Bush's Trip to Russia

Here are the money quotes for those incapable of reading the entire article:

That the commemoration of the end of World War II is being used to announce the commencement of World War IV is just another one of those little ironies that the Bush administration seems to delight in.

By entering the war at all, and opening up a “second front” in the West ? at the urging of American leftists and other friends of the Soviet Union ? the U.S. saved the Bolsheviks from probable extinction at Hitler’s hands. Without American support via the Lend-Lease Act, the Soviet regime might not have survived the war ? which was precisely the hope of those conservative opponents of U.S. intervention, supporters of the America First Committee such as Colonel Robert R. McCormick, the publisher of the staunchly anti-interventionist Chicago Tribune.

McCormick was right. By the time Roosevelt met with Stalin and Churchill at Yalta, in mid-February of 1945, it was too late to reverse the effects of our entry into the war: the enslavement of Eastern Europe by the Kremlin was an accomplished fact. As the three leaders sat down to plan the postwar world, Soviet troops were already ensconced in Bucharest, Sofia, Warsaw, Vilnius, Riga, and Tallinn. A few months later, they would “liberate” Prague and Vienna. At Yalta, the American president merely acknowledged the facts on the ground: when the Red Army raised its flag over the bombed-out ruins of the German Reichstag, the Bolshevist banner was hoisted over half of Europe. No other result could have been imagined.

If Bush really wanted to repent for a U.S. policy that essentially created the postwar Soviet empire, he would have commemorated the end of World War II by forthrightly ruing the day we got into it.

[i]Bush disingenuously declared:

“All the nations that border Russia will benefit from the spread of democratic values, and so will Russia itself. Stable, prosperous democracies are good neighbors, trading in freedom and posing no threat to anyone.”

If that’s true, then why is Ukraine clamoring to enter NATO ? or, better yet, why is NATO still in existence over a decade after the demise of Communism? If the prospect of NATO troops stationed minutes from Moscow is “no threat to anyone,” then one has to wonder when Putin is supposed to start worrying. Presumably, when they reach the gates of the Kremlin.[/i]

All indications are that America’s fifth column inside the former Soviet Union is mobilizing for a mighty push to prevent Putin from running for a third term.

Imagine if the Russian foreign minister had arrived on our shores in the late 1930s and denounced the very idea of Roosevelt running for a third term as evidence that America was veering off the path of democracy. What a sensation it would have caused! We don’t have to imagine what would happen if an American secretary of state traveled to Russia and said exactly the equivalent about Putin’s ambitions, because Condoleezza Rice has done it ? alienating the Russian people, as well as their popular leader, who had no choice but to answer in kind.

In an interview with 60 Minutes, Putin wondered why America goes abroad in search of undemocratic monsters to destroy when the dragon of elitist rule survives in the Electoral College. He reminded Americans that Bush came to power thanks to the Supreme Court, rather than a majority vote of the electorate. He noted Russia is criticized for appointing rather than electing regional governors, but India has a similar system ? yet no one is diagnosing New Delhi’s healthy democracy as afflicted with terminal authoritarianism.

What color will the anti-Putin “revolutionaries” choose as their chromatic theme? Red is out, of course, and orange, yellow, pink, and rose are already taken.

The last leg of Bush’s journey is surely the most ominous. Georgia sits amid the smoldering cinders of a low-level brush fire that could well flare up, on any pretext, into a more generalized conflagration: the Caucasus is the Balkans of the 21st century, where a single spark could set off World War IV.

[i]Georgia’s “revolutionary” pro-Western regime ? put in power by the U.S. and maintained by massive amounts of “foreign aid” ? has restricted freedom of assembly, cracked down on opposition groups, and engaged in arbitrary arrests and detentions. The “pro-democracy” activists of the “Rose Revolution,” once in power, launched what amounts to a massive purge of former officials and Schevardnadze-era business moguls. Victims of the “revolution” are blackmailed, hauled before a kangaroo court, imprisoned, and brutally mistreated ? that’s according to our own State Department country report on human rights practices in Georgia.

If George W. Bush scolds Putin for an alleged “authoritarian” streak, then what will he say to Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili? He led a “Rose Revolution” fueled, in large part, by the claim that the Shevardnadze party had rigged the 2003 parliamentary elections ? and he was elected president in 2004 with a disquieting 96 percent of the vote, an achievement second only to the results of Saddam Hussein’s 2002 “referendum,” in which he claimed 100 percent assent for another seven-year term.

You can count on Bush not mentioning any of the above in Tbilisi, but instead pointing to Saakashvili as a model leader of Georgia’s “aspiring” democracy. As a prospective NATO member, Georgia is on the front lines of the new anti-Russian alliance: along with Ukraine and the Baltics, it is slated to become an important forward base for the West.[/i]

The Caucasus rumbles with seismic tremors, as the tectonic plates of power shift. In newly “liberated” Kyrgyzstan, the pink-and-yellow “revolutionaries” are seizing the property of Russian speakers and effectively carrying out an anti-Russian ethnic cleansing. Moldova smolders, while the Americans openly incite the Belarusians to rise. Oh, but we aren’t Jacobins, protests the president…

That Moscow now finds itself in a circle of steel, surrounded by enemies armed and brought to power by the West, should disabuse Putin of any notion that he can successfully appease the West and avoid being targeted as the latest “dictator” to fall. They will come for him, or they will come for his successor. They are already on the way.

Putin, the quintessential patriot, is standing up for Holy Mother Russia, and he is far from the authoritarian monster that Western liberals have conjured. He is, however, (a) no angel, and (b) burdened by major economic problems.

[i]What is important to keep in mind, as the demonization of Russia proceeds apace, is that Russia is no threat to the United States at present, and it is not in our interests to institute a policy of “regime change” in that country, either by funding “pro-democracy” movements and institutions or by other means.

Russia is barely a decade out of the worst tyranny the world has ever seen, and the progress it has made in the direction of individual liberty, the democratic process, and the rule of law is remarkable by any measure.
[/i]

Our policy toward Russia brings out the underlying theme of American foreign policy, which is not Democracy but Domination ? American domination, that is. In the endless search for enemies that keeps the interventionists perpetually busy, it is Russia’s turn, once again, to play the bogeyman. We can only hope that the Fourth World War, like the Third, will remain a cold war.


Can’t wait to hear all the educated opinions about this one!

P.S. Be sure to click on all the red words and phrases in the article before voicing a disagreement.

Aiding Russia saved British and American lives and shortened the war. The postwar strength of the Soviet Union and the Cold War was certainly a large drawback. FDR wad a naive faith in the goodness of Uncle Joe Stalin.

While our aid to Russia was very important I do not believe that Hitler would have ultimately won on the Eastern front even if we did not aid Russia at all.

If America would have maintained a strict neutrality it is quite likely that the Soviets and Nazis would have achieved some sort of ceasefire in the east.

Britian would likely have fallen to the Nazis.

A dominant Japan in Asia, a Nazi Western Europe and a Soviet Russia with an isolationist America is not a very appealing scenario.

Al, please give me your honest opinion as to what you think the US should have done starting in 1939.

I’m not well enough informed of the historical semantics of WWII to address your assumptions formally, and in any case they are beside the point. You have made the mistake, as many did after 9/11, of setting into existence a hypothetical world which started on the eve of the “Great Event”, in this case WWII. There’s nothing wrong with creating hypothetical scenarios and engaging in historical speculation, provided it is backed up by conclusive evidence. However, problems arise when arbitrary timelines are created and imposed in hypothetical scenarios bereft of any regard for events predating the beginning of said timelines. To quote Harry Browne, “The world did not begin on 9/11…” - and neither did it begin in 1939.

“Al, please give me your honest opinion as to what you think the US should have done starting in 1939.”

Repent for the huge mistakes it made in 1914. Had America stayed out of WWI, Hitler would never have come to power, and it’s feasible that the Commies wouldn’t have, either. This would have eliminated all of the “birds” you raised in your post with a single, giant stone. But to answer your question literally: I think America should have minded its own business throughout WWII and let the cards fall where they may. It’s entirely possible that the nation would still have suffered for the creation of its own monsters - as it ended up doing. That’s an unavoidable consequence of foreign intervention - it never produces good results. More intervention in WWII certainly didn’t produce anything beneficial.

We should have extended that “domination” to the end of WWII – perhaps then we would have staved off Soviet domination of eastern Europe.

From Professor Bainbridge:

Yalta Revisited

My post on Yalta is drawing a lot of hostile emails from lefties, most of whom claim there was nothing the US could have done to prevent Soviet domination of post-war Eastern Europe. Horse hockey. Here’s just a few ideas, in no particular order:

  1. Follow the strategy proposed by some of pursuing not a cross-channel invasion but a Balkans-based strategy of beating the Soviets to Vienna and then Berlin
  2. Let either Monty or Patton beat the Russians to Berlin
  3. Not send a dying man to negotiate with two of the best diplomatic card players in history
  4. Not be so desperate to get the Russians to attack Japan that you give away the store
  5. Not let a communist spy (Alger Hiss) be a key advisor
  6. Give the free Poles and Czechs fighting in the West support.
  7. Threaten to use the A-bomb
  8. Keep a viable fighting force in Europe post-1945
  9. Treat the Berlin crisis as a casus belli rather than a humanitarian problem
  10. Support the Hungarians in 1956

Jonathan Haslam’s essay in Niall Ferguson’s anthology Virtual History offers a wealth of detail from a professional historian’s perspective on how what he calls the “sovietization of Eastern Europe” might have been prevented.

The idea that we had to just sit there and watch the Iron Curtain come down is the really ahistorical idea. Yalta was lousy policy. How the American left can try to defend that policy in light of the half century of oppression it caused is beyond me. Kudos to Bush for saying so.

[quote]Al Shades wrote:
I’m not well enough informed of the historical semantics of WWII to address your assumptions formally, and in any case they are beside the point. You have made the mistake, as many did after 9/11, of setting into existence a hypothetical world which started on the eve of the “Great Event”, in this case WWII. There’s nothing wrong with creating hypothetical scenarios and engaging in historical speculation, provided it is backed up by conclusive evidence. However, problems arise when arbitrary timelines are created and imposed in hypothetical scenarios bereft of any regard for events predating the beginning of said timelines. To quote Harry Browne, “The world did not begin on 9/11…” - and neither did it begin in 1939.

“Al, please give me your honest opinion as to what you think the US should have done starting in 1939.”

Repent for the huge mistakes it made in 1914. Had America stayed out of WWI, Hitler would never have come to power, and it’s feasible that the Commies wouldn’t have, either. This would have eliminated all of the “birds” you raised in your post with a single, giant stone. But to answer your question literally: I think America should have minded its own business throughout WWII and let the cards fall where they may. It’s entirely possible that the nation would still have suffered for the creation of its own monsters - as it ended up doing. That’s an unavoidable consequence of foreign intervention - it never produces good results. More intervention in WWII certainly didn’t produce anything beneficial.[/quote]

Al, assuming an isolationist foreign policy has been a long term disaster for every culture that has tried it. Any successes have been short term.

The history of man has been a history of trade, migration and invasion. If you try to avoid playing the foreign policy game you will end up losing.

Like every country the US has made mistakes in it’s foreign policy but the decision to fight WWII was not one of them.

How many more millions would the Nazi’s have gassed to death if the US had sat back and done nothing?

They killed 6 million Jews and 4 million Gypsies, homosexuals and mentally retarded people. What would be the next group?

Are you aware that Hitler had commissioned the Amerika bomber to bomb NY and DC long before the US was involved?

Compare that with the unprecedented prosperity the world has seen over the last 60 years. Population has grown and people lifetimes have been greatly extended.

The reasons to fight WWII are quite obvious.

It is less obvious why we fought WWI. Scholars today still don’t understand why it even started. I think it is pretty clear that the Bolshevik Revolution had nothing to do with US involvement in WWI.

I believe that if the US would not have fought in WWI that WWII would have happened anyway. So many factors are tied into WWII, the reparations paid by Germany after WWI are only a small part of it.

It is easy to blame our problems of today on our forefathers, but that changes nothing.

[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:

We should have extended that “domination” to the end of WWII – perhaps then we would have staved off Soviet domination of eastern Europe.

  1. Follow the strategy proposed by some of pursuing not a cross-channel invasion but a Balkans-based strategy of beating the Soviets to Vienna and then Berlin

Very difficult logistically.

  1. Let either Monty or Patton beat the Russians to Berlin

Would have killed many American or British troops for no reason. The lines were already drawn with the Russians.

  1. Not send a dying man to negotiate with two of the best diplomatic card players in history

Very true.

  1. Not be so desperate to get the Russians to attack Japan that you give away the store

Very true.

  1. Not let a communist spy (Alger Hiss) be a key advisor

Very true.

  1. Give the free Poles and Czechs fighting in the West support.

Very true.

  1. Threaten to use the A-bomb

On who? The Russians? Berlin?

  1. Keep a viable fighting force in Europe post-1945

America was tired of war.

  1. Treat the Berlin crisis as a casus belli rather than a humanitarian problem

America was tired of war.

  1. Support the Hungarians in 1956

Interesting thought.

Jonathan Haslam’s essay in Niall Ferguson’s anthology Virtual History offers a wealth of detail from a professional historian’s perspective on how what he calls the “sovietization of Eastern Europe” might have been prevented.

The idea that we had to just sit there and watch the Iron Curtain come down is the really ahistorical idea. Yalta was lousy policy. How the American left can try to defend that policy in light of the half century of oppression it caused is beyond me. Kudos to Bush for saying so.[/quote]

Eastern Europe was lost at the negotiating table. The use of military force to change what FDR cheerfully gave to Stalin is unrealistic.

It amazes me how few people in this country understand how FDR was totally outmanuevered in Tehran and Yalta.

American history has judged FDR much more kindly than he deserved.

[quote]Al Shades wrote:
I’m not well enough informed of the historical semantics of WWII to address your assumptions formally, and in any case they are beside the point. You have made the mistake, as many did after 9/11, of setting into existence a hypothetical world which started on the eve of the “Great Event”, in this case WWII. There’s nothing wrong with creating hypothetical scenarios and engaging in historical speculation, provided it is backed up by conclusive evidence. However, problems arise when arbitrary timelines are created and imposed in hypothetical scenarios bereft of any regard for events predating the beginning of said timelines. To quote Harry Browne, “The world did not begin on 9/11…” - and neither did it begin in 1939.

“Al, please give me your honest opinion as to what you think the US should have done starting in 1939.”

Repent for the huge mistakes it made in 1914. Had America stayed out of WWI, Hitler would never have come to power, and it’s feasible that the Commies wouldn’t have, either. This would have eliminated all of the “birds” you raised in your post with a single, giant stone. But to answer your question literally: I think America should have minded its own business throughout WWII and let the cards fall where they may. It’s entirely possible that the nation would still have suffered for the creation of its own monsters - as it ended up doing. That’s an unavoidable consequence of foreign intervention - it never produces good results. More intervention in WWII certainly didn’t produce anything beneficial.[/quote]

Hey Al–

Read your first paragraph—then read your 3rd

Lot of hypotheticals, not much conclusive

Or did I miss something. I’ve been told my reading com prehension skills are not up to par.

Zap

I may be wrong, but I think the ‘love’ of FDR has more to do with his domestic achievements, as opposed to foreign ones.

Didn’t we go through this excersize a month or two ago with you Al? I think it was at about the same time you introduced yourself to T-Nation by exclaiming your undying love for H. Browne…

My problem is not reading an entire article, It’s suffering through the entirety of an article like that.
Just try to bear in mind that just because someone took the time to write it down doesn’t mean that it is true or even accurate. Most folks on blogs are familiar with spell check but they don’t have a fact check.

[quote]sasquatch wrote:
Zap

I may be wrong, but I think the ‘love’ of FDR has more to do with his domestic achievements, as opposed to foreign ones.[/quote]

You may be right. I am not in love with his domestic achievements either.

In spite of his New Deal, unemployment was rampant and the economy was in shambles until WWII.

He inherited a depression, but it became Great under his misguided socialistic antibusiness policies.

He did use a cool cigarette holder though. Kind of like the Penguin.