I don’t have carbs at all on days I train in the mornings. Just BCAA’s (lots of), betaine, citrulline malate, creatine malate peri workout. I then eat high fat/ moderate protein (keto) for the rest of the day.
[/quote]
So you wouldn’t even eat a tablespoon or two of salsa, meaning .5-1 grams of carbs? Or chicken soup with onions, celery, and carrots in it, according to my math, about 5 or 6 grams of carbs total (I make a large batch and then freeze it in liter mason jars, so no two jars are uniform so best I can do is a guestimate)?
New to this and this is my first day out of the ten day preparation phase and just trying to learn and wonder if I screwed myself having a small, 6oz banana with two small, “EZ Open” cans of tuna after my AM lifting.[/quote]
No, incidental carbs are fine and not worth worrying about. On the 10 day preparatory phase however, DEFINITELY you want to avoid added carbs like sugar in your coffee etc etc. Only the very small incidental carbs from veggies are acceptable during this phase for maximum results.
The reason for this is that you want to get into ketosis ASAP.
MCT’s and GDA’s like Indigo3g, R-ALA etc will help you make the uncomfortable transition to ketosis MUCH quicker, and are highly recommended…
It all depends on your goals…
If your looking to shred up, I would drop the banana/carbs, and stick with a fast protein/leucine shake in it’s place.
If your looking to gain ‘quality mass’ (haha Mack from Always Sunny) like Spidey was talking about in his plan, then the extra small insulin spike courtesy of the banana can stay.
I don’t have carbs at all on days I train in the mornings. Just BCAA’s (lots of), betaine, citrulline malate, creatine malate peri workout. I then eat high fat/ moderate protein (keto) for the rest of the day.
[/quote]
So you wouldn’t even eat a tablespoon or two of salsa, meaning .5-1 grams of carbs? Or chicken soup with onions, celery, and carrots in it, according to my math, about 5 or 6 grams of carbs total (I make a large batch and then freeze it in liter mason jars, so no two jars are uniform so best I can do is a guestimate)?
New to this and this is my first day out of the ten day preparation phase and just trying to learn and wonder if I screwed myself having a small, 6oz banana with two small, “EZ Open” cans of tuna after my AM lifting.[/quote]
I’m pretty sure it’s impossible to eat zero carbs unless doing like a water fast. lol. Just avoid legitimate carb sources. Usually the rule is >30g of trace carbs.
One protocol of CBL includes about 30g carbs PWO (like a banana) after AM training, then back to ULC until a late night backload. [/quote]
Ah yeah, of course zero carbs are impossible! lol
I just try to REALLY minimize them to get into ketosis as quick as possible.
Hey mate, had a visit to B-Paks site, I’m likin’ how he rolls
I couldn’t find the ‘metabolic flexibility’ podcast you mentioned, unless it’s the recent one with Brad Schoenfeld in it? There was some intersting info in that, agreed.
If I was firmly in the B-Pak camp of “I will not EVER eat carbs again for my 1st meal”, I am now set in concrete on it.
Cheers man
-Pete[/quote]
Um I can’t recall the name, but I think it’s the second one JM and B-Pak did together, with the one featuring Schoenfeld being the 3rd. Hope that helps. [/quote]
Just got through the thread. Appreciate the very useful links to other discussions regarding CBL.
I’ll be starting CBL in a week (off for a vacation tomorrow) and I was wondering if you guys could help me out with a couple of questions.
Do you guys use the Carb / Protein recommendations that Keifer has given or do you guys follow something else?
How much fat do you guys take with your PWO meals?
I’m a fan of Poliquin and I’ve seen him provide credible research on how carbs with a high Glycemic Load when combined with Saturated
Fat lead to arteriosclerosis (hardening of arteries).
An example would be butter on bread. Sure, bread isn’t a good carb source but if you switched that with white rice which has a similar
Glycemic Load, wouldn’t that have the same effect?
Considering that one of the key components of CBL is to introduce fast acting carbs, I would be very interested to hear what you guys have
exactly PWO. I’ve seen rice and potato’s as a unanimous carb choice but what sort of protein is that paired with?
I was looking forward to some great sushi or Thai food on a slightly more regular basis!
I slightly concentrate more of my fat to the morning, but save some for night. I don’t follow the 1:1 gram for gram rule that Kiefer suggests on his forums (he did for awhile) because many on there, including myself, found those who are 1)leaner and )use larger/more frequent backloads, can cut the fat in half and benefit. So I use the standard 1g per lb of BW for Protien, and .5g/lb for fat.
PWO, i just have Protein and a Banana (with some creatine, just if you’re curious)
I don’t worry about fat intake on my later backloads. I prefer high GI carbs, so those choices are easy, but I often times eat PB&J’s with milk as backloads, and have seen no ill-effects.
currently in day 1 (lol) of the 10 day decome-keto phase.
read the book a couple times but still have a couple questions for those who have done it/are doing it.
wake up, within 10-20min, fish oil + accelerator shake (right after waking up), no-no?
or
wake up, wait couple hours, fish oil + accelerator shake?
or is the whole coffee and coconut oil and accelerator shake 2 different things?
I wanted to combine them for the sake of convenience
Spidey it seems you know a lot about backloading. Let me ask you some points that I could not understand clearly.I am very lean probably %7-8 bf, 154lbs and 180cm. I am lifting for 2 years. Started backloading this week. I skip the ULC phase because I was doing keto diet for 8 months.
I want to gain some muscle and weight with maintaining the bf I currently have.So:
Do you recommend more than 1g/lb protein or is it just wasted calories?
2)I have the book but there are some points that I could not understand. According to ULC chart I select 165lbs. Chart says somewhere 125g of protein(I select the high protein one) and 30g fat for the low carb portion of the day.Isn’t 125g of protein too much and a lot of people say something about 1:1 protein fat ratio. Is this 1:1 ratio is for all day or just for ULC portion of the day?
3)What do you reccommend for low carb(before training) fat intake and backloading fat intake?
Ok I’ll try and answer these the best I can, but know these are just my opinions. lol
I don’t go over 1g/lb intentionally. The reason just being I feel that’s more than enough, protein foods are more expensive than carbs/fats, and carbs and fats are just tastier. But I don’t think more protein is ‘wasted’, just doubt there is much of a benefit other than it keeps you a but more full.
Ok first off, fuck the charts lol. they are kind of confusing and even the information they provide isn’t the helpful. the 1:1 ratio is something that is be adhered to during the ULC portion of the day, so if you eat 100g of Protein in that first 1/2 or 2/3 of the day, eat 100g of fat as well.
HOWEVER, many who have used CBL, including myself, have found that once someone is leaner, it’s more like a 1:2 ratio. So in the above example you’d eat 50g of fat for 100g of protein. But in all honesty, it doesn’t really matter, it’s just probably a good idea to not to eat JUST protein in the ULC portion of the day
Depends. If I’m lifting early in the morning, I’ll only have some protein powder + VCO in my coffee. Later in the day, I’ll usually always have some eggs+egg whites pre-WO. In the backload, I just try to no be stupid with my fat intake, unless I’m just doing a huge cheat day. However, I do like to eat ‘dirty’ foods, like donuts or something, so I usually split half my fat intake in the earlier part of the day, and save the last half for the backload. I eat the fattier sweet stuff latest in the night, after having already eaten a lot of rice/potatoes/etc
That really varies man. Honestly with you having been keto for sometime, I’d start off with a few modest backloads a few times a week post WO. Maybe start of at about .5-1g/lb of BW in carbs, and work your up every week, adding about 25g of daily carbs a week until you start gaining weight too quickly.
Have you ever watched brandon carter carb backloading bulking videos? In terms of what he eat during the day,he uses carb backloading.In backloading he eats ice cream of course fatty.But what I do not understand is his macros for day.He eats around 250g protein,103g carb and 300g of FAT man…So I am asking that is carb backloading more like a tkd aproach with low carb after workout and high amount of fat during day or like keep fat medium to low and high carbs after workout?
Another thing is that you said 0.5-1g/lb of carbs.I am taking 160g of protein and lets say I will take 1g/lb. So it makes around 1200 calories.My aim is 2600-2700 calories for a clean bulk so i must take 150g of fat every day. Isn’t that too much when I am in a caloric surplus and with the presence of carb won’t it turn to be body fat?
I mean I’ve seen both approaches with CBL, bud. I’m more of a moderate pro, moderate fat, high carb guy. Ryan who posts on this site does a style of CBL’ing that is low fat, high protein and high carb. This dude Brandon Carter (who I like, thanks for showing me his channel) seems to prefer high fat, mod protein, and mod carbs.
You have to find what works for your body man, some people do use this as a kind TKD like you said, and they do basically a ‘strength accumulation’ style of CBL where they have as many if not more ULC days than they have backloading days per week. Others like me use a Density Bulk approach and just east carbs daily, but use CBL as way to use carbs more efficiently (IMO).
If you’ve been keto for awhile, what are your current macros with that? If you’re eating 2000~ calories and 2700 is you goal, I would not suggest just jumping up there that quickly. So starting off, II’d have Backlading macros at something like 160/160/80 C-P-F. After a week or so, if you haven’t gained weight (be careful because adding in carbs after not having some for awhile may cause water retention so don’t mistake that as fat), add in another 30 carbs. Week or so later, do the same. Build up to that 2700, and if you build up to that and still find yourself not gaining weight, keep going. Don’t get caught up on the 2700 number because that’s what a calculator said, use whatever number has you gaining .5-1 lb every 1-2 weeks consistently.
I was taking 3000 calories a day but gaining no weight and becoming even leaner. Maybe I was gaining muscle but the diet was also becoming very expensive…
Spidey22, my main fear is that is I cut the fat to half preworkout and binge on carbs after post workout, am I going to switch my fat burning body to carb burning, fat storing one or must I follow a diet like Brandon Carter’s to keep that fat burning effect active?
[quote]Canastethics wrote:
I was taking 3000 calories a day but gaining no weight and becoming even leaner. Maybe I was gaining muscle but the diet was also becoming very expensive…
Spidey22, my main fear is that is I cut the fat to half preworkout and binge on carbs after post workout, am I going to switch my fat burning body to carb burning, fat storing one or must I follow a diet like Brandon Carter’s to keep that fat burning effect active?[/quote]
I’m telling you did, you’re going to have to experiment. But binging on carbs PWO is not going to change your body into ‘fat storing’ mode or whatever you’re trying to say. You’ll be fine, but understand this is a style of eating that requires experimentation lol
The purpose of the backloading is to be ready for the next workout, not recovering from the finished one, right?
Then why not bulk with a TKD diet only small amounts of carbs after your workout? I remember Lyle McDonald says that only 2g of carbs per set or something like that is enough to refeed the used glycogen.( I mean he said only small amount of carbs is sufficent.)
[quote]Canastethics wrote:
Ok man, last question:D
The purpose of the backloading is to be ready for the next workout, not recovering from the finished one, right?
Then why not bulk with a TKD diet only small amounts of carbs after your workout? I remember Lyle McDonald says that only 2g of carbs per set or something like that is enough to refeed the used glycogen.( I mean he said only small amount of carbs is sufficent.)[/quote]
Because some people do better with higher carbs, whether it’s from a physiological or mental point. I’m of the philosophy someone should eat as much calories and carbs they can while hitting or maintaining their athletic or aesthetic goals.
I just have a question about the 10 day no carbs part. What kind of calories do you consume? Let’s say I can eat about 3400 calories and not gain any weight or lose weight, how many calories do you eat during the 10 day period? Do you consume 3400 calories of just veggies, protein and fat? Or do you drop calories below 3400, but still consume veggies, protein, and fat?
Hi, I hope I’m not too late for this discussion as there seems to be a number of knowledgeable people here. But I was hoping for thoughts on if at about 17% BF and looking to lose fat I should opt for CBL or CNS?
I wanted to contribute to this with my current diet which is CBL for lean bulk
Daily calories stay the same at my own sweet spot of ~3500+ a day
8am prepare a big coconut smoothie with shredded coconut (7oz for my goals…rehydrate them to make a home made milk)+superfoods+ one serving of fruit (in order of preference, lemon, berries, banana). Sip during the day. MCTs are awesome
10am (whenever I’m hungry in the morning) one avocado
12am big raw salad with salted butter, garlic, apple cider vinegar
6pm Plazma protocol
6:30pm workout
8pm 3 or 4 cans of small fish in olive oil or up to 1.5lb of rare meat or 12 eggs +4oz (dry) of cooked buckwheat or white basmati, with red onion, peppers…
9pm ZMA
70%f/15/15
Nearly 0 glucose variation throughout the day. This is such an awesome way to eat plenty of healthy foods, good fats, proteins and veggies variation. Constant energy. Loving it
