Can't Believe This SH*T

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
41

[quote]Adamsson wrote:
The problem arrives when people compare christianity anno 1500 with islam anno 2006… This is not in any way a valid comparison and only strenghten the opposition… :)[/quote]

How does this not compare? Pretty much all major religions are intolerant of others, and have murdered each other with extreme fucking prejudice for thousands of years.

The difference is when people get educated, get a decent standard of living, and get tired of the bloodshed.

Christianity and Islam are exactly the same as far as using the sword to spread their beliefs. There are plenty of deaths on every God’s behalf all the time. You’re fooling yourself to think otherwise.

42

[quote]Sloth wrote:
You seem to have a real hard time with scale and proportion. Throughout much of the Islamic world those issues I’ve raised are widespread. Not Isolated, but widespread. You’re defenisve nature is touching, but it’s bunk.

Apostacy laws, women wearing fucking tents at risk of being stoned to death in the streets, men getting a slap on the wrist compared to women involved in “indecent” acts. Brother’s holding down sisters while the mother slashes the throat of the disgraceful daughter. Heretics, and those that convert away from Islam face death, sometimes through the government and/or the populace. Often both.

Yes, Christians, Jews, and even atheists (gasp! Stalin, Khmer Rouge?!) have their share of idiots. But today, it’s the majority of the Islamic world practicing this brutal oppression and theocratic-totalitarianism. Those who don’t, sit on their thumbs. Where is that vast majority we hear of? Why don’t they overthrow and run-off this tiny minority?

I’ve always loved the quote btw. It’s funny hearing Marx’s view. As Socialism itself is the opiate of the masses, which seeks to rob the individual for the common good of the masses.[/quote]

It seems like all of this boils down to a single issue. Yes, that issue.

So let me ask you: is divorce court, alimony, and feminism so much better? Is it somehow more civilized to shit on men than it is to shit on women?

Western women certainly do not walk around wearing “fucking tents”. And as a direct consequence of that, the west is plagued by an over abundance of stuck-up bitches. Most men raised in the West act like slack-jawed idiots around women and try to hit on anything that moves. Is this such as an ideal scenario? The peak of civilization?

Let’s get real for a second.

Men are responsible for the wealth and progress of any society. Men build roads, bridges and cars, men advance humanity’s understanding of the hard sciences (even when the other gender is allowed equal participation, as is the case in this country). Men, not women. Men produce wealth, women produce babies. Alright?

If you’re incapable of seeing reality for what it is, then at least leave other people (and their cultures) alone when they try to do things more efficiently. Not everyone can afford to put up with the bullshit that we do here in the West.

In general, a society becomes more open-minded and liberal as it’s living conditions improve. Don’t expect people living in hellholes to adhere to any ideology besides darwinism. The best way to help them is to let them help themselves. Historically, this has been achieved through free and unfettered trade. Not economic sanctions. Not regime change.

43

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
So let me ask you: is divorce court, alimony, and feminism so much better? Is it somehow more civilized to shit on men than it is to shit on women?

Western women certainly do not walk around wearing “fucking tents”. And as a direct consequence of that, the west is plagued by an over abundance of stuck-up bitches. Most men raised in the West act like slack-jawed idiots around women and try to hit on anything that moves. Is this such as an ideal scenario? The peak of civilization?

Let’s get real for a second.

Men are responsible for the wealth and progress of any society. Men build roads, bridges and cars, men advance humanity’s understanding of the hard sciences (even when the other gender is allowed equal participation, as is the case in this country). Men, not women. Men produce wealth, women produce babies. Alright?

If you’re incapable of seeing reality for what it is, then at least leave other people (and their cultures) alone when they try to do things more efficiently. Not everyone can afford to put up with the bullshit that we do here in the West.

In general, a society becomes more open-minded and liberal as it’s living conditions improve. Don’t expect people living in hellholes to adhere to any ideology besides darwinism. The best way to help them is to let them help themselves. Historically, this has been achieved through free and unfettered trade. Not economic sanctions. Not regime change.[/quote]

What leaves me slack jawed is that you actually thought this out before you said it. Let pick an example, shall we: [quote]Western women certainly do not walk around wearing “fucking tents”. And as a direct consequence of that, the west is plagued by an over abundance of stuck-up bitches.[/quote]

Ok, so lets look at this statement. Western women do not wear Burkahs therefore the “west” has a disease like abundance of women who are stuck up.
No burkahs = lots of stuck up women.

To break this down further: (1) Burkahs stop women from being stuck up (2) women in the west do not where them. Therefore burkahs prevent stuck-upness.

I cannot comprehend how many logical fallacies this line of reasoning includes…Let’s see: (1) There is a woman on the escalator (2) she is not wereing a burkah therefore she is a stuck up bitch.

I cannot stop laughing. You have got to be kidding me. Do you apply this version of logic to everything?

44

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:

A lot of stuff that could only be written by a bitter, little man.
[/quote]

That was just sad.

45

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sloth wrote:
You seem to have a real hard time with scale and proportion.

I make my living knowing how to judge scale and porportion. This is what makes me think you’re a bit touched.

You have no real way to measure the scale of Islamic vs. Christian attrocities so what you say is nothing more than speculation. Plus you sound like a typical ingorant American who has never been anywhere or witnessed anything other than your own culture. You have no frame of reference other than how you judge American Christians.[/quote]

You call me touched? Brother, you wouldn’t last a day with a pair of tits and a vagina, in much of the mid-east. If you were an atheist, christian, or Jew you’d feel like you were walking on eggshells. Trying not to do or say anything that might offend the muslim majority. And, god help you if you tried to deconvert in much of the mid-east. You’d beg, borrow, swim, and crawl your ass out of there.

Ignorant American? No, you’re the ignorant one here. What’s sad is that your ignorance downplays the extent of oppression and islamic totalitarianism throughout much of the middle-east. Of course, you’re not the one facing death as a heretic, or because you removed your burqa in front of men.

46

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
The problem arrives when people compare christianity anno 1500 with islam anno 2006… This is not in any way a valid comparison and only strenghten the opposition… :slight_smile:

How does this not compare? Pretty much all major religions are intolerant of others, and have murdered each other with extreme fucking prejudice for thousands of years.

The difference is when people get educated, get a decent standard of living, and get tired of the bloodshed.

Christianity and Islam are exactly the same as far as using the sword to spread their beliefs. There are plenty of deaths on every God’s behalf all the time. You’re fooling yourself to think otherwise.[/quote]

And we’ve damn sure seen blood on the hands of atheistic regimes. Here’s the deal. This is 2006. This isn’t the Salem Witch trials, the inquisition, the conquistadors, or the jailing of Galileo. It’s the here and now. The present. Are we clear?

Oh sure, you can point out crackpots and pockets of extremists in any group. But, the fact remains, Islam in much of the Mid-east is absolutely brutal and oppresive. Wide-spread.

I am so sick of hearing this arguement. Today the Pope’s greatest threat are words you can reject or cling to. There aren’t widespread riots, arsons, etc. because Jesus got mocked, yet again, on South Park. “Buddy Jesus” hasn’t sent christians on rampages throughout…Well, anywhere?

Why in the hell can we not have a discussion concerning the lack of basic human rights, throughout much of the mide-east today, without someone trying to steer the discussion away? Seriously, why do some want to head off discussions about, for example, widespread brutal oppression and violence against women? Does it make one more “worldy.” More appreciate of cultural differences?

47

[quote]Nominal Prospect wrote:
So let me ask you: is divorce court, alimony, and feminism so much better? Is it somehow more civilized to shit on men than it is to shit on women?

Western women certainly do not walk around wearing “fucking tents”. And as a direct consequence of that, the west is plagued by an over abundance of stuck-up bitches. Most men raised in the West act like slack-jawed idiots around women and try to hit on anything that moves. Is this such as an ideal scenario? The peak of civilization?

Let’s get real for a second.

Men are responsible for the wealth and progress of any society. Men build roads, bridges and cars, men advance humanity’s understanding of the hard sciences (even when the other gender is allowed equal participation, as is the case in this country). Men, not women. Men produce wealth, women produce babies. Alright?

If you’re incapable of seeing reality for what it is, then at least leave other people (and their cultures) alone when they try to do things more efficiently. Not everyone can afford to put up with the bullshit that we do here in the West.

In general, a society becomes more open-minded and liberal as it’s living conditions improve. Don’t expect people living in hellholes to adhere to any ideology besides darwinism. The best way to help them is to let them help themselves. Historically, this has been achieved through free and unfettered trade. Not economic sanctions. Not regime change.[/quote]

I have no response. None needed. Ladies, any thoughts?

48

[quote]Sloth wrote:
You call me touched? Brother, you wouldn’t last a day with a pair of tits and a vagina, in much of the mid-east. If you were an atheist, christian, or Jew you’d feel like you were walking on eggshells. Trying not to do or say anything that might offend the muslim majority. And, god help you if you tried to deconvert in much of the mid-east. You’d beg, borrow, swim, and crawl your ass out of there.

Ignorant American? No, you’re the ignorant one here. What’s sad is that your ignorance downplays the extent of oppression and islamic totalitarianism throughout much of the middle-east. Of course, you’re not the one facing death as a heretic, or because you removed your burqa in front of men.

[/quote]
I’m not your brother so don’t refer to me in the fraternal sense.

Nowhere have I denied your allegations. What I stand by is that you do not know nor have you any way of knowing the actual situation. I agree there are troubling issues that I see. What I do not like is your classification of Islam–Islam is not exactly how you portray it to be. But I don’t blame you for your ignorance I blame where you get your information. I know it’s not from the “horse’s mouth”.

You have probably never even spoken with an Islamic woman. I live in a city with a very large population of Somaili Muslims some of whom I have had the pleasure of working with and they still find it OK in the US to practice their religion–hijab and all. BTW, the “burqa” is only worn in Afghanistan–this is another one of your (and others’) ignorances. Every local/culture wears something a little different.

49

[quote]I’m not your brother so don’t refer to me in the fraternal sense.

Nowhere have I denied your allegations. What I stand by is that you do not know nor have you any way of knowing the actual situation. I agree there are troubling issues that I see. What I do not like is your classification of Islam–Islam is not exactly how you portray it to be. But I don’t blame you for your ignorance I blame where you get your information. I know it’s not from the “horse’s mouth”.

You have probably never even spoken with an Islamic woman. I live in a city with a very large population of Somaili Muslims some of whom I have had the pleasure of working with and they still find it OK in the US to practice their religion–hijab and all. BTW, the “burqa” is only worn in Afghanistan–this is another one of your (and others’) ignorances. Every local/culture wears something a little different.[/quote]

Damn, he’s worked with Somali muslims who defected to the U.S. the escape their oppresive regimes. My “expert” detector just went off. I have been to a mosque, can I be a ME expert too!!

50

[quote]pat36 wrote:
I’m not your brother so don’t refer to me in the fraternal sense.

Nowhere have I denied your allegations. What I stand by is that you do not know nor have you any way of knowing the actual situation. I agree there are troubling issues that I see. What I do not like is your classification of Islam–Islam is not exactly how you portray it to be. But I don’t blame you for your ignorance I blame where you get your information. I know it’s not from the “horse’s mouth”.

You have probably never even spoken with an Islamic woman. I live in a city with a very large population of Somaili Muslims some of whom I have had the pleasure of working with and they still find it OK in the US to practice their religion–hijab and all. BTW, the “burqa” is only worn in Afghanistan–this is another one of your (and others’) ignorances. Every local/culture wears something a little different.

Damn, he’s worked with Somali muslims who defected to the U.S. the escape their oppresive regimes. My “expert” detector just went off. I have been to a mosque, can I be a ME expert too!![/quote]

DUMBASS, they didn’t defect for religious reasons. 1 + 1 = 2.

Islam was your original complaint–now it’s oppressive governments? And if they were so oppressed by their religion why do they still practice it. You cannot compare Somalia’s government with a religion practiced by over 1 billion people. They were most certainly not under sharia law.

51

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sloth wrote:
I’m not your brother so don’t refer to me in the fraternal sense.

Nowhere have I denied your allegations. What I stand by is that you do not know nor have you any way of knowing the actual situation. I agree there are troubling issues that I see. What I do not like is your classification of Islam–Islam is not exactly how you portray it to be. But I don’t blame you for your ignorance I blame where you get your information. I know it’s not from the “horse’s mouth”.

You have probably never even spoken with an Islamic woman. I live in a city with a very large population of Somaili Muslims some of whom I have had the pleasure of working with and they still find it OK in the US to practice their religion–hijab and all. BTW, the “burqa” is only worn in Afghanistan–this is another one of your (and others’) ignorances. Every local/culture wears something a little different.[/quote]

Um, the abuses and oppression are widely documented through intternational human rights groups, women’s groups, et. I didn’t pull this out of the air. Don’t sit there and tell me about the wonders of the burqa.

Hey genius, I used the burqa as an example of hijab (women’s clothing requirements), because it’s the most widely known of the hijab. I could name the pak-chadar, ayab, dupatta, chunari, or tudung (all hijab, worn in different muslim societies). However, those terms would have went past most people’s heads. By the way, the use of the burqa can be found in India and Pakistan.

Wow, muslim women in the US choose to wear hijab?! Um, we’re not talking about the US, we’re talking about the Mid-east, I made that clear enough. In much of the Mid-east, hijab is government and/or socially enforced. To the extent that violence and ostracism against women are rampant. I did raise the point that some of this oppression and brutality has found it’s way into muslim communities, in Europe.

Next time you want to debate me on the treatment of women throughout the Islamic Mid-East, don’t share your US experience about women who have a choice to wear hajib.

52

By the way, you “don’t deny my allegations,” yet you’re calling me ignorant and debating me on this? Huh?

53

[quote]Sloth wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
The problem arrives when people compare christianity anno 1500 with islam anno 2006… This is not in any way a valid comparison and only strenghten the opposition… :slight_smile:

How does this not compare? Pretty much all major religions are intolerant of others, and have murdered each other with extreme fucking prejudice for thousands of years.

The difference is when people get educated, get a decent standard of living, and get tired of the bloodshed.

Christianity and Islam are exactly the same as far as using the sword to spread their beliefs. There are plenty of deaths on every God’s behalf all the time. You’re fooling yourself to think otherwise.

And we’ve damn sure seen blood on the hands of atheistic regimes. Here’s the deal. This is 2006. This isn’t the Salem Witch trials, the inquisition, the conquistadors, or the jailing of Galileo. It’s the here and now. The present. Are we clear?
[/quote]

No, “we” are not. What I’m saying is that men of all religions are corruptible, and they’ve all commited heinous crimes against humanity in God’s name. Islam is where Christianity was a thousand years ago, when being a heretic got you killed.

The disregard of religion in favor of things like the social contract and seperation of Church and State are what have gotten us away from that. So point your holy finger somewhere else.

See what I said above. There would have been, if this were a different time. Religious zealotry in any form is bad. It was bad when the Catholics did it, and it’s bad now that Muslims are doing it.

First of all, the West only came out of being brutally oppressive to women in the last hundred years. Before that they were all second class citizens and had no rights.

Secondly, all I’m trying to do is break down that stupid Christian right ideal that Islam is somehow a worse religion than any of the other ones. They are worse right now granted, but if we can get them to move away from theocratic states and into more democratic ones, than that’s a good thing.

However, you can’t force democracy on people. This is where it gets tricky, and I don’t know what the best route is, be it subversion by the CIA (although South America hates us because we did this to them) or subversion through the internet and the spread of knowledge and ideas. Eventually, the Islamic states may have their own Enlightenment…I don’t know if there is a way to force it.

54

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
Sloth wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:
Adamsson wrote:
The problem arrives when people compare christianity anno 1500 with islam anno 2006… This is not in any way a valid comparison and only strenghten the opposition… :slight_smile:

How does this not compare? Pretty much all major religions are intolerant of others, and have murdered each other with extreme fucking prejudice for thousands of years.

The difference is when people get educated, get a decent standard of living, and get tired of the bloodshed.

Christianity and Islam are exactly the same as far as using the sword to spread their beliefs. There are plenty of deaths on every God’s behalf all the time. You’re fooling yourself to think otherwise.

And we’ve damn sure seen blood on the hands of atheistic regimes. Here’s the deal. This is 2006. This isn’t the Salem Witch trials, the inquisition, the conquistadors, or the jailing of Galileo. It’s the here and now. The present. Are we clear?

No, “we” are not. What I’m saying is that men of all religions are corruptible, and they’ve all commited heinous crimes against humanity in God’s name. Islam is where Christianity was a thousand years ago, when being a heretic got you killed.

The disregard of religion in favor of things like the social contract and seperation of Church and State are what have gotten us away from that. So point your holy finger somewhere else.

I am so sick of hearing this arguement. Today the Pope’s greatest threat are words you can reject or cling to. There aren’t widespread riots, arsons, etc. because Jesus got mocked, yet again, on South Park. “Buddy Jesus” hasn’t sent christians on rampages throughout…Well, anywhere?

See what I said above. There would have been, if this were a different time. Religious zealotry in any form is bad. It was bad when the Catholics did it, and it’s bad now that Muslims are doing it.

Why in the hell can we not have a discussion concerning the lack of basic human rights, throughout much of the mide-east today, without someone trying to steer the discussion away? Seriously, why do some want to head off discussions about, for example, widespread brutal oppression and violence against women? Does it make one more “worldy.” More appreciate of cultural differences?

First of all, the West only came out of being brutally oppressive to women in the last hundred years. Before that they were all second class citizens and had no rights.

Secondly, all I’m trying to do is break down that stupid Christian right ideal that Islam is somehow a worse religion than any of the other ones. They are worse right now granted, but if we can get them to move away from theocratic states and into more democratic ones, than that’s a good thing.

However, you can’t force democracy on people. This is where it gets tricky, and I don’t know what the best route is, be it subversion by the CIA (although South America hates us because we did this to them) or subversion through the internet and the spread of knowledge and ideas. Eventually, the Islamic states may have their own Enlightenment…I don’t know if there is a way to force it. [/quote]

Not once have I advocated force in this discussion to, err, moderate Islam’s approach to human rights throughtout the mideast. I’m simply restating the types of barbarism widely reported through a multitude of human rights groups, orginizations, etc.

I’ll give folks a good place to start. Pull up research concerning the treatment of women in Pakistan, for a start. The domestic violence and sexual assualt figures are mind boggling.

55

Mister or Maam’, whichever the case may be, i have read all of your mindless rants on some pretty heavy topics, you seem well at ease with the idiots who speak Arabic, and beleive that the year is still 1200 AD, rest your mouth, please, stop littering the board with your presence, scale

-( and by the way smart guy-) Proportion is a word, and is used as an indicator of an objects size and weight, porportion is some word you just made up, there are few truly innocent any people in this world but it sure as hell isn’t the bullshit activists who beleive in the stuff these extremist assholes do … thankyou

I make my living knowing how to judge scale and porportion. This is what makes me think you’re a bit touched.

You have no real way to measure the scale of Islamic vs. Christian attrocities so what you say is nothing more than speculation. Plus you sound like a typical ingorant American who has never been anywhere or witnessed anything other than your own culture. You have no frame of reference other than how you judge American Christians.[/quote]

56

And Don’t get me wrong No personal grudge against you, because i don’t know you. but I really think you are off mark

By this logic you would also have “little repect” for Christianity or Judaism. Both religions have been around longer than Islam and therefore have commited way more attrocities against civilization.

Ho, hum.
[/quote]

57

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

No, “we” are not. What I’m saying is that men of all religions are corruptible, and they’ve all commited heinous crimes against humanity in God’s name. Islam is where Christianity was a thousand years ago, when being a heretic got you killed.

[/quote]

Based on this statement, if true, only religious men are corruptible. Are non-religious people non-corruptible? Or non-religious people are corrupt by default and therefore not further corruptible? Are crimes against humanity only committed in God’s name or is it possible some non-religious people commit crimes against humanity?
I sense you don’t like religion at all. Yet, I am guessing by your name that you support Notre Dame’s football team. The most Catholic of all the big schools. Are you shooting for crimes against humanity toward other teams on the football field? A little crusade action going on? Am I asking too many questions? Are my questions gay?

58

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
DUMBASS, they didn’t defect for religious reasons. 1 + 1 = 2.

Islam was your original complaint–now it’s oppressive governments? And if they were so oppressed by their religion why do they still practice it. You cannot compare Somalia’s government with a religion practiced by over 1 billion people. They were most certainly not under sharia law.[/quote]

I never said why they defected, because I have no idea. Pictures of Somalia make it look like a shithole; I?d leave it too, if it is like those pictures. I wasn?t talking about oppressive governments either. I was talking about arguing your case based on limited experience with muslims who live in the U.S and ignoring other facts that seem glaring about the middle east.

59

[quote]pat36 wrote:
FightinIrish26 wrote:

No, “we” are not. What I’m saying is that men of all religions are corruptible, and they’ve all commited heinous crimes against humanity in God’s name. Islam is where Christianity was a thousand years ago, when being a heretic got you killed.

Based on this statement, if true, only religious men are corruptible. Are non-religious people non-corruptible? Or non-religious people are corrupt by default and therefore not further corruptible? Are crimes against humanity only committed in God’s name or is it possible some non-religious people commit crimes against humanity?
[/quote]

Of course non religious people are corruptible. I don’t think religion has much to do with it- men are fallible, and power corrupts. A Christian will likely be corrupted as easily as a Jew or an atheist or a buddhist. Every man is capable of commiting crimes against humanity- this is what I’m saying. It ain’t just an Islamic thing.

I have many, many personal issues with orgnanized religion. I’m a Catholic depending what day it is, although I think the Vatican is stuck the Dark Ages.

And no, my name actually has nothing to do with Notre Dame, although I do like them. More because I’m Irish and…well, like to fight.

60

[quote]Splinter36 wrote:
Mister or Maam’, whichever the case may be, i have read all of your mindless rants on some pretty heavy topics, you seem well at ease with the idiots who speak Arabic, and beleive that the year is still 1200 AD, rest your mouth, please, stop littering the board with your presence, scale

-( and by the way smart guy-) Proportion is a word, and is used as an indicator of an objects size and weight, porportion is some word you just made up, there are few truly innocent any people in this world but it sure as hell isn’t the bullshit activists who beleive in the stuff these extremist assholes do … thankyou

I make my living knowing how to judge scale and porportion. This is what makes me think you’re a bit touched.

You have no real way to measure the scale of Islamic vs. Christian attrocities so what you say is nothing more than speculation. Plus you sound like a typical ingorant American who has never been anywhere or witnessed anything other than your own culture. You have no frame of reference other than how you judge American Christians.

[/quote]

Ummmm…yeah–I was copying his spelling of the word…I can’t spell very well but I can count. Thank you for pointing out my spelling mistake. At least we now know you are intelligent enough to spell a word.

I think I have more experience knowing Islam than the idiot who started the rant about Islam. He has not refuted his ignorance of the subject. He just continues to rant about how women are treated, blah, blah.

Please correct that spelling mistake. I beg of you!