Canada

Sorry SCC, but most of the things said by JP Bear and J Boogie are fairly accurate about Canada.
Truth be told:

~We have a Pathetic military. One of the smallest and most underfunded armed forces of UN nations. Also, past military contributions (although commendable) are greatly exaggerated by most canadians. BTW, the reason we have been so fortunate not to need a respectable military?? Our ally to the south has one of the most powerful and technologicall advanced armed forces in the world. Allowing us the luxury of sitting back and criticizing there military choices while we throw the extra saved money at unnecessary social programs… Just because you feel that you and your friends would enlist if the need be doesn’t mean the rest of population feels the same way. I think that extremely low public support for military funding speaks are little stronger than the convictions of your and you and your 4 buddies.

~Our medicare system is NOT working and is ironically, exploited the most by the people who contribute to it the least or not at all. (ie. Crackheads and gangbangers). The operation of hospitals and clinics costs TONS OF MONEY. If you don’t financially contribute to it, then theoretically, why are you entitled to the privileges??

~There is NOT endless opportunity for wealth in Canada -unless your a high ranking politician like maybe, i dunno, the Prime Minister. In that case, Canadians will look the other way and pretend to ignore the hundred million $$ financial scandals and elect them to another 4 year term. For the average middle-class ambitious individual getting into tax brackets that strip you of nearly 48% of your hard earned money can really take the wind out of your entrepreneurial sails.

~Our economy is NOT as rock solid as some would like to believe. An economy almost solely built on natural resources and not on the formation of national and international business can only go so far.

~Most Canadians ARE jealous of Americans. Their supposed “hate” is just a manifestation of their insecurity complex.

~Most Canadians DON’T want equal income distribution you say SCC? Well again maybe you and your friends dont, but the majority of Canadians are all for further unionization of all types of busineses. Only a small few and maybe the province of Alberta, support free enterprise. The other 85% want to be paid more to do nothing. And when that doesn’t work they protest again “capitalist injustices.” Wake up and smell the socialism my friend.

I don’t enjoy saying negative things about my country but they need to be realized before they can be changed. Living in Canada does offer some advantages and I feel fortunate to be born into a developed country. However, Canada has some serious national issues and glossing it over with “blind pride” will not make those problems go away.

I have lived in Seattle, WA and Vancouver, BC. I’m sure the cities aren’t as different as Seattle and New York, because West Coast vs. East Coast is a much bigger cultural jump. That’s the difference of 3000 miles vs. 150 miles.

However, they are different.

I used to shock my coworkers around Seattle with tales of Canadian sin and debauchery since in Canada the age of consent is 14, the drinking age is 19, they show swearing and nudity on television, the strippers are naked, not topless, Vancouver has operating marijuana cafes, absinthe is legal, you know, wholesome stuff like that.

But sure, there are more similarities than differences. That doesn’t mean that those differences don’t make all the difference, so to speak.

They’ve done polls, so here is a summary. If Canada was part of America, 20% of the population would vote for Bush. 60% of Canadians favored John Kerry in these polls. Bill Clinton is very popular in Canada. Thousands of people turned out for his book tour appearances when he hit Canada. Lots of camping over night. Canada funds the Michael Moore movies. The liberal “Michael Moore” “Bill Clinton” type thinking that ruffles a lot of feathers on these forums is very Canadian. It’s how most, not all, but I would guess 75%, of Canadians think. The members of that other group make themselves pretty obvious.

Here’s a shocking statement: There’s way more to life than making lots of money and saving a lot on your taxes.

Wow. Great topic.

Some English-speaking Canadians hate Americans? That much?

I was under the impression that only French-Canadians, and most Quebecers, thought like that.

Wasnt South Parks “Blame Canada” song and the Canada-bashing wave, based almost solely on by big stereotypes… precisely because English-speaking Canada and Americans are so much alike*?

(* Now before starting a flame war, please bear with me. For the most part, besides hockey, English-speaking Canadians do not watch Canadian TV, they watch CNN, Fox, etc. They have similar lifestyles, religious beliefs, values, priorities and aspirations. Do they buy Canadian, except the beer ;0) or do they buy from the biggest American franchises? Yup. Buying habits are very similar to American ones. Etc.)

Of course, everything above that is valid for English-speaking Canada almost never applies to French-speaking Quebecers. Either that, or something in the Quebec culture that is essentially Anti-American Culture. Distinct indeed. Maybe too much. Some almost make it a point of honor or being Anti-American all the way. People booing the American Anthem at hockey games during the Iraq war period is not something to be proud of. At all.

Some consider an unauthorized invasion of a foreign land unworthy of praise and pride as well.

Perhaps it was the wrong forum to vent in, but I don’t believe anyone has mentioned pride over booing.

SCC sorry bud but the states do not need us in the least except maybe for oil, which they already have right to, we in the other hand get most of our goods from the states and more importantly they purchase over 70 percent of our exports, thats a pretty diversive market share dont u think? what do u think would be the result if Americans quit buying Canadian? yeah exactly we’re fucked, conversely we make up possibly a fifth (im being generous, because i dont have the figure in front of me) of their export share, who stands the most to lose? pretty simple math, even molson is no longer Canadian

Sigh, you can’t establish importance to each other simply by size of trade. The size difference of the countries certainly factors into that.

Rightly or wrongly the world is heading into free trade and increased interdependency on trading partners. This is where we are going.

Arguments about who needs who more or who is more powerful are useless. If you want to start trying to discuss these issues rationally at least compare things based on population sizes or GDP fractions.

Did anybody catch the Sunday Edition this morning on CBC? There was a discussion of Canada’s place in the world featuring a professor from Cambridge University. It offered some good insight.

Ok here’s a question for you guys.
Should Canada join the US missile defense shield?

JPBear
Let me give you the typical american response that you are looking for:

“If you dont like canada get the F out. Whose stopping you? Damn your passport is good to move nearly anywhere on the globe. Go ahead pack your bags & hate and be gone.”

I mean there is nothing wrong with hating your own country (actually there is) or whatever but hey if you dont like it seriously stop bitching about it and do something (like move).

[quote]samsmarts wrote:

"If you dont like canada get the F out. Whose stopping you? Damn your passport is good to move nearly anywhere on the globe. [/quote]

Oh wow, thanks for helping me out there. I can live and work anywhere in the world with nothing but my little old passport? Neato! I am so glad you let me in on this.

I cannot believe some of the rips being thrown at my country on this thread - especially from those FORTUNATE enough to have been born (and live) in Canada. I’m not ignorant emough to believe that improvements cannot (or should not) be made in many areas, but I am definately very proud of my nation and what the AVERAGE (LIBERAL) Canadian stands for.

Case in point: I just returned from Chicago where I read in bold letters across the back window of one of those pick-up/SUV combos “Gun control is using both hands!” and had one of those novelty license plates that read “I don’t dial 9-1-1, I dial .357”. The average Canadian (while disliking our messed-up inefficient gun registry) believes that this guy is an idiot - this makes me proud (and fortunate) to be surrounded by such level-headed people.

Sure, our Health Care system needs some work, but I REALLY appreciate the fact that I don’t have to worry about: a) the quality of care I receive when I’m forced to go to a certain private clinic (read: profit is their ONLY goal) because my insurance provider (read: profit is their ONLY goal) mandates that is who I have to go to; b) being considered ‘fortunate’ by many people because I can even afford health insurance (as some Americans are); c) encountering Dr. Nick Riviera (for you Simpson’s fans; his ilk is far more likely to be a product of the U.S. Health Care system); d) how much $ I have to pay the hospital for the upcoming delivery of my 2nd child - 2 years ago my wife had a C-section and 4 days stay in a private room…total cost to me: $229 (includes parking onsite). Admittedly, I pay an extra few dollars on my paycheque to help cover a ‘full private room’ for just these occurences, but it’s far better than any similar scenario down south.

I don’t really bitch about my taxes being too high - I see the overall greater Quality of Life in Canada for the average citizen to be a fair trade-off. If everyone has a better social support system then I believe that it’s likely that eveyone will benefit. Judging by the number of very large new houses with pricey SUVs and luxury cars in the driveways that I see going up in my town, I would say that we average Canadians are not overly burdened by our “oppresive” tax system. When you balance out what our Q of L is with most Americans, I don’t necessarily agree that they benefit from having more left over on their paycheque.

Maybe the reason why conservatives have never really been able to gain and hold power and influence in Canada is because the vast majority of Canadians are too smart for that. It’s not all about making enough money that I have to move to a ‘gated community’ in order to feel safe in my neighbouhood - that’s if I CAN make enough to move there. For every American trying to get rich, there are a dozen more trying to step over him in order to do the same - in fact, it’s a requirement. The severe focus on “all things capitalist” in the U.S. means that more and more wealth ends up in fewer hands…and those on the short end of the stick become worse and worse off.

I need to get some sleep, but one final point - JPBear said that Canadians “hate” Americans because they are jealous - with the connotation being that we are envious of all their power, military might, whatever. That’s ridiculous - this is just like the little girl who says that all the other little girls “hate” her because she’s pretty. They don’t…they dislike her because she’s a jerk.

BTW - I don’t hate Americans and find much in common with many. Maybe that’s why some of their ideals and characteristics annoy the hell out of me…because at first they all seem so normal and rational…

[quote]JPBear wrote:

Oh wow, thanks for helping me out there. I can live and work anywhere in the world with nothing but my little old passport? Neato! I am so glad you let me in on this.

[/quote]

Well now that you know the most well kept secret in the world, when do you plan on getting out of the hell you were unfortunatley born in?

[quote]feds wrote:
I cannot believe some of the rips being thrown at my country on this thread - especially from those FORTUNATE enough to have been born (and live) in Canada. I’m not ignorant emough to believe that improvements cannot (or should not) be made in many areas, but I am definately very proud of my nation and what the AVERAGE (LIBERAL) Canadian stands for.

Case in point: I just returned from Chicago where I read in bold letters across the back window of one of those pick-up/SUV combos “Gun control is using both hands!” and had one of those novelty license plates that read “I don’t dial 9-1-1, I dial .357”. The average Canadian (while disliking our messed-up inefficient gun registry) believes that this guy is an idiot - this makes me proud (and fortunate) to be surrounded by such level-headed people.

Sure, our Health Care system needs some work, but I REALLY appreciate the fact that I don’t have to worry about: a) the quality of care I receive when I’m forced to go to a certain private clinic (read: profit is their ONLY goal) because my insurance provider (read: profit is their ONLY goal) mandates that is who I have to go to; b) being considered ‘fortunate’ by many people because I can even afford health insurance (as some Americans are); c) encountering Dr. Nick Riviera (for you Simpson’s fans; his ilk is far more likely to be a product of the U.S. Health Care system); d) how much $ I have to pay the hospital for the upcoming delivery of my 2nd child - 2 years ago my wife had a C-section and 4 days stay in a private room…total cost to me: $229 (includes parking onsite). Admittedly, I pay an extra few dollars on my paycheque to help cover a ‘full private room’ for just these occurences, but it’s far better than any similar scenario down south.

I don’t really bitch about my taxes being too high - I see the overall greater Quality of Life in Canada for the average citizen to be a fair trade-off. If everyone has a better social support system then I believe that it’s likely that eveyone will benefit. Judging by the number of very large new houses with pricey SUVs and luxury cars in the driveways that I see going up in my town, I would say that we average Canadians are not overly burdened by our “oppresive” tax system. When you balance out what our Q of L is with most Americans, I don’t necessarily agree that they benefit from having more left over on their paycheque.

Maybe the reason why conservatives have never really been able to gain and hold power and influence in Canada is because the vast majority of Canadians are too smart for that. It’s not all about making enough money that I have to move to a ‘gated community’ in order to feel safe in my neighbouhood - that’s if I CAN make enough to move there. For every American trying to get rich, there are a dozen more trying to step over him in order to do the same - in fact, it’s a requirement. The severe focus on “all things capitalist” in the U.S. means that more and more wealth ends up in fewer hands…and those on the short end of the stick become worse and worse off.

I need to get some sleep, but one final point - JPBear said that Canadians “hate” Americans because they are jealous - with the connotation being that we are envious of all their power, military might, whatever. That’s ridiculous - this is just like the little girl who says that all the other little girls “hate” her because she’s pretty. They don’t…they dislike her because she’s a jerk.

BTW - I don’t hate Americans and find much in common with many. Maybe that’s why some of their ideals and characteristics annoy the hell out of me…because at first they all seem so normal and rational…

[/quote]

Not that I really want to have a discussion with someone who uses an episode of The Simpsons as evidence, but here are a few thoughts.

Canada spends more on its system than other nations while ranking among the lowest in several key indicators, such as access to physicians, quality of medical equipment, and key health outcomes. But, since you seem to prefer anecdotal evidence, how about this: Ever waited in an emergency room for more than 5 hours? Ever known someone in desperate need of surgery who was placed on an 8 month waiting list? Ever been misdiagnosed, or accidentally given the wrong prescription? Ever had to see four doctors before finding one that can diagnose you? Ever waited 10 months for a specialist to call you to book your appointment for six months down the road? Ever had to pay out of pocket to travel and see that specialist? Ever waited a year for an MRI? Ever had a doctor tell you your broken arm was tennis elbow, refuse to give you an X-Ray, have it heal improperly, be told your arm will need to be opened up and bone fragments ground off in order to relieve the pain, then be placed on a two year waiting list for the surgery? Think about it for a minute, I’m sure you can come up with a bunch of stories just from the people you personally know. How about this one: What is the best way to sell a Critical Illness insurance policy to a Canadian? (The type that will pay you a six digit lump sum amount if you are diagnosed with any of a list of illnesses). Ask them how they would be able to afford to go to the U.S. for treatment if they don’t have the policy. It works like a charm. I know this because I used to work in the business. The funniest thing is, the same person who will pay monthly premiums for this peace of mind will not hesitate to tell you how wonderful Canada is for having universal health care, and how much they disagree with a “two-tier” system.

How much does all this fun cost us? It’s free right? It grows on that big money tree right?
The average province now spends over 50% of its tax revenues just on health care. In most cases, this is just keeping the system above water. Health spending is rising faster than GDP growth. It’s rising faster than tax revenues. It’s rising faster than all other forms of public spending. On top of this, several provinces (including yours and mine) also charge monthly individual health care premiums, which might as well just be a tax as they are not optional. For my husband and myself that is another $100 a month, on top of our taxes. The truth is we pay for service just as Americans do.

And please explain something to me. Let’s say I needed heart surgery. Let’s say that I am willing to pay out of my pocket for surgery at a private clinic, over and above my tax dollars and insurance premiums. Why is this illegal? Wouldn’t it solve two problems, taking me off the waiting list and thereby shortening it for others, and get me treatment faster? Why is this so wrong? The truth is the average liberal Canadian would rather see everyone die on waiting lists than see anything that might be perceived as unfair. This is the Canadian mindset: equal is the same thing as fair, fair is the same thing as equal and if one person is going to suffer and die than we are all going to suffer and die. Gotta be fair. Can’t take care of ourselves right?

As for your ridiculous “profit is their ONLY goal” statements, do you really and truly believe that every American doctor, nurse, health specialist, and pharmaceutical scientist will wake up each morning and go to work motivated strictly by money and nothing else? Do you truly believe their Canadian counterparts do it out of the goodness of their heart? Why do Canadian doctors and nurses routinely go on strike and fight bitterly for wage increases? Above all, why do I have to point this out to you? Do you not see this? I think you need to turn off the CBC for a while and start to think for yourself.

I agree with JPBEAR 100%, stop listening to bullshit from the liberal gov’t (CBC)its bullshit, bush USA and harper for CANADA, thats the way things would make this a better place.

Why do so many Canadian nurses flock to the U.S.? My wife is an RN, and about 50% of her coworkers are Canadian.

Hey, the fact that we have our own problems, doesn’t mean the entire country sucks.

As with any country, we have our strong points and our weak points. In general though, the Canadian public values social programs more so than the American public.

It’s a simple thing known as democracy and majority rule. Either argue well and change peoples minds or STFU and live with the decisions of the majority.

Hmm, is that an American sentiment?

[quote]vroom wrote:
Sigh, you can’t establish importance to each other simply by size of trade. The size difference of the countries certainly factors into that.

Rightly or wrongly the world is heading into free trade and increased interdependency on trading partners. This is where we are going.

Arguments about who needs who more or who is more powerful are useless. If you want to start trying to discuss these issues rationally at least compare things based on population sizes or GDP fractions.[/quote]

vroom is right. Canada is smaller, but it’s an important market for certain industries.

Also, generally, I worked with a bunch of Canadians in Boston, and they were all nice folks. A bit liberal for my tastes, but they fit in in Boston better than I did on that score. A couple were actually very conservative, but they were in the minority. They say “eh” a lot, and “aboot,” even though they don’t like to admit it. They like to brag about their beer and call our beer water – and they can generally hold their own in terms of drinking it.

Politically Canada really is a lot like the U.S., but in Canada the population is more concentrated in the liberal areas, so the conservatives out west find it very hard to get a majority. So, at a very basic level, Canada represents what the U.S. would be like if New York had as many electoral votes as California has, and Texas had fewer.

Of course, the fracturing of the conservative party in the years after the Mulroney government didn’t help things – hopefully they will continue to work together, as it looked like they were starting to do right before the last election.

I’ve been to Vancouver, Quebec City and Montreal; all were very nice places – I plan to visit Toronto – in the summer that is. You hosers can keep that Canadian winter to yourselves, eh.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

vroom is right. Canada is smaller, but it’s an important market for certain industries.

Also, generally, I worked with a bunch of Canadians in Boston, and they were all nice folks. A bit liberal for my tastes, but they fit in in Boston better than I did on that score. A couple were actually very conservative, but they were in the minority. They say “eh” a lot, and “aboot,” even though they don’t like to admit it. They like to brag about their beer and call our beer water – and they can generally hold their own in terms of drinking it.

Politically Canada really is a lot like the U.S., but in Canada the population is more concentrated in the liberal areas, so the conservatives out west find it very hard to get a majority. So, at a very basic level, Canada represents what the U.S. would be like if New York had as many electoral votes as California has, and Texas had fewer.

Of course, the fracturing of the conservative party in the years after the Mulroney government didn’t help things – hopefully they will continue to work together, as it looked like they were starting to do right before the last election.

I’ve been to Vancouver, Quebec City and Montreal; all were very nice places – I plan to visit Toronto – in the summer that is. You hosers can keep that Canadian winter to yourselves, eh.[/quote]

I know you were just throwing in some casual observations, and I don’t really want to argue with the smartest person on this forum, but I have to point a few things out.

Imagine if you were not able to vote for your president, or your senators, or your governor. What if senate appointments were taken care of by the president that you never got to vote for? What if 60% of the people around you voted for Nader? Does this feel at all like America to you?

Yes, Canadians are nice. There is no debate about that. Every friend and family member that I know and love are Canadians. On the same note, when I went to Omaha people were very nice. When I was in Chicago, people were fairly cranky. What does that prove?

Yes, Canadian cities are nice. So is France, Sweden, Egypt, and many parts of Cuba that I could visit. An African safari would be a great time I?m sure. But what does that have to do with anything we were discussing?

Just a point of interest (I don?t blame you for not following Canadian politics that closely) The Progressive Conservative Party and the Canadian Alliance (Reform) party were two very different movements. In an unbelievably diplomatic turn of events, not to mention the years of tireless effort from some of the countries most visionary and selfless individuals, the two bitter rivals found common ground and created an entirely new party called the Conservative Party of Canada. The new party was created before our last election.

As a fellow Canadian, I have to agree with everything that JPBear has said about Canada. Even one of our member’s of parliament (Carolyn Parrish) continues to publicly insult our American neighbours. Most of her critism is toward George Bush, but it is evident that she views anyone with conservative values that way. She is typical of the liberal/politically correct attitudes of most Canadians. She is the one that is intolerant. I live close to her riding, just west of Toronto.
It is disturbing and very disappointing to hear the anti-american rhethoric, and the smug attitudes of Canadians toward the U.S. I consider ourselves very fortunate to be next to the U.S.

JP:

No offense taken. Please disabuse me of any misinformation I have on Canada – my info is based mostly on second-hand info from my Canadian friends, as well as some casual reading. I don’t follow the happenings up there nearly as closely as I do the happenings down here.

However, I do want to point out I was making a very base-level analogy – I know you guys have a parliamentary government that is different in some key respects from our system. Your Supreme Court also has a lot more power to read things into your Charter (I think that’s the right term) than ours does to read things into the Constitution, certain notable exceptions such as Roe v. Wade notwithstanding.

Also, as far as politics goes, I can feel your pain – I said I liked to visit, but I’m not filing a visa application or anything. I’ve lived in Massachusetts and California, and they were quite liberal enough as far as I’m concerned – I wouldn’t want to have a government with the same mindset running the country.

Question for you on the conservative movement. I realize the two parties are very different, but I thought one had broken off back when Mulroney’s government ended, or soon thereafter; in other words, that both had come from 1 conservative party, even though one was thoroughly conservative and mainly in the west, and the other was more of a fiscal conservative party? Is that right?

BB,

For many people, the way you describe it would suffice, but here is a more accurate description. Reform was a grassroots movement started by half a dozen regular people (one of whom I personally know). The brand new party that resulted attracted a wide variety of people. If I had to sum up our first leader Preston Manning with a couple of phrases they would be small “d” democrat, and coalition builder. He managed to make the party relevant to a very diverse group of people simply by making their voice count, and ensuring that it always would. Our party has always had a massive membership that dwarfs that of every other party. At that same time some Progressive Conservatives had become increasingly dissatisfied with their own party and left to join Reform. The vast majority of Reform’s members were never Progressive Conservatives, although many would have previously voted that way. It wasn’t a split at all when you look at it, and those two parties were so vastly different in structure and so many other things that it still astounds me to this day that the merger actually came together. Peter Mackay offering himself up as a human political sacrifice to accomplish this was the most surprising thing I have ever witnessed in politics. And yes you are right, Reform was definitely concentrated in the west although the party it became, the Canadian Alliance, was less so.