Cardio: Thoughts/Discussion

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
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I wanted to get more of your guys’ opinions on this subject.

Im currently having a backoff week and them am going to start another cycle. I feel my workouts and diet are pretty well dialed in, but the addition of more cardio, and periods of low carbs may take it to the next level. Im currently 190lbs at about 14-15% BF and would like to stay the same weight but cut down my fat to 10-12%. (I know this means i’ll be trying to build muscle and burn fat at the same time) I dont want to start a debate on whether this can happen, because Ive seen enough evidence to suggest that it does. And im already at the weight i want to be at, so I see no reason to change my calorie intake. Instead i’ll be using progressive resistance training, cardio, and nutrient timing to achieve my goals.

So after I replied in this thread last week, I started researching more on fasted cardio, and just cardio in general. I knew if I looked for research in journals, I would find evidence supporting all types of cardio, so instead, I looked through forums and transformation logs, to see what people are doing. I also found a lot of articles giving the pros and cons of the different methods which was very helpful. I think like everything else, there are many methods, and some work for some people, while others work for other people. Here’s a summary of what I found and my opinions on some of it.

  1. FASTED MORNING CARDIO VS. NON-FASTED

Well as far as “fasted” goes, I didn’t see too many people doing a pure fast. Almost everyone was suggesting at least taking in a protein source before working out whether it be whey or BCAA. Also, most people were taking in some caffeine.

The exact mechanism of “fasted” cardio wasn’t discussed much. The idea is that after an overnight fast, glycogen levels would be depleted and fat would thus be burned for fuel. Chad Waterbury mentioned that glycogen levels would likely still be relatively full since fat is the major fuel source during sleep. So another possible mechanism might be that the fat is already mobilized upon waking.

Also there seems to be a notion that working out in a fasted state is going to make you burn all your muscle. While this is certainly possible, I think people are fearing it a bit too much.

The supposed purpose of non-fasted cardio, is to raise oxygen requirements and spare muscle, so that fat can be burned after exercise, while fasted cardio the purpose is to burn fat during exercise.

  1. HIIT vs. STEADY STATE

This one is kinda interesting. There are definate advantages to HIIT depending on how you use it, but it can also be a very dangerous tool. It is kinda trendy lately and thus everyone just assumes its the way to go, but there is plenty of evidence suggesting that steady state work can be very effective. The basic premise of HIIT is to increase oxygen demand and burn a lot of glycogen so that you burn a lot of fat after exercise. While the purpose of steady state exercise is to burn fat during exercise. I know everyone doesn’t completely think this way, but I think this is oversimplifying a very compex mechanism.

So based on what I saw from my research, there was a pretty even amount of people supporting each method. There was also a ton of people preaching that steady state was completely inferior, and that fasted cardio will burn up muscle.

In my opinion each method can work extremely well, depending on who is using it and how they do it.

  1. WHO IS USING IS?

I mentioned it before, and I was mistaken in my reasoning, but the type of training the individual is used to will definately change what they should be doing for cardio.

To oversimply things, lets assume there are two classifications.

-strength athletes that are not sig. hypertrophied
-boybuilders who have a lot of muscle

Strength athletes, will be used to a lot of low rep work, having a great deal of strength, and likely a decent mitochondrial density. Also their ATP-PC system will be the most developed. They will be lacking in lactic acid tolerance though.

Bodybuilders, will be used to long working sets with short rest, have poor mitochondrial density, and well developed lactic acid buffering mechanisms.

SO BASED ON THESE ASSUMPTIONS, A STRENGTH ATHLETE WILL NEED TO DO HIIT IN ORDER TO DEVELOP THEIR LACTIC ACID SYSTEM. ALSO, IF THEY TRY TO DO STEADY STATE CARDIO THEY WILL BE LIMITED IN THEIR INTENSITY, BECAUSE OF THEIR POOR LACTIC ACID TOLERANCE

BODYBUILDERS ON THE OTHERHAND WOULD BENEFIT BEST FROM STEADY STATE CARDIO FOR A COUPLE OF REASONS. FIRST OFF, MOST OF THEIR TRAINING IS ALREADY VERY SIMILAR TO HIIT. THEY ARE USED TO LARGE LEVELS OF LACTIC ACID WITH SHORT REST. THERE IS NOT REASON TO DO MORE OF WHAT THEY ARE ALREADY DOING AND OVERSTRESS THESE SYSTEMS. ALSO, THEY ARE USUALLY HEAVIER, SO THERE IS AN INCREASED RISK OF INJURY TO THE KNEES AND FEET WITH HIIT. THIS INCREASED BODY WEIGHT WILL ALSO RAISE THE CALORIC DEMAND OF STEADY STATE CARDIO. THIS IS LIKELY THE REASON WHY A LOT OF BODYBUILDERS HAVE GOTTEN GREAT RESULTS WITH SOMETHING LIKE WALKING FAST A CARDIO OPTION.

  1. How they use it?

There are many factors that go into how you should implement a method. Schedule, other training, outside stresses, nutrition, recovery, etc. etc… But no matter who you are there a few things that make sense.

Keeping the carb intake low before a cardio workout makes a lot of sense. Also, a protein source and some caffeine makes good sense as well.

In my opinion, a low amount of carbs with BCAA’s during the workout would be a good idea as well.

Some people will do cardio after a resistance training session, which would be pretty similar to doing it fasted in the morning. Which one you do may just depend on your schedule.

Also some people will do cardio on a seperate day from resistance training.

After all of that, the topic is still as unclear as ever.

I have an idea what I should do though.

Im neither bodybuilder nor strength athlete, but somewhere in between. I have a pretty open schedule as well.

So for me, Im likely going to combine all of the methods.

I’ll do fasted cardio, taking in some protein and caffeine before. It will be a very low intensity version of HIIT. Something like a 30 second fast pace, with a 2-minute recovery period.

I’ll also do HIIT non-fasted on my days i dont lift weights. These sessions will be a little more intense, something like 1-minute fast, 1-minute recovery.

I’ll also probably take in a small amount of carbs during all workouts, and more carbs on the higher intensity workouts.

Well after all of that im not really sure what would be best, but im gonna give it a go for a month and see what happens.

Any comments are appreciated.

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I suppose you could use that. But I would think if you’re going in between the two paths, you’d probably do the low intensity fasted (well protein/caffeine before) cardio without carbs since bodybuilders do this.

Then continue with the HIIT as you have it.

That’s what I would do and would think would work, but I’ve never cut. I stay pretty lean while bulking, but I’m only 175. I’m sure it will get harder the bigger I get.

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I agree with Trenchant. I wouldn’t do a semi-fasted HIIT session in the mornings. I would leave that low intensity (like walking briskly on a treadmill). The HIIT on your off days seems good. If you haven’t already, I would search the MD forums on what they have to say about cardio. Lots of opinions over there.

Honestly, after thinking about this over and over. I think cardio (no matter the style) is just a way to burn more calories throughout the day, to either build a larger caloric deficit or to allow your body to uptake more nutrients (like G-Flux). Definitly let us know what you chose and how it worked out for you.

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Thanks guys for the input.

What is the MD forum?

Also, I forgot to mention that I am slightly limited by plantar fasciitis, so I tend to avoid long bouts of cardio. So for me, its always going to be short, the question is whether it is steady or intervals.

Today I tried out one of the sessions I might normall do for my HIIT. It wasn’t fasted, but heres what I did.

Stepup (10 each leg)
Swiss ball mountain climber 15 each leg
Incline treadmill walking (15incline/3.5speed) x 3 min.

Repeated 3 times

This was fairly easy, and I could definately have done more, but this is my backoff week, so I was just trying it out. In all it took about 12 minutes or so, and my heart rate ranged from 160-170 most of the time, but got up to 180 at one point.

I think this will be one of my options for a non-fasted HIIT session.

I’ll also do some form of sprints on " the bike as another option.

For my “fasted-steady state” cardio, im going to be more limited by my feet. I’ll likely do one of three things.

1)10min bike / 10 min treadmill(or eliptycal)
2)15 min bike or 15 min treadmill (or elliptycal)
3) 5 x 3min on bike or treadmill (1-minute between sets)

Thats about it thus far. I’ll let you guys know how things go.

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[quote]elusive wrote:
Trenchant wrote:
From what I’ve read/know, the HIIT is harder to recover from when dieting/low carbing. Generally, one would want their body’s efforts to recuperation go towards preserving muscle. I believe that’s why it’s been accepted to do HIIT during the first few/couple of weeks of dieting but reduce it as your calories go down.

Personally, I do intervals 2-3x a week and fasted (few chugs of whey isolate before) cardio 1-2x a week. My intervals, though, are pretty pathetic at times because my legs are generally trashed from leg day. I do the fasted morning cardio because it works for most people and has a proven track record. But I’m bulking. I’ve yet to lean out (only 174 lbs :frowning: So maybe you shouldn’t really listen to me about this.

I know bigger folk will not do intervals often because they’re big and its hard on joints. DC recommends the fasted cardio as does Thibs. Really, the only people I see saying not to do it is “functional” people like Cosgrove.

I agree with everything you’ve said and have had the same train of thought. I’ve gotten really lean a few times and have never done serious bouts of H.I.I.T. Low intensity does have a proven track record and many (if not most) bodybuilders use it as their method. To play devil’s advocate, why would a high intensity cardio session be tough to recover from, if we’re already weightlifting in a low glycogen state. I would imagine that weightlifting is much more stressful on the body than a cardio session. If glycogen is spared by ketones in weightlifting, wouldn’t the same happen during cardio?[/quote]

You do realize your talking about the difference between 300 to 1500 calories right?

With H.I.I.T your talking about your body first trying to recover the glycogen to put back in your muscles for energy, then the glycogen to repair damaged tissue, then your hormones coming back in check. All this takes time if you have to wait for your body to convert protein + fat into glycogen. Plus now more protein then usual is wasted just being turned into glycogen.

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I just found this which is kinda relevant

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While I’m not a bodybuilder I have done pretty good at getting my fat down and keeping it there by doing 5-7k runs every morning plus afternoon 4x400m sprints 4 times a week. It’s either that or diet and I just cannot diet.

I do eat something sweet before going to bed, usually of the Breyer’s double churned variety at ten-ish and run about 5am. That’s only 7 hours so I don’t know if that’s considered fasted. But there is no way I could do sprints or intervals fasted without dying, and I definitely can’t do them first thing in the morning.

And there is always caffeinated beverages consumed prior to all runs. But that’s because I love them :slight_smile:

I’ve dropped many inches off my waist without losing all my leg muscles this way.

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[quote]debraD wrote:
While I’m not a bodybuilder I have done pretty good at getting my fat down and keeping it there by doing 5-7k runs every morning plus afternoon 4x400m sprints 4 times a week. It’s either that or diet and I just cannot diet.

I do eat something sweet before going to bed, usually of the Breyer’s double churned variety at ten-ish and run about 5am. That’s only 7 hours so I don’t know if that’s considered fasted. But there is no way I could do sprints or intervals fasted without dying, and I definitely can’t do them first thing in the morning.

And there is always caffeinated beverages consumed prior to all runs. But that’s because I love them :slight_smile:

I’ve dropped many inches off my waist without losing all my leg muscles this way.[/quote]

Its good to see that theres someone else out there that uses training to get some results rather than dieting. Dieting just seems so un-natural to me and has never worked very well. Ice cream is one of my “cheats” as well, but im usually finishing a workout at 8pm or so, so this is more of a post workout snack.

Thanks for the input.

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[quote]dankid wrote:

What is the MD forum?

[/quote]

MuscularDevelopment.com
They have a pretty informative forum.

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thanks i found it. There seems to be a lot of information over there.