[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Can someone who DOES believe in human-caused, EPIC DOOM, global warming comment on cap-and-trade?
I’m saying this because it is quite obvious those who don’t believe in the above will obviously not support cap-and-trade. I’m interested if anyone who DOES believe the above dissents from the cap-and-trade support-orgy.
Let us, you and I, assume that human-caused global warming exists.
Let us have cap-and-trade. Trade? This means that there is something of value to be traded.
Will there be a market in the excess caps? Will a company which burns less carbon than demanded then be able to sell its allotment?
If so, there will be a secondary market in carbon caps–options (calls and puts) and futures. (Check in on the Chicago Board of Trade or the Philadelphia Exchange in a few months.)
Well, all this makes sense on one condition, that the carbon caps, when purchased for a value, will be used.
How can carbon dioxide emissions be reduced if the caps are all to be used?
(Now the proponents of such a system say that it is already in use and working in the control of acid rain. I have not seen this verified.)
I am not convinced. Even if I were to believe in human-caused global warming, this is not a sufficient answer.
It only amounts to a tax on all human activity.
[/quote]
Imagine the possibility:
Somebody does nothing and builds up carbon offsets from doing nothing. Then, rather than sell these offsets, they sell covered calls on the option market for their carbon offsets. They could even be fairly aggressive with it; even if they get assigned, they can continue doing nothing to replace the carbon offsets they just lost.
I don’t know how much each “unit” of offset would sell for, nor how many any single person or company could “earn” from doing nothing, but that would be some of the easiest money ever made.
[quote]tGunslinger wrote:
<<< Imagine the possibility:
Somebody does nothing and builds up carbon offsets from doing nothing. Then, rather than sell these offsets, they sell covered calls on the option market for their carbon offsets. They could even be fairly aggressive with it; even if they get assigned, they can continue doing nothing to replace the carbon offsets they just lost.
I don’t know how much each “unit” of offset would sell for, nor how many any single person or company could “earn” from doing nothing, but that would be some of the easiest money ever made. [/quote]
I don’t how profitable this would actually be, but that is a brilliant point and brings up yet another question. How, pray tell, will carbon production be measured? One thing that is absolutely certain is it will produce yet another enormously powerful level of beaurocracy with massive abuse, manipulation and corruption.
Like that will do any good. Remember the tsunami of anti-spending emails, phone calls months ago? That worked wonders. Yup, no spending passed by Congress.
[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
Beowolf wrote:
Can someone who DOES believe in human-caused, EPIC DOOM, global warming comment on cap-and-trade?
I’m saying this because it is quite obvious those who don’t believe in the above will obviously not support cap-and-trade. I’m interested if anyone who DOES believe the above dissents from the cap-and-trade support-orgy.
Let us, you and I, assume that human-caused global warming exists.
Let us have cap-and-trade. Trade? This means that there is something of value to be traded.
Will there be a market in the excess caps? Will a company which burns less carbon than demanded then be able to sell its allotment?
If so, there will be a secondary market in carbon caps–options (calls and puts) and futures. (Check in on the Chicago Board of Trade or the Philadelphia Exchange in a few months.)
Well, all this makes sense on one condition, that the carbon caps, when purchased for a value, will be used.
How can carbon dioxide emissions be reduced if the caps are all to be used?
(Now the proponents of such a system say that it is already in use and working in the control of acid rain. I have not seen this verified.)
I am not convinced. Even if I were to believe in human-caused global warming, this is not a sufficient answer.
It only amounts to a tax on all human activity.
[/quote]
[quote]Chewie wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
It just passed the house
Yep and I just puked. [/quote]
And it looked like nasty pelosi. We need to work over the senate…Call! Write! My elected reps are all republican…Those of you who have democrats need to bombard them with bitching. The republicans are already on board.
[quote]BluePfaltz wrote:
I fucking hate this shit. I was listening to Monica Crowley who basically spelled it out for me on the radio, and I REALLY fucking hate this shit.
Please, someone explain to me why we are allowing this power and money grab to happen…[/quote]
Email and call in to your reps, if it doesn’t do anything at least you can say you did your best to stop this foolishness from passing. Don’t give up, fight till the end!
The Republican party, in its current form, is no better than the left. The problem with the Republicans is that they need to start supporting “reason, individual rights, and freedom” and drop the “religion, tradition, and family values” mantra. Ron Paul happens to be the most “libertarian” of the Republicans, but ulitmately he comes down to religious beliefs, rather than reason as the foundation for his policies. You can see this in his stance on abortion.
Headhunter, have you read the new left? I read that in its revised form “Return of the Primitive - The Anti-Industrial Revolution”. I remember thinking it was right on in its analysis of the environmental movement.
Be careful about this talk of it being DOA in the senate. I suspect it’s a strategy to lessen the urgency of opposition between now and then. It will no doubt have a tougher time there, but until it’s voted down I won’t breathe easy.
I can’t believe nobody’s brought up the EPA suppression of an INTERNAL critique by a long long time researcher calling into serious question the overall validity of all this hysteria.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
I can’t nobody’s brought up the EPA suppression of an INTERNAL critique by a long long time researcher calling into serious question the overall validity of all this hysteria.
[/quote]
I read a copy of the report. It pretty much sinks the entire Global Warming belief system. This bill is nothing more then a wealth redistribution plan.
[quote]hedo wrote:
<<< This bill is nothing more then a wealth redistribution plan.
[/quote]
This whole agenda is nothing more than that. Always has been… for decades. It’s about tattooing a federal stamp on every single atom of productivity in this nation and creating centralized dependence from the rest so that EVERYBODY is either answerable to or dependent on THEM.
[quote]Mikeyali wrote:
Rockscar wrote:
We will need to live under this tax for the next few years and let it hit hard enough for it to make a difference in Obama lovers minds.
It’s the greatest scam, aside from the election of Obama, to ever happen in the US.
What are you talking about?! 95% of Americans are going to get a tax cut. Jeebus, you conservatives are such a bunch of paranoid fear mongering liars.
mike[/quote]
You sound like an MSNBC chick falling out of the ugly tree. 95% get a tax cut. It has not showed up on my check yet buddy. That’s a freakin scam too. Research shows each American will on average have an extra 8 bukcs a week.
Theoretically, 95% may get to keep an extra what?..200 bucks this year, but YOU and I will spend hundreds, if not THOUSANDS more on the cap and trade TAX, and it is a Tax, coming out of this through everyday purchases…cars, gas, electricity, transportation and food. You are crazy if you do not think that goods and services costs will rise considerably.
Yes, I guess conservatives are fear mongers when it comes to the Government stealing money out of our pockets for an unproven climate change hypothesis, and that’s all it is…a hypothesis. Cap and Trade is fear mongering 101.
Additionally, anyone who thinks they will be ahead of the game with an $8 per week difference from the Obama “tax cut” while nearly every entity who produces just about everything he has to buy has to pay greatly increased taxes, is a fool.
The supply and demand curves will intersect at a higher price point, resulting in higher prices. Very basic. The idea that Everyman can live high on the hog by bleeding high producers dry is appealing to some, but incorrect.
