Cap and Trade Farce

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Additionally, anyone who thinks they will be ahead of the game with an $8 per week difference from the Obama “tax cut” while nearly every entity who produces just about everything he has to buy has to pay greatly increased taxes, is a fool.

The supply and demand curves will intersect at a higher price point, resulting in higher prices. Very basic. The idea that Everyman can live high on the hog by bleeding high producers dry is appealing to some, but incorrect.[/quote]

Clearly you didn’t go to Harvard.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

The supply and demand curves will intersect at a higher price point, resulting in higher prices. Very basic. The idea that Everyman can live high on the hog by bleeding high producers dry is appealing to some, but incorrect.[/quote]

Hey now! Gordon Brown did it and look how well it’s working out for those Brits. They’re in great position to weather the storm!

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Additionally, anyone who thinks they will be ahead of the game with an $8 per week difference from the Obama “tax cut” while nearly every entity who produces just about everything he has to buy has to pay greatly increased taxes, is a fool.

The supply and demand curves will intersect at a higher price point, resulting in higher prices. Very basic. The idea that Everyman can live high on the hog by bleeding high producers dry is appealing to some, but incorrect.

Clearly you didn’t go to Harvard.[/quote]

Where one can learn all kinds of things that aren’t so?

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:

Clearly you didn’t go to Harvard.

Where one can learn all kinds of things that aren’t so?

[/quote]

yes, but they should be so. that’s all that really matters.

Hey Dhick I like your avatar. And take it easy on Bill…no one can be right 100% of the time.

[quote]winkroar3 wrote:
Hey Dhick I like your avatar. And take it easy on Bill…no one can be right 100% of the time.[/quote]

Bill should know me well enough by now to know that I was being sarcastic.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Additionally, anyone who thinks they will be ahead of the game with an $8 per week difference from the Obama “tax cut” while nearly every entity who produces just about everything he has to buy has to pay greatly increased taxes, is a fool.

The supply and demand curves will intersect at a higher price point, resulting in higher prices. Very basic. The idea that Everyman can live high on the hog by bleeding high producers dry is appealing to some, but incorrect.

Clearly you didn’t go to Harvard.

Where one can learn all kinds of things that aren’t so?

[/quote]

And become a thoroughgoing lettered expert too. Good gracious heavens, where would we be today without these giants?

Luckily for us, Obama is Harvard-educated, which means he has learned that the law “really” means whatever a more enlightened social view would consider best.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Additionally, anyone who thinks they will be ahead of the game with an $8 per week difference from the Obama “tax cut” while nearly every entity who produces just about everything he has to buy has to pay greatly increased taxes, is a fool.

The supply and demand curves will intersect at a higher price point, resulting in higher prices. Very basic. The idea that Everyman can live high on the hog by bleeding high producers dry is appealing to some, but incorrect.[/quote]

Oh yeah, well now I can get TWO twelve packs of Coke!

Don’t forget the higher minimum wage further increasing the price point intersection.

[quote]pushharder wrote:
It’s beyond disgusting that the media ignored this story in favor of one about the death of a stupid celebrity.[/quote]

A vial, child molesting, monsterish, freak, dumbass of a celebrity…He would have just been another achoholic former childhood star if it were not for Qunicy Jones, he was the genius behind all his major success.
The worst thing about him croaking is I have not stopped hearing about the asshole.

[quote]Bill Roberts wrote:
Luckily for us, Obama is Harvard-educated, which means he has learned that the law “really” means whatever a more enlightened social view would consider best.[/quote]

Whew! Ya had me worried for a minute there.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
Bill Roberts wrote:
Additionally, anyone who thinks they will be ahead of the game with an $8 per week difference from the Obama “tax cut” while nearly every entity who produces just about everything he has to buy has to pay greatly increased taxes, is a fool.

The supply and demand curves will intersect at a higher price point, resulting in higher prices. Very basic. The idea that Everyman can live high on the hog by bleeding high producers dry is appealing to some, but incorrect.

Clearly you didn’t go to Harvard.

Where one can learn all kinds of things that aren’t so?

And become a thoroughgoing lettered expert too. Good gracious heavens, where would we be today without these giants? [/quote]

I wonder if any of people here who constantly bash Ivy League schools have ever even set foot in one of them, let alone know what they are like.

Oh, I have never dealt with anyone from Harvard in my life, let alone very many of them, nor have I of course ever read any large number of articles by them enabling me to understand their views. Just don’t have a clue. As usual, I am talking through my hat.

Why, probably Harvard Law graduates are all determined that they law means what it says, even when a more enlightened social view would have it that something different would be better. Don’t know how I could have ever thought differently. Thanks for straightening me out.

Can someone tell me with all this bull about cap and tax and the new cafe laws does Obama or even Gore not have to fallow them?

Obama rides around in a bullet proof caddy which gets bad gas milage to start with and add all the extra weight makes it even worse not only that but he has a motorcade with 5-6 SUV’s in it which gets crappy gas milage.

Gore has big houses that he pays more a month for gas and electric then the average person does each year.

so do they have the fallow the laws or are they immune from them?

[quote]Slayers wrote:
Can someone tell me with all this bull about cap and tax and the new cafe laws does Obama or even Gore not have to fallow them?

Obama rides around in a bullet proof caddy which gets bad gas milage to start with and add all the extra weight makes it even worse not only that but he has a motorcade with 5-6 SUV’s in it which gets crappy gas milage.

Gore has big houses that he pays more a month for gas and electric then the average person does each year.

so do they have the fallow the laws or are they immune from them? [/quote]

Gore may or may not be a hypocrite in his energy usage, but the POTUS is entitled to the best modern protection we can give him. Those are security measures, and the extra weight is necessary. I don’t want to see the POTUS assassinated, no matter what his party.

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Can someone who DOES believe in human-caused, EPIC DOOM, global warming comment on cap-and-trade?

I’m saying this because it is quite obvious those who don’t believe in the above will obviously not support cap-and-trade. I’m interested if anyone who DOES believe the above dissents from the cap-and-trade support-orgy.

Let us, you and I, assume that human-caused global warming exists.
Let us have cap-and-trade. Trade? This means that there is something of value to be traded.
Will there be a market in the excess caps? Will a company which burns less carbon than demanded then be able to sell its allotment?
If so, there will be a secondary market in carbon caps–options (calls and puts) and futures. (Check in on the Chicago Board of Trade or the Philadelphia Exchange in a few months.)

Well, all this makes sense on one condition, that the carbon caps, when purchased for a value, will be used.
How can carbon dioxide emissions be reduced if the caps are all to be used?

(Now the proponents of such a system say that it is already in use and working in the control of acid rain. I have not seen this verified.)

I am not convinced. Even if I were to believe in human-caused global warming, this is not a sufficient answer.
It only amounts to a tax on all human activity.
[/quote]

Let it be said, I don’t like Waxman-Markley. It’s a mess of a bill – too many giveaways, too many specific regulations, too much regulatory uncertainty, probably no net effect on carbon emissions. But let me explain a few things.

Yes, of course there will be a market in carbon futures. There’s already a small one in Chicago (Chicago Climate Exchange, run by Richard Sandor.)

The idea is that a certain number of carbon credits will be issued; an absolute cap on carbon that can’t be surpassed. Assuming this upper limit is lower than the amount of carbon currently emitted, then yes, all the carbon credits will be used. Permission to emit carbon is of value to any company.

Yes, emissions trading programs have been put in place for SO2, and they seem to have worked well:
http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/1997/emissions-1217.html

My problem with cap-and-trade, aside from the imperfections of this particular bill, is that it introduces too much price uncertainty. With a carbon tax, you know the price of carbon for sure (it’s the tax amount) but you can only roughly predict how much emissions will drop. With cap-and-trade, you know exactly how much emissions will drop (it’s the cap level) but you can only roughly predict the price. The result is scary volatility, especially in the futures market – that’s what happened in Europe. It’s compounded by the political temptation to give permits away for free to favored industries. So nobody knows how many permits will be on the market in the future, how much they will cost to obtain, or what additional emissions regulations will be put in place.

In a perfect world, I’d favor a nice, simple carbon tax – but the policies that have the least potential for pork & favoritism never seem to get passed, do they?

(Note: of course Waxman-Markley, and any other emissions-reduction program, is a tax on energy consumption. Of course it is distortionary, of course it is redistributive, of course it is regressive. That’s definitional. And yes, those are bad things. Whether it’s worth it to incur those costs to stave off global warming is the most difficult question of the present, and I think anyone who’s certain of the answer is either lying or misunderstands the issue.)

Cmon a carbon tax, what for? Global Warming is the biggest farce here, do you realize that we can’t even predict the weather for 7 days and yet we somehow are able to predict it 10-50 years down the line?

[quote]AlisaV wrote:

(Note: of course Waxman-Markley, and any other emissions-reduction program, is a tax on energy consumption. Of course it is distortionary, of course it is redistributive, of course it is regressive. That’s definitional. And yes, those are bad things. Whether it’s worth it to incur those costs to stave off global warming is the most difficult question of the present, and I think anyone who’s certain of the answer is either lying or misunderstands the issue.)[/quote]

I don’t have a problem with pursuing greener fuels or getting away from carbon and lessening our impact on the environment. In fact those are things I rather like. We need to lead the world again, and changing technologies has a very, very large number of positives attached to it if we can get through the transition period.

However, this is a shitty bill, it was pushed through the House in a shady manner, and most of all, we don’t have the money!! If something like this is pursued, it should be when our economy is kicking ass and taking names, not whimpering in the corner with broken legs. The things this bill will do to us right now are just catastrophically bad IMO.

We don’t have the money.

None of this shit is about anything other than putting the final guillotine choke hold on what’s left of the private sector. This and that health care abomination will put every last thing we do, even while sleeping, under federal control.