Bush's Fault?

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
61

–Also posted in the “accountable” thread in Get A Life (off Topic)

Are we blaming presidents Carter and Reagan for the Mt. St. Helens eruption in 1980?

Nope.

How can the responsibility of this disaster fall on the shoulders of Mr. Bush? His responsibility is GLOBAL and when a GLOBAL response has been warranted as in the Tsunami over Christmas it has been expeditious and effective.

This domestic disaster or the preparedness thereof is the responsibility of the local gov’ts. The thing that keeps ringing clear to me is that the gulf, Louisiana and N.O. especially, were not prepared. Everyone down there was in a bar preparing for the next Mardi-Gras and not planning for the big Cat-4 that would eventually occur. Build up the levy’s, hindsight reveals that the whole notion of building up the levy’s would have been a smart thing to do, but no-one pulled the trigger on it. I’d be curious to see if that issue was on any agenda of any state representative in Louisiana.

The Mayor of that city fucking failed. When I think of an example of good civic leaders in the time of crisis I think of Mayor Giuliani during the 911 disaster.

This guy is not, in any shape way or form Mayor Giuliani. He’s barking about getting help, but not being a leader what-so-ever. He needs to be out there, supporting the rescue efforts, kissing the old lady’s, reassuring the children, not griping on the radio while his city stews in it’s own flooded sewage-ridden streets.

The city and state should look at this as their failure initially. Of course, FEMA, the Red Cross, and the Domestic emergency response services should look in the mirror and recognize their errors as well, but as discussed in previous threads concerning all kinds of topics, “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”

This didn’t have to be as bad as it was, and it got that bad especially in LA and N.O. becuase the local good ol’ boys decided it was a better idea to look the other way and not worry about the impending catastrophe. They failed their own people on an issue that could have been handled at the lowest of legislative levels.

GAINER

62

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
Proactive Federal Response to Catastrophic Events[/quote]

Some of the events which took place on Sunday the 28th of Aug.

Homeland Security Prepping For Dangerous Hurricane Katrina
Residents in path of storm “Must take action now”

Release Date: August 28, 2005
Release Number: HQ-05-173

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security?s Federal Emergency Management Agency is warning residents along Gulf Coast states to take immediate action to prepare for dangerous Hurricane Katrina as it approaches land.

?There?s still time to take action now, but you must be prepared and take shelter and other emergency precautions immediately,? said Michael D. Brown, Under Secretary of Homeland Security for Emergency Preparedness and Response. ?FEMA has pre-positioned many assets including ice, water, food and rescue teams to move into the stricken areas as soon as it is safe to do so.?

Landfall is currently expected late Sunday evening, with the eye of the storm arriving Monday morning.

On Saturday, President Bush has declared an emergency for the states of Louisiana and Mississippi opening up FEMA?s ability to move into the state and assist the state and local governments with mobilizing resources and preparations to save lives and property from the impact of Hurricane Katrina. FEMA is moving supplies of generators, water, ice and food into the region for immediate deployment once the storm passes. FEMA?s Urban Search & Rescue (USAR) and Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATs) are also staged for immediate response anywhere in the region. The funding and direct federal assistance will assist law enforcement with evacuations, establishing shelters and other emergency protective measures.

FEMA has deployed USAR teams from Tennessee, Missouri and Texas to stage in Shreveport, LA… USAR teams from Indiana and Ohio are staged in Meridian, MS. Two teams each from Florida and Virginia and one team from Maryland are on alert at their home stations.

A total of 18 DMATs have been deployed to staging areas in Houston, Anniston and Memphis. There are 9 full DMATs (35 members per team) and 9 strike teams (5 members per team) in these staging areas.

Both Mississippi and Louisiana have mandatory evacuation orders in place for some areas. National Guard troops have been deployed to assist law enforcement in evacuations.

Meanwhile, in Florida, joint federal-state-local damage assessments continue in the heavily impacted areas of south Florida from Hurricane Katrina?s impact on Thursday. The joint damage assessment teams are expected to finish much of their work on Sunday. Assessment teams are not only looking at whether structural damage to communities and individual homes and property exists, but also to what extent private insurance and other federal agency and volunteer organization programs will cover any damage found. This will help determine the need for a federal disaster declaration or if state and local resources can cover the remaining needs. The state of Florida has opened distribution centers in Homestead and Miami for commodities of ice, water and food. Power outages continue to be addressed and shelters are open for those in need.

FEMA?s Regional Offices in Atlanta, Georgia, and Denton, Texas, are monitoring Hurricane Katrina?s progress through the Gulf and are closely coordinating with Florida, Louisiana, Mississippi and Alabama state Emergency Operations Centers. FEMA Advance Emergency Response Teams have been deployed to Florida, Alabama, Mississippi and Louisiana. FEMA has also sent Mobile Emergency Response Support vehicles to Mississippi and Louisiana. Eighteen Disaster Medical Assistance Teams (DMATs) and 3 Urban Search and Rescue (US&R) task forces have been deployed to the region for further dispatch when needed.

63

[quote]elevationgain wrote:
–Also posted in the “accountable” thread in Get A Life (off Topic)

Are we blaming presidents Carter and Reagan for the Mt. St. Helens eruption in 1980?

Nope.

How can the responsibility of this disaster fall on the shoulders of Mr. Bush? His responsibility is GLOBAL and when a GLOBAL response has been warranted as in the Tsunami over Christmas it has been expeditious and effective.

This domestic disaster or the preparedness thereof is the responsibility of the local gov’ts. The thing that keeps ringing clear to me is that the gulf, Louisiana and N.O. especially, were not prepared. Everyone down there was in a bar preparing for the next Mardi-Gras and not planning for the big Cat-4 that would eventually occur. Build up the levy’s, hindsight reveals that the whole notion of building up the levy’s would have been a smart thing to do, but no-one pulled the trigger on it. I’d be curious to see if that issue was on any agenda of any state representative in Louisiana.

The Mayor of that city fucking failed. When I think of an example of good civic leaders in the time of crisis I think of Mayor Giuliani during the 911 disaster.

This guy is not, in any shape way or form Mayor Giuliani. He’s barking about getting help, but not being a leader what-so-ever. He needs to be out there, supporting the rescue efforts, kissing the old lady’s, reassuring the children, not griping on the radio while his city stews in it’s own flooded sewage-ridden streets.

The city and state should look at this as their failure initially. Of course, FEMA, the Red Cross, and the Domestic emergency response services should look in the mirror and recognize their errors as well, but as discussed in previous threads concerning all kinds of topics, “an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure”

This didn’t have to be as bad as it was, and it got that bad especially in LA and N.O. becuase the local good ol’ boys decided it was a better idea to look the other way and not worry about the impending catastrophe. They failed their own people on an issue that could have been handled at the lowest of legislative levels.

GAINER [/quote]

Excellent post elev.

64

I’m glad that people have posted on this so much and found it interesting. The only thing I will say is that Harry Truman had a famous plaque in the Oval office that will always hold true: “The Buck stops here”.

65

I heard on N.P.R. that the local Home land security branch rejected an offer of help from the Red Cross before the storm hit , because they were afraid it would encourage people to ride out the storm rather than evacuate .I am curious how much of this type of intellect is running the show

66

I just love the “straw man” arguments from Reddog, Zap, elevationgain, and others in the Bush Worship Brigade. You keep claiming that Bush did not cause Katrina. Well glory be and praise the lord; you are right. So I guess you win the argument. Oh wait. Since no one this forum has actually claimed Bush caused Katrina your arguments are worthless and do not apply. But thanks for playing.

The Bush Worship Brigade’s arguments, unlike New Orleans, don’t hold water. So why do they put such an obvious “straw man” out there. The reason is that their position on the real argument, whether or not Bush failed as our national leader and whether or not he shares blame for the piss poor response to the aftermath of Katrina, is almost impossible to defend.

So let’s look at some samples of Bush’s leadership
-Monday Aug 29
Katrina is slamming into the Gulf coast
Bush laughs it up at a staged Medicare event Arizona (it is good to remember that Bush had already been warned that this may be the most devastating hurricane to ever hit the U.S.)

-Tuesday Aug 30
Before dawn the levees break and New Orleans is flooded. Most likely thousands drown.
While thousands of Americans drown bush eats cake and then flies to San Diego to fiddle. (Sorry, strum a guitar.) Then he flies back to Crawford for a good nights sleep.

-Wednesday Aug 31
New Orleans is a disaster. 80% of the city is flooded and tens of thousands are stranded on roof tops. Emergency supplies of clean drinking water are urgently needed.
Bush flies to Washington flying over New Orleans. Bush states “it’s devastating it must be doubly devastating on the ground”.

-Thursday Sept 1
New Orleans still not getting water and food. FEMA turns away help from many different sources saying “it is not needed”.

-Friday Sept 2
Help from National Guard and FEMA trickles in. People start to be evacuated.
Bush stops in for a photo op. GROUNDS ALL RESCUE HELICOPTERS FOR HOURS SO HE CAN GET PHOTO TAKEN IN NEW ORLEANS. http://www.nola.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/print076556.html
Not only did Bush screw with rescue efforts he even staged photo ops
“But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment.” Sen. Mary Landrieu

And a German TV news crew caught a faked food distribution for a photo op
ZDF News reported that the president’s visit was a completely staged event. Their crew witnessed how the open air food distribution point Bush visited in front of the cameras was torn down immediately after the president and the herd of ‘news people’ had left and that others which were allegedly being set up were abandoned at the same time. The people in the area were once again left to fend for themselves, said ZDF."

-Saturday Sept 3
Things are getting better.
Laura Bush stops by the Cajundome to help. A volunteer there talks about the help she brought. “It actually couldn’t have been a worse experience; a team of us were working to put up a website with directions to every Red Cross shelter in the region when we were evicted from the computer room by the Secret Service. There’s only one room in the Cajundome with telephones and internet access for refugees, and Laura Bush shut it down for eight hours (along with the food service rooms to the side and the women’s showers). You may have seen it on CNN; apparently seven refugees were allowed back so Laura could help them in front of the cameras…Now, I know this is the sort of thing that happens whenever a VIP tours a disaster site, and maybe Laura Bush handing out that loaf of bread really will lead to an increase in donations. All I can say is, to have paralyzed a third of a day of operations at this stage of the game, it fucking well better.” A Brush with Bush in NO

I could go on with many more sample of poor leadership and probably will later, but I will leave you with this last one. It seems that over 1000 trained firemen volunteered to help. Instead of sending them to New Orleans where New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin pleaded on national television for firefighters - his own are exhausted after working around the clock for a week - a battalion of highly trained men and women sat idle Sunday in a muggy Sheraton Hotel conference room in Atlanta getting Sexual Harassment training from FEMA.
“They’ve got people here who are search-and-rescue certified, paramedics, haz-mat certified,” said a Texas firefighter. “We’re sitting in here having a sexual-harassment class while there are still [victims] in Louisiana who haven’t been contacted yet.”
“There are all of these guys with all of this training and we’re sending them out to hand out a phone number,” an Oregon firefighter said. “They [the hurricane victims] are screaming for help and this day [of FEMA training] was a waste.”
Firefighters say they want to brave the heat, the debris-littered roads, the poisonous cottonmouth snakes and fire ants and travel into pockets of Louisiana where many people have yet to receive emergency aid.
But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. THE CREW’S FIRST ASSIGNMENT: TO STAND BESIDE PRESIDENT BUSH AS HE TOURS DEVESTATED AREAS.
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197

67

[quote]freemark wrote:
I just love the “straw man” arguments from Reddog, Zap, elevationgain, and others in the Bush Worship Brigade. You keep claiming that Bush did not cause Katrina. Well glory be and praise the lord; you are right. So I guess you win the argument. Oh wait. Since no one this forum has actually claimed Bush caused Katrina your arguments are worthless and do not apply. But thanks for playing.

The Bush Worship Brigade’s arguments, unlike New Orleans, don’t hold water. So why do they put such an obvious “straw man” out there. The reason is that their position on the real argument, whether or not Bush failed as our national leader and whether or not he shares blame for the piss poor response to the aftermath of Katrina, is almost impossible to defend.

So let’s look at some samples of Bush’s leadership
-Monday Aug 29
Katrina is slamming into the Gulf coast
Bush laughs it up at a staged Medicare event Arizona (it is good to remember that Bush had already been warned that this may be the most devastating hurricane to ever hit the U.S.)

-Tuesday Aug 30
Before dawn the levees break and New Orleans is flooded. Most likely thousands drown.
While thousands of Americans drown bush eats cake and then flies to San Diego to fiddle. (Sorry, strum a guitar.) Then he flies back to Crawford for a good nights sleep.

-Wednesday Aug 31
New Orleans is a disaster. 80% of the city is flooded and tens of thousands are stranded on roof tops. Emergency supplies of clean drinking water are urgently needed.
Bush flies to Washington flying over New Orleans. Bush states “it’s devastating it must be doubly devastating on the ground”.

-Thursday Sept 1
New Orleans still not getting water and food. FEMA turns away help from many different sources saying “it is not needed”.

-Friday Sept 2
Help from National Guard and FEMA trickles in. People start to be evacuated.
Bush stops in for a photo op. GROUNDS ALL RESCUE HELICOPTERS FOR HOURS SO HE CAN GET PHOTO TAKEN IN NEW ORLEANS. http://www.nola.com/weblogs/print.ssf?/mtlogs/nola_Times-Picayune/archives/print076556.html
Not only did Bush screw with rescue efforts he even staged photo ops
“But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment.” Sen. Mary Landrieu

And a German TV news crew caught a faked food distribution for a photo op
ZDF News reported that the president’s visit was a completely staged event. Their crew witnessed how the open air food distribution point Bush visited in front of the cameras was torn down immediately after the president and the herd of ‘news people’ had left and that others which were allegedly being set up were abandoned at the same time. The people in the area were once again left to fend for themselves, said ZDF."

-Saturday Sept 3
Things are getting better.
Laura Bush stops by the Cajundome to help. A volunteer there talks about the help she brought. “It actually couldn’t have been a worse experience; a team of us were working to put up a website with directions to every Red Cross shelter in the region when we were evicted from the computer room by the Secret Service. There’s only one room in the Cajundome with telephones and internet access for refugees, and Laura Bush shut it down for eight hours (along with the food service rooms to the side and the women’s showers). You may have seen it on CNN; apparently seven refugees were allowed back so Laura could help them in front of the cameras…Now, I know this is the sort of thing that happens whenever a VIP tours a disaster site, and maybe Laura Bush handing out that loaf of bread really will lead to an increase in donations. All I can say is, to have paralyzed a third of a day of operations at this stage of the game, it fucking well better.” A Brush with Bush in NO

I could go on with many more sample of poor leadership and probably will later, but I will leave you with this last one. It seems that over 1000 trained firemen volunteered to help. Instead of sending them to New Orleans where New Orleans Mayor Ray Nagin pleaded on national television for firefighters - his own are exhausted after working around the clock for a week - a battalion of highly trained men and women sat idle Sunday in a muggy Sheraton Hotel conference room in Atlanta getting Sexual Harassment training from FEMA.
“They’ve got people here who are search-and-rescue certified, paramedics, haz-mat certified,” said a Texas firefighter. “We’re sitting in here having a sexual-harassment class while there are still [victims] in Louisiana who haven’t been contacted yet.”
“There are all of these guys with all of this training and we’re sending them out to hand out a phone number,” an Oregon firefighter said. “They [the hurricane victims] are screaming for help and this day [of FEMA training] was a waste.”
Firefighters say they want to brave the heat, the debris-littered roads, the poisonous cottonmouth snakes and fire ants and travel into pockets of Louisiana where many people have yet to receive emergency aid.
But as specific orders began arriving to the firefighters in Atlanta, a team of 50 Monday morning quickly was ushered onto a flight headed for Louisiana. THE CREW’S FIRST ASSIGNMENT: TO STAND BESIDE PRESIDENT BUSH AS HE TOURS DEVESTATED AREAS.
http://www.sltrib.com/utah/ci_3004197

[/quote]

Maybe you should re-read what I’ve posted. I’ve never said Bush is without blame. My point has been that the majority (80%+) lies with the mayor and the governor. If they weren’t incompetent, their need for federal assistance would have been significantly less, and we wouldn’t even be talking about Bush. And it’s just that: federal ASSISTANCE. The primary responsibility lies with local gov’t. The reason so many of us think you’re an idiot is because you are trying to blame Bush for the entire thing, which makes you, well, an idiot.

68

[quote]rainjack wrote:
I think the left is creating this so-called “culmination”. This was the first time FEMA was mobilized on such a grand scale since it was placed under the control of the Dept. of Homeland Security. More than anything, I would think this is the culmination of all the fears people have of a big, ineffecient beuracracy. [/quote]

How many disasters until they get it ironed out then? I thought it was restructured because of the last so-called catastrophic, bureaucractic failure called 9/11? And we saw this one coming!

[quote]
I can’t find the poll, or a link, but there is a WaPo-ABC poll that shows only 13% of regular Americans (non-journalist, non political partisan) actually blame Bush.

Certainly there are things that he should take some heat for - but not nearly to the extent that the left has manufactured. [/quote]

Manufactured? He didn’t even show up for like four days. At least pretend like he cares.

[quote]
The partisanship is not wearing well on the ABB crowd. In fact - I would wager that the dog and pony show put on by the hacks will wind up costing the left even more seats next year. [/quote]

He said, as the GOP pisses in their jackboots.

69

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Maybe you should re-read what I’ve posted. I’ve never said Bush is without blame. My point has been that the majority (80%+) lies with the mayor and the governor. If they weren’t incompetent, their need for federal assistance would have been significantly less, and we wouldn’t even be talking about Bush. And it’s just that: federal ASSISTANCE. The primary responsibility lies with local gov’t. The reason so many of us think you’re an idiot is because you are trying to blame Bush for the entire thing, which makes you, well, an idiot.
[/quote]
Where do you come up with 80% of the blame is with local and state? To quote such and unmeasurable number is…how shall I say…LAME.

Futhermore, you have no idea what accountablity means. Mr. Bush is in charge of the federal government which means he is to blame for all of the federal governments failings. He is the one who either directly or indirectly influences the outcome of situations wether it be by appointing incompetant people to public office or by sitting on his thumb while people are dying. I don’t think now is the time for people to be assesing who is at fault–clearly, things went wrong all the way around and Mr. Bush is trying to belay the heat of this “Clusterfuck” he call’s an “Outstanding Job”.

70

I particularly like the reference in this article to Ray Nagin blaming everybody but himself. One thing is for sure, this was certainly a man made disaster as well as a natural disaster.

Don’t blame only feds

Crime rate, inept pols leveled New Orleans before the storm

Let’s take a break from the joy of Bush bashing to reveal the dirty little secret of New Orleans: Its local government deserves an F for its planning and response to Katrina. And one other thing: The New Orleans police force would be a joke if it weren’t a disgrace.
Yes, I know it’s impolitic to say such things while the suffering in the Big Easy is fresh and many cops risked their lives to save others. But now is the time to blow the whistle on the story line being repeated by rote across America: That the federal government ignored New Orleans because most of its residents are black and poor.

That narrative has all the accuracy of a historic novel: it takes two undisputed facts - the feds were slow and New Orleans is largely black and poor - and weaves in pure fiction to make the desired link.

The charge of racism-inspired foot-dragging isn’t just nonsense. It’s pernicious nonsense, as in destructive and malicious. You know that’s a fact because loony Howard Dean, the Democratic Party boss, is now peddling it. He’s joined by Jesse Jackson, who said the squalor in New Orleans “looks like the hull of a slave ship.” Oh, please.

If even a smidgen of the racism charges are true, President Bush should be shot. But before we give him his blindfold, let’s look at New Orleans before Katrina.

Start with crime. That looters ran unchecked after the hurricane isn’t surprising when you consider that criminals have had the run of the city for years.

It is a perennial contender for Murder Capital. The 264 homicides last year were a drop of only 11 from 2003 - and the first decline in five years.

New Orleans, with fewer than 500,000 people, had almost half the murders of New York, which had 570 homicides last year in a city of more than 8 million. Put another way, if New York had New Orleans’ murder rate, we would have more than 4,200 murders a year.

That the New Orleans police are hardly the Finest was proven by a shocking report yesterday: Nearly a third of New Orleans cops - some 500 of the 1,600 - are now unaccounted for. The department says some quit, but it doesn’t know where most of them are.

The top cop, Eddie Compass, has responded by offering all officers paid vacations to Las Vegas and Atlanta. Yes, that’s right - he is pulling all cops off the street, even while bodies lie in the open. Never in New York.

Then there’s Mayor Ray Nagin, a Democrat, who has blamed everybody but himself. Maybe he has forgotten his plans for dealing with Katrina.

Last July, his office prepared DVDs warning that, if the city ever had to be evacuated, residents were on their own. According toa July 24 article in The Times-Picayune (spotted by the Web’s Drudge Report), “Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm’s way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation.”

“You’re responsible for your safety, and you should be responsible for the person next to you,” one official said of the message.

And how’s this for preparation? Cops were told not to work on the day Katrina hit, one officer told The New York Times, but “to come in the next day, to save money on their budget.”

By all means, let’s investigate what went wrong in New Orleans. Let’s start in City Hall.

Originally published on September 7, 2005

71

[quote]JustTheFacts wrote:
bigflamer wrote:
JTF,

I don’t know how much training you’ve had in National Incedent Management System (NIMS), but responsibility for the coordination of disaster relief and rescue efforts start at the LOCAL level. The feds should be used in support of the incident commander on scene and local to the incident.

http://www.dhs.gov/dhspublic/index.jsp

Planning & Prevention

National Response Plan: Local/Federal Response Strategies & Coordination Structures

Emphasis on Local Response

All incidents are handled at the lowest possible organizational and jurisdictional level. Police, fire, public health and medical, emergency management, and other personnel are responsible for incident management at the local level. For those events that rise to the level of an Incident of National Significance, the Department of Homeland Security provides operational and/or resource coordination for Federal support to on-scene incident command structures.

Please place special emphasis on the part that states that the federal government SUPPORTS on scene incident command structures.

Continuing…

Proactive Federal Response to Catastrophic Events

The National Response Plan provides mechanisms for expedited and proactive Federal support to ensure critical life-saving assistance and incident containment capabilities are in place to respond quickly and efficiently to catastrophic incidents. These are high-impact, low-probability incidents, including natural disasters and terrorist attacks that result in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage, or disruption severely affecting the population, infrastructure, environment, economy, national morale, and/or government functions.[/quote]

As I stated before, these mechanisms must be put in place by the [u]local[/u] on scene incident cammand structure. I’m not claiming that FEMA’s shit didn’t stink in this disaster. But I believe it’s becoming glaringly obvious that local leadership was atrocious at best. I believe that without excellent local on scene leadership, federal mechanisms are difficult to implement.

72

[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:

Where do you come up with 80% of the blame is with local and state? To quote such and unmeasurable number is…how shall I say…LAME.

[/quote] It’s my OPINION [quote]

Futhermore, you have no idea what accountablity means. Mr. Bush is in charge of the federal government which means he is to blame for all of the federal governments failings. He is the one who either directly or indirectly influences the outcome of situations wether it be by appointing incompetant people to public office or by sitting on his thumb while people are dying. I don’t think now is the time for people to be assesing who is at fault–clearly, things went wrong all the way around and Mr. Bush is trying to belay the heat of this “Clusterfuck” he call’s an “Outstanding Job”. [/quote]
Ok, let me try one last time. If the local gov’t were even marginally competent, the federal gov’t would have had much less of a role (the way it’s supposed to work). Instead they sat on their thumbs in the days before Katrina stuck, and that’s why people died.

73

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Ok, let me try one last time. If the local gov’t were even marginally competent, the federal gov’t would have had much less of a role (the way it’s supposed to work). Instead they sat on their thumbs in the days before Katrina stuck, and that’s why people died.

[/quote]

Day. You wrote, “days before Katrina struck” as if they knew it was going to hit NO days in advance. This is false. The news didn’t project it hitting NO until late Saturday. The order to evacuate was given Sunday morning.

74

freemark, you don’t have a clue.

This is a natural disater. It is wrong to pin the blame on anyone for a natural disaster.

Has there been poor response to it?
Yes.

It started with the city and state. In spite of your political hopes and dreams they clearly failed miserably. Once they failed they put the Feds behind the 8ball.

FEMA made its share of mistakes too. I expect exactly these types of things from a bloated federal organization.

Blaming Bush for not micromanaging the relief efforts is idiotic or dirty politics.

Which game are you playing?

75

This is caca-poopoo.

NOBODY is ready for anything like this.

George Bush is to Blame…if we were smarter we would blame the terrorists. Wait…blame it on our own Firemen.

“Goerge Bush does not care about Black People” Lame…tell this to Condie Rice. Colin Powell…etc.

To all the people who blame our government…simply Fuck off.

76

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
freemark, you don’t have a clue.

This is a natural disater. It is wrong to pin the blame on anyone for a natural disaster.

Has there been poor response to it?
Yes.

It started with the city and state. In spite of your political hopes and dreams they clearly failed miserably. Once they failed they put the Feds behind the 8ball.

FEMA made its share of mistakes too. I expect exactly these types of things from a bloated federal organization.

Blaming Bush for not micromanaging the relief efforts is idiotic or dirty politics.

Which game are you playing?[/quote]

Playing the Hollywood game. Perhaps Hollywood Squares…

77

I often wondered why a city would be built below sea level while at the same time so in line of the sea.

Huh?

78

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Day. You wrote, “days before Katrina struck” as if they knew it was going to hit NO days in advance. This is false. The news didn’t project it hitting NO until late Saturday. The order to evacuate was given Sunday morning.[/quote]
President Bush declared a state of emergency Sat. AM, Katrina made landfall 8 AM Mon. By my count, that’s 2 days. Unless of course the mayor screwed around and didn’t order the evacuation until Sun AM.
Oh wait, I think you just made my point for me. Thank you.

79

[quote]freemark wrote:
I just love the “straw man” arguments from Reddog, Zap, elevationgain, and others in the Bush Worship Brigade. You keep claiming that Bush did not cause Katrina. Well glory be and praise the lord; you are right. So I guess you win the argument. Oh wait. Since no one this forum has actually claimed Bush caused Katrina your arguments are worthless and do not apply. But thanks for playing.

The Bush Worship Brigade’s arguments, unlike New Orleans, don’t hold water. So why do they put such an obvious “straw man” out there. The reason is that their position on the real argument, whether or not Bush failed as our national leader and whether or not he shares blame for the piss poor response to the aftermath of Katrina, is almost impossible to defend.
[/quote]

Just because you can spell it properly does not mean that you should be using “straw man” in sentences.

In fact, your attempts to lump everyone yuou disagree with into one big organism, and then create an argument that hardly anyone has made on this thread is the “straw man”.

I think you are living proof that ABBers look at this disaster as yet another chance to bash Bush. It’s all you can see.

Too bad America sees your pitiful attempts, and will vote even more Dems out of congress in 14 months. Just hide and watch through your beady little ABB eyes.

80

I think it is important to keep in mind the resources available to each level of government.

A state is only able to mobilize resources controlled at the state level.

A city is only able to mobilize resources controlled at the municipal level.

The federal government is the entity that has the power to move heaven and earth, commanding the resources of the nation to take action when needed.

By now, it should be clear that there were problems all over the place. It’s silly to say Bush deserves all the blame, but it also silly to say he deserves no blame.