Capitalism: A Love Story

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
101

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:
I don’t know if i’d say moore is tortously manipulative. It is obviously a one sided story as are most documentaries. Although personally I’d never been a fan of the whole capitalism ideal, mind you it’s not really capitalism either when you bail out companies. I guess I’ve just always been of the “how many fucking cars do you need” mentality. [/quote]

The first thing you need to realize is that capitalism is not about need. I only need 1 car but if I’m talented, skilled, motivated, driven and ambitious enough to earn enough money to buy 5 cars, why shouldn’t I? [/quote]

Never realized this got moved, thought it just died off.[/quote]

Just realized it myself, today.

That’s awesome. I’m sure you have no problem donating all of your extra cash (extra meaning everything other than necessities) to charities. I have no problem with that mindset.

However, I have a problem with the mindset that YOU should have the ability to tell ME what I can and can’t do with my own money (that I’ve earned), and that includes buying 5 cars if I want. Because that is what makes me happy (hypothetically).[/quote]

Common good? Society and laws tell us what we can and can’t do all the time. Why can’t I take a wooden knife which i whittled myself and go on a killing spree. Extreme example but the world would be a lot better off if we helped take care and watched out for one another rather then all being greedy fucks. Unfortunately it wont ever matter, people are almost always inherently greedy, we are in a society that promotes that and in the end you win, because its bat shit crazy to help your community it’s much cooler to drive a BMW.
[/quote]

Why can’t I have BMW AND help my community? Life is not a zero sum game.

102

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Whereas you, by maintaining the superiority of the free market, require that there is a massive conspiracy to subvert it, despite its obvious advantages.[/quote]

Well, sorry ryan, but the idea that a government would subvert a free market, and replace it with one that allows for considerable more direct control, is hardly conspiracy. I mean, it’s happening right in front of us, where everyone can see it. Why is it so hard for you to wrap your head around the idea that governments are comprised of people, and people in power want to stay in power, so said people will work to increase their influence in our daily lives as a means to say “see, you need us, you can’t get rid of us”; thereby staying in power.

It is a politicians direct attempt to establish his/her “value”.

103

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

Not at all, I simply decline to waste my time in that particular fashion. Why are you so defensive all the time?[/quote]

It’s not a defensive reaction, but rather my annoyance with your elitist, “I’m much smarter than the common sheep” attitude.
[/quote]

I’ll try to use more slang then, or something.
[/quote]

Hellz yea, that would be dope…

104

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

So, you have nothing to say, right? Duly noted.

By the way, informing you that are wrong is not arrogant. But thanks for confirming my analysis.
[/quote]

[i]
Main Entry: ar·ro·gance
Pronunciation: \Ë?er-É?-gÉ?n(t)s, Ë?a-rÉ?-
Function: noun
Date: 14th century

: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions[/i]

It’s all you baby…lol

105

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:Don’t confuse my desire to hold a deeper understanding of economics and the socialist ideology with being “mystified by economics”. LOL
[/quote]

But that’s just it–you don’t have any desire for a deeper understanding of economics. Because you clearly know nothing about it, yet you’re utterly convinced of the free market’s superiority (despite the fact that the free market position has been utterly refuted over and over again). This is otherwise known as prejudice. You simply look for material that reinforces what you already believe. That’s why you pitch such a fit when someone brings up a fact you don’t like.[/quote]

I know enough to know that in a discussion of labor theory vs market exchange theory, I’ll put my money on market exchange theory every time. You make the claim that free market positions have been “utterly refuted” (LOL). This is bullshit, and methinks you know it. You constantly throw out the theories of Marx and your opinions as well, and claim them as “facts”. If the free market has been so utterly refuted (as you say) then it shouldn’t be a problem for you to back it up, right?

The last part of your post is just another example of your sad irony. You accusing anyone of prejudice is comical at best.

106

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Whereas you, by maintaining the superiority of the free market, require that there is a massive conspiracy to subvert it, despite its obvious advantages.[/quote]

Well, sorry ryan, but the idea that a government would subvert a free market, and replace it with one that allows for considerable more direct control, is hardly conspiracy. I mean, it’s happening right in front of us, where everyone can see it. Why is it so hard for you to wrap your head around the idea that governments are comprised of people, and people in power want to stay in power, so said people will work to increase their influence in our daily lives as a means to say “see, you need us, you can’t get rid of us”; thereby staying in power.

It is a politicians direct attempt to establish his/her “value”.
[/quote]

But you can only arrive at this conclusion by totally ignoring the reason for intervention in the first place, which is that the market failed. Hardly a conspiracy when you examine all the evidence. Far from wanting to control businesses, most Congressmen take great pains to allow business to do more or less whatever it wants.

107

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

So, you have nothing to say, right? Duly noted.

By the way, informing you that are wrong is not arrogant. But thanks for confirming my analysis.
[/quote]

[i]
Main Entry: ar�·ro�·gance
Pronunciation: \Ã??er-Ã??-gÃ??n(t)s, Ã??a-rÃ??-
Function: noun
Date: 14th century

: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions[/i]

It’s all you baby…lol

[/quote]

What is arrogant about informing someone that they don’t know their ass from their elbow? What is arrogant is insulting me when you are clearly wrong.

108

Of course you would, and this is a fantastic example of your utter blindness and devotion to ideology: there is no such thing as a labor theory of value vs “market exchange theory” dichotomy. The labor theory is fully compatible with market exchange (Marx did use it in his analysis of capitalism, after all [could that be something else you don’t know anything about?]), and labor theories were expounded by Adam Smith and David Ricardo, among others, well before Marx took it up. See? You don’t even know what you’re talking about, yet you’re sure the “free market” theory is the correct one. You’re a joke.

Really? Well then why don’t you explain how? You never do. You simply state your opinion and then accuse me of fabricating things, which is the irony I pointed out.

Care to list all the nations that embrace the free market? Why doesn’t anyone do it if it’s so great, especially since everyone always says that’s what they’re for? Why is China kicking our asses with a heavily government-directed economy? This will require another massive conspiracy theory to cover your ignorance (and arrogance, as you refuse to consider the very obvious fact that you are wrong), or you could man up and really (not for pretend) subject your opinions to scrutiny. I wonder which it’ll be…?

I do, all the time, and that’s why you get so mad at me. Not that I disagree with you–in that case you would merely be content to ignore me–but that I disagree with you, and I’m right, and you know it. Quit attacking me for your own failures.

Why? It’s true. Notice your post. You vehemently disagree with me (you’re such a good drone), but yet agian, you raise no substantive points. You don’t attempt to corect anything I say, you merely insult me and expect me to fall in line when you tell me I’m wrong. Again, I document my facts, and you don’t.

109

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:
I don’t know if i’d say moore is tortously manipulative. It is obviously a one sided story as are most documentaries. Although personally I’d never been a fan of the whole capitalism ideal, mind you it’s not really capitalism either when you bail out companies. I guess I’ve just always been of the “how many fucking cars do you need” mentality. [/quote]

The first thing you need to realize is that capitalism is not about need. I only need 1 car but if I’m talented, skilled, motivated, driven and ambitious enough to earn enough money to buy 5 cars, why shouldn’t I? [/quote]

Never realized this got moved, thought it just died off.[/quote]

Just realized it myself, today.

That’s awesome. I’m sure you have no problem donating all of your extra cash (extra meaning everything other than necessities) to charities. I have no problem with that mindset.

However, I have a problem with the mindset that YOU should have the ability to tell ME what I can and can’t do with my own money (that I’ve earned), and that includes buying 5 cars if I want. Because that is what makes me happy (hypothetically).[/quote]

Common good? Society and laws tell us what we can and can’t do all the time. Why can’t I take a wooden knife which i whittled myself and go on a killing spree. Extreme example but the world would be a lot better off if we helped take care and watched out for one another rather then all being greedy fucks. Unfortunately it wont ever matter, people are almost always inherently greedy, we are in a society that promotes that and in the end you win, because its bat shit crazy to help your community it’s much cooler to drive a BMW.
[/quote]

Wow. If you can’t see the difference between buying a BMW (which doesn’t harm anyone) and going on a killing spree (which obviously does), I’m afraid you’re not even intelligent enough to grasp where you’ve gone wrong, and I’m not even going to waste my time trying.

110

So being ruthless in a economic sense is ok, economic murder is ok. Just not actual murder? I mean hell, the guy who works minimium wage 12 hours a day just so he can buy food and a shack to live in must be having a wonderful time.

111

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

So, you have nothing to say, right? Duly noted.

By the way, informing you that are wrong is not arrogant. But thanks for confirming my analysis.
[/quote]

[i]
Main Entry: ar�?�·ro�?�·gance
Pronunciation: \Ã???er-Ã???-gÃ???n(t)s, Ã???a-rÃ???-
Function: noun
Date: 14th century

: an attitude of superiority manifested in an overbearing manner or in presumptuous claims or assumptions[/i]

It’s all you baby…lol

[/quote]

What is arrogant about informing someone that they don’t know their ass from their elbow? What is arrogant is insulting me when you are clearly wrong.[/quote]

What’s arrogant is you placing yourself and your flawed theories on such a high pedestal, and presenting it a flawless, when clearly it is not.

112

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:

[quote]bigflamer wrote:

[quote]Ryan P. McCarter wrote:
Whereas you, by maintaining the superiority of the free market, require that there is a massive conspiracy to subvert it, despite its obvious advantages.[/quote]

Well, sorry ryan, but the idea that a government would subvert a free market, and replace it with one that allows for considerable more direct control, is hardly conspiracy. I mean, it’s happening right in front of us, where everyone can see it. Why is it so hard for you to wrap your head around the idea that governments are comprised of people, and people in power want to stay in power, so said people will work to increase their influence in our daily lives as a means to say “see, you need us, you can’t get rid of us”; thereby staying in power.

It is a politicians direct attempt to establish his/her “value”.
[/quote]

But you can only arrive at this conclusion by totally ignoring the reason for intervention in the first place, which is that the market failed. Hardly a conspiracy when you examine all the evidence. Far from wanting to control businesses, most Congressmen take great pains to allow business to do more or less whatever it wants.
[/quote]

You see the government involving itself in the economy as it coming to it’s rescue, when in actuality, it’s more often than not cleaning up it’s own mess with more of the same. (the definition of insanity? hmmmm…) We’ve discussed this at length previously regarding the great depression of the thirties and the recession that preceded it in the early twenties. It was foolish government involvement and foolish manipulation of the money supply that led to that great depression, and then exacerbated it even further. You didn’t like the factual data that I supported my argument with so you packed up and went home.

Do you really believe that most politicians “allow business to do more or less whatever it wants”? Honestly answer that.

113

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:
So being ruthless in a economic sense is ok, economic murder is ok. Just not actual murder? I mean hell, the guy who works minimium wage 12 hours a day just so he can buy food and a shack to live in must be having a wonderful time.
[/quote]

Lol, what are you talking about?!?!

114

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:
I mean hell, the guy who works minimium wage 12 hours a day just so he can buy food and a shack to live in must be having a wonderful time.
[/quote]

Whenever you lose something, you gain something. Whenever you gain something, you lose something. Instant vs delay gratification. Past vs future. All it is.

struggle, acute stress, pressure … all these help mold people. Polish them into beautiful gems. This is capitalism. Its dog-eat-dog. And its utterly beautiful.

Hand-outs, free stuff, bailouts … all help to decay people. To enforce the position that they don’t have to use their mental faculties to obtain things needed to survive. This is socialism. It produces parasites. And it is a disgrace to man’s mind.

For the guy who works 12 hrs min wage in the example above.

He either learns to work more efficiently and more intelligent, which will increases his value or he stagnates - for whatever reason he does not adapt. He does not enter into a meaningful position in the market place.

Maybe he just doesn’t have the mental faculties. Maybe it turns out actually having a job is good for him. But whatever the case, we shouldn’t take money from another to give to him. Never should we strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.

But… if you want to give money to him, go ahead. Perhaps even create a charity. Maybe a “Poor People” Awareness group. But dont ask me to sacrifice my happiness for another. And don’t define what makes ME happy. Im in it for me. And so are you… it just so turns out though, your happiness comes from helping others… but not by yourself alone, but by ENFORCING others to.

115

Ahhhh, but there is. You see, the two ideas lead to diametrically opposite economic systems. Market exchange theory says that labor is only one of many determining factors which go into placing “value” on a thing. LVT says that labor is the sole determining factor (or at least the dominant factor) in placing value. LVT ignores time preference as well. Who advances the wages of the worker who has labored to create a product which may be months away from selling? If labor is the sole determining factor in placing value, isn’t the common rock, found right next the the diamond, just as valuable? I mean, the same amount of labor was expended to retrieve both from the earth, right? Does all effort produce the same value? I mean, is the labor of a highly skilled carpentar equal to the labor of a novice and mediocre carpentar? If the highly skilled carpentar trims my house and does a fabulous job in two days, is his labor less valuable than the novice carpentar that took two weeks to complete the same job, which wasn’t half as nice?

And you’re right, Marx did place a backdoor on his wacky theory with “socially necessary labor”, which of course defines “socially necessary labor” in terms of the competitive market. (you see, even Marx himself couldn’t get away from free market theory) The free market is so powerfull, it has even found it’s way into the heart and mind of socialism’s greatest champion! lol

Now I’m compelled to ask you for your definition of free market. It’s gonna be relevant to our discussion.

Now, you’re skipping some real important facts here. One being that China was once a MUCH more government regulated economy than it is today, and it was a train wreck pure and simple. Now, what you’ve failed to mention is that China has since embraced more capitalist practices, and would now be more accurate to refer to it as a mixed economy. I haven’t researched this, but I’d be willing to bet that China’s rise in economic output is in direct corelation to it’s implementation of capitalism. Food for thought. It’s also important to point out that the average person in China is dirt poor, as in third world poor. And we haven’t even mentioned the unbelievable levels of polution that country sustains.

I am not the one who is getting mad here, and certainly not the one who is leading in the name calling contest (and I’m certainly not going to bitch and moan about it either; I mean, grow some balls, dude). This is clearly you, as everyone who is reading this discussion can see. Statements like those above paint you as a petulant child upset that someone is throwing rocks at his precious economic theories. “I’m right and you know it!!”, is not an argument. You’re gonna have to do better than that.

Wrong, I vehemently disagree with you and back up my facts. This is pure dishonesty on your part. It’s unbelievable how comfortable you are in accusing others of doing exactly what you do on a regular basis. Do an honest review of our discussion and see hom many times you’ve insulted me and expected me to just tuck my tail between my legs and wander off. Not gonna happen bro. I document my arguments just fine, you are choosing to ignore this fact. Did you read any of the links I gave you? I’m betting not.

116

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:
“how many fucking cars do you need”[/quote]

As many as my garage/drive through will fit without having to pull 4 or 5 to get to the one in the back.

117

[quote]SickAbs wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]SickAbs wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:
I don’t know if i’d say moore is tortously manipulative. It is obviously a one sided story as are most documentaries. Although personally I’d never been a fan of the whole capitalism ideal, mind you it’s not really capitalism either when you bail out companies. I guess I’ve just always been of the “how many fucking cars do you need” mentality. [/quote]

The first thing you need to realize is that capitalism is not about need. I only need 1 car but if I’m talented, skilled, motivated, driven and ambitious enough to earn enough money to buy 5 cars, why shouldn’t I? [/quote]

Because more often than not (waaaay more often) things are done corruptly and to the detriment of others. I.E screwing families over for commissions etc. Ive worked with kids who, at the age of 22, were rich. I mean 4 cars, properties, brieghtling(?) watches etc. They fucked people over with mortgage refinancing etc. Think about the movie boiler room. Capitalism is hard because of greed. If greed didnt exist then there would be no problems. Look at goldman sachs’ “Fabolous” Fabrice. That guy is heartless. Selling stock he knew was crap to widows and families. Too much of this happens everyday.[/quote]

That’s not capitalism. That is people committing crimes outside of the capitalist system.

And I’d like to see some support that most wealthy people have acquired such wealth by being corrupt and to the detriment of others. That’s simply not true.

Edit - and before you come back with that “It’s a result of capitalism” nonsense, there are “greedy” people willing to operate outside the system in ANY type of economy. [/quote]

Your edit came after my post. The United States has the most corruption in business/politics and government than any other nation(we’re talking progressive countries, not thrid world etc). Dont misunderstand me. We rose to become the greatest nation through our ideals etc but as we continue to progress I believe without some changes things can only get worse. More wealth funneling into the top 1%.[/quote]

What is the difference between a ‘progressive country’ and a ‘third-world country’?

118

[quote]SickAbs wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]SickAbs wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]SickAbs wrote:

[quote]LankyMofo wrote:

[quote]Rookie21 wrote:
I don’t know if i’d say moore is tortously manipulative. It is obviously a one sided story as are most documentaries. Although personally I’d never been a fan of the whole capitalism ideal, mind you it’s not really capitalism either when you bail out companies. I guess I’ve just always been of the “how many fucking cars do you need” mentality. [/quote]

The first thing you need to realize is that capitalism is not about need. I only need 1 car but if I’m talented, skilled, motivated, driven and ambitious enough to earn enough money to buy 5 cars, why shouldn’t I? [/quote]

Because more often than not (waaaay more often) things are done corruptly and to the detriment of others. I.E screwing families over for commissions etc. Ive worked with kids who, at the age of 22, were rich. I mean 4 cars, properties, brieghtling(?) watches etc. They fucked people over with mortgage refinancing etc. Think about the movie boiler room. Capitalism is hard because of greed. If greed didnt exist then there would be no problems. Look at goldman sachs’ “Fabolous” Fabrice. That guy is heartless. Selling stock he knew was crap to widows and families. Too much of this happens everyday.[/quote]

That’s not capitalism. That is people committing crimes outside of the capitalist system.

And I’d like to see some support that most wealthy people have acquired such wealth by being corrupt and to the detriment of others. That’s simply not true.
[/quote]

Read the paper/ look at the news? Didnt wall street corruption cripple our economy and destroy Greece’s? Look, I’m obviously a cog in the capitalistic system. I buy $250 sunglasses, armani exchange everything etc. You earn it, you buy it. I like that, but given the opportunity the majority of people would do something illegal to make goobs of money. Look at our politicians for fucks sake. You got Rob blagoyavich trying to sell senate seats! You got people hiring illegal immigrants to capitalize on property investments. I know the last one first hand. Flipping properties and hiring illegals for dirt cheap to make a huge profit. Im only 24 but I know the game. Shit you got people at gnc selling old people No Explode because they get an extra $4 commission. [/quote]

I think it’s because you read the paper/look at the news that you feel this way. The main stream media is complete crap.

I’d elaborate but I actually have work to do today. :confused:
[/quote]

The main stream media doesnt do enough to highlight everything that happens! Did you see when the top CEO’s etc for goldman sachs were at the congressional hearing? Those guys have ruined millions of lives. But ask anyone if they would trade lives with some of them. When I was a teenager I saw boiler room and I aspired to be a crook stock broker, even though they screwed over families because they pulled up in fucking lamborghini’s. Ask me now if I’d screw over an innocent family for a lambo…i’d have to think about it.[/quote]

That is a lack of morals, not a corrupt system. I just bought a new car for my sales job because of the money I am making. It is a 2005 Chrysler 300 Touring (I only buy used cars), I work three hours a day. I make $100 commission upfront on every serviced account, I did not do anything corrupt or immoral to sell those people. I’m sure there are plenty of snake oil salesman out there, but I did mine straight laced.

119

[quote]John S. wrote:
Yeah let me rage against capitalism on my computer.
[/quote]

Haha

120

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

[quote]John S. wrote:

[quote]pittbulll wrote:

I think you give big govenment too much credit. Big Business learns to exploit markets , it is their nature , governments have to make sure these exploitations are not criminal even in the broadest sense [/quote]

When government gets involved the polititicans get bought off then your big business turns into a monopoly.

Business only gets big if it is good at what it does, if it oversteps its bounds to the point that people get pissed off they will stop buying from them and they will get wiped out of the market. What government does is save businesses. The free market would have gotten rid of Goldman sachs, guess who saved it.[/quote].

walmart and mcDonalds did not buy any one off, they started our fair enough, but now they are exploiting America’s cheap labor . It is not their fault but it is factual all the same. Starting with illegal immigration

As much of a supporter of Sam, I am, I have to disagree. Ever heard of the money they received to build in city limits from the cities and then built their stores outside of city limits so they were not hit with taxes?[/quote]