this country is full of immigrants including you and I.”
(ME: I dont have a problem with immigrants coming to this country legally and contributing to society as best they can. Right now, there is no system or checks and balances on whos actually coming in here from Mexico.Be they drug runner, terrorist, paedophile, murderer or honest hard working Mexican. The open border (which is kept open by design…to drive down wages and to destroy the middle class) with Mexico is unfair to people who actually get in line and follow the rules.
My ancestors came here legally and Im pretty sure yours did too…
As for prices going up, thats true in the short term, but the standard of living (and not to mention a reduction in State taxes) would offset them positively.
California is nearly bankrupt, and has been running in the red for many years, because of all the services provided free of charge to illegal immigrants.
Bottom line…people should come here legally…contribute and get paid properly for the work that they do.)
“All of this hardly matters as Ron Paul has zero chance of winning anything.”
(ME: Youre probably right, which is a damming indictment of this country today, and how much our population has been dumbed down.)
“I don’t think any idea fully rooted in selfishness and money is positive. I believe in other things. And believe me when I say that the with the money I make and the industry (insurance) that I am in it would GREATLY be to my benefit to believe all the things you do. I would be rich. But I still won’t vote for a Republican or Right Winger like Paul because I think they are morally corrupt.”
(ME: Money isnt really important to me either, but i�??m not planning to move to a utopian socialist paradise 
But unfortunately money is a necessity which facilitates my ability to exist comfortably and to do the things that I want to do in life.
Right now, the dollar is collapsing because of the deficit and overspending, and it buys far less than it did just a few years ago.
Ron Pauls plan to return to the gold standard would boost the greenback; which would inject stability in to the economy, give me more bang for my buck and end the periodic booms and busts.
Unless youre planning to live like Ted Kaczynski in a shack somewhere…this is very much to your advantage too…because this economy is heading for a meltdown really soon unless this and other measures proposed by Paul are undertaken.
Ron Paul is the only candidate running on both sides, as far as im concerned, who has any integrity at all, and whos running for the right reasons.
"He has garnered the support of many white supremist and gun lobbies because he DOES support the notion of isolating people.
If you could find some Obama comments where he belittles Jews, women, blacks or Mexicans please let me know. I have yet to find any but am open to learning everything possible before tomorrow’s vote."
(ME: Paul has a broad spectrum of support, and is supported by Republicans, independents and democrats alike.
I would consider myself an independent, and Ron Pauls manifesto just makes sense. I dont give a crap who else supports him and their reasons for doing so. All that matters to me, is what I think, and what I embrace.
You should try independent critical thinking sometime…its not underrated.)
Sorry about the length, I just thought it was all important. He replied and it was more of just racist accusations. So, I guess I’m just another casualty in the war of politics…a victim of ‘friendly’ fire. Oh Myspace friends, can’t we all just get along. :oP