[quote]groo wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Ever notice when debating an atheist, is that the first thing they do is tell you how smart they are and how dumb you are?
Ironic when you are advocating a belief in nothing.[/quote]
Yes come to the dark side.[/quote]
groo, you used to have a LOT more to offer than this.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]orion wrote:
[quote]kamui wrote:
On other hand…
If i go to Hell, i may end up discussing politics and economics with libertarians.
Heaven may be ok, after all.
[/quote]
When we are done arguing, we drink, they pray.
Take your pick, but in the face of eternity, what does it matter?[/quote]
I drink while I pray. [/quote]
Lol! Nice.
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
Thor>Prince of Peace[/quote]
Jesus turned water in to wine. Who brings the party favors…that’s what I thought.[/quote]
LOL. Chris, the more you post the more I like you.[/quote]
Haha, well after all those stories about Soviet Russia, I’ve come to like you, too Doctor. [/quote]
Where could I find the thread referred to here? This is the second time I’ve seen it mentioned and I’d love to read it.
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
Thor>Prince of Peace[/quote]
Jesus turned water in to wine. Who brings the party favors…that’s what I thought.[/quote]
LOL. Chris, the more you post the more I like you.[/quote]
Haha, well after all those stories about Soviet Russia, I’ve come to like you, too Doctor. [/quote]
Where could I find the thread referred to here? This is the second time I’ve seen it mentioned and I’d love to read it. [/quote]
GAL>In Soviet Russia…
[quote]Cortes wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
[quote]Brother Chris wrote:
[quote]americaninsweden wrote:
Thor>Prince of Peace[/quote]
Jesus turned water in to wine. Who brings the party favors…that’s what I thought.[/quote]
LOL. Chris, the more you post the more I like you.[/quote]
Haha, well after all those stories about Soviet Russia, I’ve come to like you, too Doctor. [/quote]
Where could I find the thread referred to here? This is the second time I’ve seen it mentioned and I’d love to read it. [/quote]
Here you go.
[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Good to see my ol buddy Cortes stick his nose back in here for a while. I almost PM’d you last night, but I got hung up in a tussle with my other ol buddy Thunderbolt.
[quote]otar wrote:[quote]pat wrote:
Ever notice when debating an atheist, is that the first thing they do is tell you how smart they are and how dumb you are?
Ironic when you are advocating a belief in nothing.[/quote]That’s pretty common on both sides, I assure you. >>>[/quote]I assure you it is not common on my side. I assume everybody’s intelligence and never tell anybody they’re stupid no matter how heated it gets.
[/quote]
I wasn’t attempting a snipe, merely an observation that any time I’m present and people debate this particular subject both sides tend to do that.
[quote]Trad_Climb wrote:
Of course I know my church was started by Joseph Smith being told to join no other church, and that he was made responsible to restore Christs original set up. By why do people feel it so necessary to make a spectacle of how they feel I am wrong. Going with what Smith was told, shouldn’t I and all my fellow members be outside all the other religions chapels letting them know the good news: “hey idiots we think you are just as wrong as you think we are wrong!”
I understand they think we are crazy to believe in Joseph’s vision, but I think its crazy to baptize/christen a baby. Yet I’ve never met a Mormon who said "hey want to go protest outside X church this Friday?[/quote]Fair enough friend. I won’t be protesting outside your ward this weekend and I assure you I have nothing against you as a man, but I do not believe your religion has anything whatever to do with the true and living God and His Christ. I would be unfaithful to them if I didn’t tell you at least that much. There is no “eternal progression” or celestial, terrestrial and telestial kingdoms where everybody goes except the especially egregious sons of perdition. There are those who are in Christ and those who are not.
I also was not intending to make fun of you or be hurtful and I apologize if it came off that way. You made a statement that seemed to me inconsistent with the foundations of your church. I hope you stick around. We may disagree some more in the future, but I will try to be respectful and polite in so doing.
Thanks Chris and Dr.Matt!
[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< Thanks Tirib. I haven’t missed a single post of any of this. I have just decided it is better right now for me to remain in a period of reading and contemplation; something I do periodically. I’ll be back to posting regularly soon enough. Not sure when, but I’ve not left T-Nation in 10 years now (despite my join date, I used to purchase the paper mag). I’m not going anywhere.
[/quote]I can “feel” you back there lurkin =] (that’s a sorta serious statement btw). A few new developments and I’m sure we’ll pick up some old ones still. Always good to see ya though.
Would you agree that the religion one chooses is the one they live , not necessarily the building they go to? If I believe that Christ is my savior and that I must have faith, be baptized, follow the commandments, and dedicate myself to Him, am I living a life “true to the living God and His Christ”?
When I was a teen-ager, I went through my rebellious phase, as most people do, I wasn’t sure If I wanted to be a Mormon any more, if I believed God was worth all the time and effort, My mother told me though: “Sure it could all be false, maybe God doesn’t exist, Maybe the LDS church isn’t the true church, but is there any better way to live your life? You go to church every Sunday, live a life reaching towards God, charitable with time and money, and raise a family to also live good lives.” I like to think that God will judge a man not only by his actions but by his hearts intent, If my religion is wrong, well at least I’ll die living the principles Jesus taught, is there any value in that?
Which part?
[quote]otar wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Ever notice when debating an atheist, is that the first thing they do is tell you how smart they are and how dumb you are?
Ironic when you are advocating a belief in nothing.[/quote]
That’s pretty common on both sides, I assure you. Also I don’t really think it’s fair to reduce atheism to a belief in nothing, it’s simply the belief that there are no God(s).[/quote]
And how is that not nothing?
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
An imagination is a nice thing to have.[/quote]
Why?
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Pat, could you fix that post above so I can read it better?[/quote]
Sorry if I seemed terse. I didn’t realize it was you… I like you. I have my guard up.[/quote]
It’s okay. Why don’t we just disregard some of the harsher wording in your response? And I wasn’t comparing religion and science, I was pointing out the differences between them. I don’t feel any need to try and “disprove” any religion, which is next to impossible anyway. It seemed to me that you were saying that they were the same thing, but now it seems like you were saying that some people uneducated in science tend to view it the same way as people who subscribe to religions, which I agree with. As to your question about absolute truth, I don’t even know what an absolute truth is so I can’t offer an opinion on whether scientific knowledge can “trump” it or not, or whether such a thing even exists.
[/quote]
I usually do the opposite. Because I see the misuse of science in this respect all the time. Some people don’t understand how they are not the same thing.
There is nothing magical or mystical about absolute truth. It’s simply a correct deductive argument where the premises are correct and so is the conclusion that follows. Being a scientist and all, you deal with a form of it everyday, math. Math is a form of deductive argument and it’s truths are absolute. 1+2=3 is always truth, will always be true and there is nothing that can make it untrue. So when it comes to absolutes, they do exist, but they are metaphysical entities. Nothing physical can every be abosultely, just more or less probable.
BUT science does function on these absolutes. Like causation. Without causation, science is utterly meaningless.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]otar wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Ever notice when debating an atheist, is that the first thing they do is tell you how smart they are and how dumb you are?
Ironic when you are advocating a belief in nothing.[/quote]
That’s pretty common on both sides, I assure you. Also I don’t really think it’s fair to reduce atheism to a belief in nothing, it’s simply the belief that there are no God(s).[/quote]
And how is that not nothing?[/quote]
I have many beliefs pat, we are probably not as different as you might think. I believe in love, happiness, family etc.
I just lack a belief in a god.
[quote]bigflamer wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
…[/quote]
Atheism: A realization that people come to not just because they ARE smart, but because they refuse to blindly believe in the mythology of the day, have a healthy skepticism, and are willing to throw the bullshit flag.
[/quote]
Yeah, because it relies on the belief that nothing can do something. Fucking brilliant…
Until you can prove that nothing can do something, your logic is a failure.
[quote]groo wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Ever notice when debating an atheist, is that the first thing they do is tell you how smart they are and how dumb you are?
Ironic when you are advocating a belief in nothing.[/quote]
Yes come to the dark side.[/quote]
I don’t believe in self imposed ignorance, I find it limiting.
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Pat, could you fix that post above so I can read it better?[/quote]
Sorry if I seemed terse. I didn’t realize it was you… I like you. I have my guard up.[/quote]
It’s okay. Why don’t we just disregard some of the harsher wording in your response? And I wasn’t comparing religion and science, I was pointing out the differences between them. I don’t feel any need to try and “disprove” any religion, which is next to impossible anyway. It seemed to me that you were saying that they were the same thing, but now it seems like you were saying that some people uneducated in science tend to view it the same way as people who subscribe to religions, which I agree with. As to your question about absolute truth, I don’t even know what an absolute truth is so I can’t offer an opinion on whether scientific knowledge can “trump” it or not, or whether such a thing even exists.
[/quote]
I usually do the opposite. Because I see the misuse of science in this respect all the time. Some people don’t understand how they are not the same thing.
There is nothing magical or mystical about absolute truth. It’s simply a correct deductive argument where the premises are correct and so is the conclusion that follows. Being a scientist and all, you deal with a form of it everyday, math. Math is a form of deductive argument and it’s truths are absolute. 1+2=3 is always truth, will always be true and there is nothing that can make it untrue. So when it comes to absolutes, they do exist, but they are metaphysical entities. Nothing physical can every be abosultely, just more or less probable.
BUT science does function on these absolutes. Like causation. Without causation, science is utterly meaningless. [/quote]
Let me ask you something pat, how can you be certain absolute truth exists?
Even if god is handing down absolute truth to us as you say, our relatively feeble minds would still be the ones interpreting this absolute truth. So how can we be sure what is absolute truth when we are fallible?
Wouldn’t it be more likely that EVERYTHING we know is wrong to some degree?
[quote]pat wrote:
Yeah, because it relies on the belief that nothing can do something. Fucking brilliant…
[/quote]
Even if we accept something cannot come from nothing, how do you know there isn’t a 3rd option?
Saying "well uh I can’t think of another option, can you?’ is an argument from ignorance.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
Yeah, because it relies on the belief that nothing can do something. Fucking brilliant…
[/quote]
Even if we accept something cannot come from nothing, how do you know there isn’t a 3rd option?
Saying "well uh I can’t think of another option, can you?’ is an argument from ignorance.[/quote]
There’s not a 3rd option, it cannot be conceived because it cannot exist. The second you even try to rationalize it, you have introduced a something. That’s why it’s impossible. What does not exist, cannot do anything. To believe in atheism you have to believe this.
Except, it’s totally and absolutely logically impossible. It’s not that it hasn’t been thought of, it’s that it cannot happen.
Go ahead and try to posit a scenario where something can come from nothing?
A Theoretical Physicist, Lawrence Krauss tried to argue that, he that it comes from Dark Energy and QM mechanics demands it. Well, quantum mechanics and dark energy are both ‘somethings’ not nothings.I actually asked him the question directly, he said ‘no there’s always something’. I still have the email because I couldn’t believe he actually wrote me back.
Hawking tried to say that everything came from gravity. Maybe, but gravity is not nothing. It’s working on us all right now as we speak. So I am pretty sure it’s a something.
[quote]therajraj wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
[quote]pat wrote:
[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:
Pat, could you fix that post above so I can read it better?[/quote]
Sorry if I seemed terse. I didn’t realize it was you… I like you. I have my guard up.[/quote]
It’s okay. Why don’t we just disregard some of the harsher wording in your response? And I wasn’t comparing religion and science, I was pointing out the differences between them. I don’t feel any need to try and “disprove” any religion, which is next to impossible anyway. It seemed to me that you were saying that they were the same thing, but now it seems like you were saying that some people uneducated in science tend to view it the same way as people who subscribe to religions, which I agree with. As to your question about absolute truth, I don’t even know what an absolute truth is so I can’t offer an opinion on whether scientific knowledge can “trump” it or not, or whether such a thing even exists.
[/quote]
I usually do the opposite. Because I see the misuse of science in this respect all the time. Some people don’t understand how they are not the same thing.
There is nothing magical or mystical about absolute truth. It’s simply a correct deductive argument where the premises are correct and so is the conclusion that follows. Being a scientist and all, you deal with a form of it everyday, math. Math is a form of deductive argument and it’s truths are absolute. 1+2=3 is always truth, will always be true and there is nothing that can make it untrue. So when it comes to absolutes, they do exist, but they are metaphysical entities. Nothing physical can every be abosultely, just more or less probable.
BUT science does function on these absolutes. Like causation. Without causation, science is utterly meaningless. [/quote]
Let me ask you something pat, how can you be certain absolute truth exists?
Even if god is handing down absolute truth to us as you say, our relatively feeble minds would still be the ones interpreting this absolute truth. So how can we be sure what is absolute truth when we are fallible?
Wouldn’t it be more likely that EVERYTHING we know is wrong to some degree?
[/quote]
No. Deductive truths, by definition are necessarily true. If not, then you either don’t have a deductive argument, or the argument is flawed.
Like I said, math is a form of deductive reasoning. Can you propose a scenario where 1+2 does not equal 3?
Try alternate universes, alternate realities, try what ever you like. If have 1 and you add 2 to it, you will always have 3. There is nothing you can do about it.