Respectfully I disagree here, I see it less from an ‘optimization’ but rather from a medical need/physiological perspective, but admittedly this is not the only way to look at TRT.
To me TRTs primarily role is to restore physiological levels in men suffering from hypogonadism. Physiological levels of freeT in men are somewhere between 12 and 20 ng/dl, depending on age. If you suffer from hypogonadism with a freeT of 5 (just an example) and raise the level to 15 (as an example for a 40 year old) and you dont improve then something else is wrong. And i think thats also how the majority of men on TRT are treated. There is a reason why eg FDA now approved an autoinjector for subq with available dosages of 50, 75 and 100mg - simply because for most men this is enough to elevate T and freeT to normal physiological levels. And I dont think that this forum here is representative of all the men on TRT (take the injection frequency as an example).
And the higher you go with the freeT levels that you target the higher the probability of developing side effects becomes. About 50% of men on TRT experience erythocytosis and there is a clear relationship between dose and degree of erythrocytosis.
This is how I see it: First try to elevate T into physiological ranges of your age. If that does the trick, wonderful. Lowest effective dose, least side effects to be expected.
If you dont feel fine or if you are curious on how you feel on higher levels (alpha male) and you didnt run into issues such as erythrocytosis in the first place than yes, elevate your dose and find your sweet spot. There are some men here that do practice TRT in that way, and its perfectly fair and sound. But this should be your second option in my opinion and not the general recommendation.
I’m seeing it from both medical/physiological and optimization.
There is one major factor you are not taking into account: EDCs (Endocrine Disrupting Chemicals).
There is a reason why men with ‘normal’ levels of testosterone have all the symptoms of low T when this was rarely the case 20 years ago. EDCs are outcompeting testosterone at the receptor site. You now need way more T to outcompete the EDCs to have the same effect. The literature on this will becoming mainstream in the next 2-3 years as studies are being done on it as we speak. ‘Normal’ rarely cuts it anymore.
Have you read any of my posts? There’s probably more posts stating my E2 is almost 80 or I use 200mg/week than those without it. Literally everyday. I seriously doubt there’s one person on this site that doesn’t know my protocol and where it puts me and I can guarantee you not one of them gives a shit because it won’t have the same effect on them. I know what most of the members that have seen great results do. It’s how you get there.
E2 = 22 happened because anyone that said differently was told they were wrong.
There is strong data demonstrating that male fertility has deterioated over the last decades and there is data suggesting that the T concentration on a population level has declined.
Besides the major changes in lifestyle of our generation (sedentary lifestyle, high calorie intake etc) EDC provide a highly interesting and relevant explanation for these observations, although the exact impact of which has not been quantified.
A now widely accepted and experimentally conirmed theory is that EDCs have oestrogenic effects, thereby shifting the balance between androgens and oestrogens. This leads to a increased oestrogenic feedback at the pituitary and thereby reducing the secretion of LH and subsequently T. This mechanism seems to be most impactful during the highly sensitive phase of embryonic development in the second month where the development of the primary sex organs is taking place. Unfortunately there are many example of industrial accidants with EDCs acting as oestrogens that went along with an increased incidence of malformations of the male genitalia (eg Seviso accident and incidence of hypospadias).
Whether EDCs have the same impact during the adulthood in which we are much less sensitive compard to the early embryonic phase or whether the reduced fertility during adulthood is a late effect of the impact during early development is still unclear. The majority of scientists lean towards the latter because EDCs that act as oestrogens have a 1000 fold lower binding affinity to the ER as compared to E2 for example making it unlikely to have an jmpact in adulthood. Also we consume large amounts of ‘natural’ EDCs with our food such as quercetin or genistein and these substances have been show to not impact T levels in adults.
In the setting of TRT this oestrogenic effect becomes less important as T is supplied externally and the HPTA is shut down anyway. So is there evidence that EDCs compete with T for the androgen receptor and act as antagonists? Yes there is, in principle. But the binding characteristics of the identified EDCs that are anti androgens shows again a 1000 fold lower binding to the androgen receptor compared to T or DHT. And there have been large screenings done. So there is not really compelling data available that would suggest that eg 15 ng/dl of freeT have a lower anabolic effect now then 30 years ago.
But it certainly is a highly interesting and relevant topic to society.
@johann77 if you happen to have a Facebook account, please send me a message: Danny Bossa. The profile pic shows my wife (a beautiful blonde) and me (holding a can of beer I beleive)
Shit @dextermorgan wasn’t lying about that E2=22 shit.
I was LOSING MY FUCKING MIND chasing that number.
@tfan866 It’s significant to have different perspectives because in the end, we don’t know if the person thats posting is that .000001% like @systemlord and may actually need to try and use his advice.
I know a bevy of peoples TRT dosages and regimens on here and not once did i think they were spamming. They’re relaying their experience and from there, the OPs will take tidbits from here and there to help themselves
System and Dexter are established veterans on this thread with plenty of beneficial info to offer. Once i finally get dialed in, i’ll definitely owe a good portion of my success to them.
You dont have to agree with everything they say, but they should be treated with the proper respect.
After all, we just wanna fuck these hoes to sleep with a high functioning libido and a working dick.
Hello @systemlord about this you are saying of low SHBG, my case is the same, so you only inject 50 mg each week bro?? i have been having issues with E2 and prolactin, currently on 140 mg TEST E per week splitted into 2 injections and puts me at 8.74 ng/ml, so i´d like to ask you, for a guy whose SHBG is at 20 what would be the ideal Total T number ?? thanks man i also feel better at a lower dose.
I heard a doctor at the Jay Campbell podcast saying that guys with low SHBG may inject each 4 to 5 days, but i rather continue doing twice per week at a lower dose.
@lukedorian There is no ideal number, neither for low SHBG neither for high. The idea that low SHBG guys need less testosterone is just an idea for now, proven wrong by many guys.
Your estradiol was not big on paper. Mine will soon be probably bigger. I dont care.
Do you have e2 symptoms or you are just afraid of a fucking piece of paper? How do you feel? This is the most important question.
What you can do is switch to daily injections. Proven to work hundreds of time.
Also many guys report enanthate to aromatize less than cypionate. It may be a bro science, but If Im stable on a protocol and have high e2 symptoms I would try that.
For e2 symptoms body composition plays major role. What is your body fat percentage?
@lukedorian
Small steps. Drop to 100-120mg at your current twice a week and assess after 8 weeks. Doing massive changes will end up with you not ever getting where you want to be. I started at 220mg/week, dropped to 100mg and went up 20mg increments every 8-12 weeks. Turns out 200mg gets me where I want to be. Had I just dropped 20mg I would have saved myself a year. Small changes for the win.
Yeah i use Enanthate, 18% BF, also i work out and get pumped like on cycle i get huge while on the gym at 115 kilos weight and height 190 cm, EU units, no foot nor pounds here.
That’s good to hear, dex. It’s given me confidence I’m doing the right thing.
Because of some idiot syringes I was using, I went from 40mg a week (accidentally) to 80mg a week (also accidentally). Did each for about 10 weeks. Felt awesome on 40mg but not perfect. Felt pretty good on 80mg but with a lot of weird crappy not-good side effects.
Now that I realized my mistake and can measure properly, I have decided on my own to drop to 60mg and see what that does.
Figured it will take less time than going back to 40 and wondering if I should hit 60… and then possibly back to 40.
If I’m not right or better on 60, I will head back to 40.
Correct, 49mg weekly, 7mg daily and I was dialed in, but had to deal with other health problems and stopped TRT for awhile and am going right back to 7mg daily in another week.
Your TT is on the higher end, would be nice to know where FT currently is, because FT converts over to estrogen, so if for example FT is well beyond the ranges, you can expect excess estrogen. You don’t target numbers, you increase, decrease the dosage until the symptoms of low testosterone are gone.
The labs are a guide so you can learn at what ranges you don’t respond well. Daily injections might be best for you, I see less aromatisation on daily dosing and crazy aromatisation as I move towards moderately sizes doses (twice weekly).
Most low SHBG guys only need a TT at 500 to get FT levels to the high normal ranges, high normal testosterone usually causes issues with estrogen.
I’ve seen doctors on Jay’s YouTube channel recommend a lot of different protocols, different people have different opinions as to what you should do because they are trying to build their reputation. Only a small percentage of doctors are getting things right, those are usually the doctors leading the field and going to conferences every year to learn and stay ahead of the game.
Thank you man, yes in fact calculating free t is in the high end 240 pg/ml (47-244), 24 ng/dl, which is a lot, yesterday i begun to lower the dose, i´ll draw blood after 6 weeks.
Any input on Arimidex, currently i dissolve 1 mg tab in 8 ml of vodka and take 0.35 ml (0.043 mg) i´m over responder and low as 0.25 mg will tank my E2 < 15 pg and makes me feel like crap.
Don’t take it at all. I went back and read your thread and you stated you felt good with your e2 at 50. If you feel good and you’re not having symptoms why take it?
Dude there are tons of doctors all over the forums disagreeing with you and your nonsense, on your group, you just ban them lol, well, the ones who actually wanna associate with you, which aint many no more.
Lol again. You do not have experience, I have experience with hundreds of bodybuilders letting their e2 go high resulting in ED and poor libido. You havent even been on TRT for a long time, you are a very new dude in this community. Please, stay humble, atleast for your own sake (and already poor rumour).
Europe is experiencing an explosion in health costs caused by endocrine-disrupting chemicals (EDCs) that is comparable to the cost of lead and mercury poisoning, according to the most comprehensive study of the subject yet published.
Endocrine disruptors are chemicals that interfere with the human hormone system, and can be found in food containers, plastics, furniture, toys, carpeting and cosmetics.
The new series of reports by 18 of the world’s foremost experts on endocrine science pegs the health costs of exposure to them at between €157bn-€270bn (£113bn-£195bn), or at least 1.23% of the continent’s GDP.
Costs in the U.S. would likely be quite similar, as exposures to EDCs are fairly similar to those occurring in the EU, although levels of flame retardants are much higher in the U.S.