Bush Not Aggressive Enough?

Why mealy mouth it? It was a very bad move. The army needed to be kept very carefully together. Keep your bad apples in one basket, and keep a good eye on the basket is very elementary tactics. The situation was not the same as in Germany. Look at it from the point of view of the guys who got demobilized; there was not a wealth of economic opportunity in a crushed economy. The disaffection was huge.

Disbanding the army was like throwing gasoline on a fire. If you don’t do that, of course you still have a problem of safely disposing of an explosive. But this is typically less wearing than living through an explosion.

As for working with an intact army, that the army was largely Ba’athist wasn’t as much of the problem as that it was mainly Sunni. As Iraq tries to decide if it is one state or three especially, it would take a lot of working with. In Germany nearly everybody was a Nazi, but at the end of the war that wasn’t such a big problem as it might have sounded like. Of course, we weren’t trying to occupy Germany on a shoestring. Anyhow, you can relatively easily sanitize an officer corps, but it is harder to add Shia and Kurds to the mix. We would still be stuck with considerable force building. But we would have had a better chance to do that force building.

As for whatever good will was gotten from whatever quarter by disbanding the army, I don’t see much of it left.

[quote]pookie wrote:
To me, it justs appears that there was a complete lack of planning for the post-war events. [/quote]

I’m beginning to suspect they knew that if they had tried to plan the post-war period at all seriously, they would have given up on the entire project. So they carefully didn’t plan anything.

There is also the considerable possibility that if the army had not been disbanded, there might have been greater Sunni participation in the elections, and we would not now be in quite so precarious a situation wrt civil war due to Sunni rejection of federalism.

Disarm them yes, disband them no.

Bush not aggressive enough?!

Try some Kegel exercises!

[quote]endgamer711 wrote:
pookie wrote:
To me, it justs appears that there was a complete lack of planning for the post-war events.

I’m beginning to suspect they knew that if they had tried to plan the post-war period at all seriously, they would have given up on the entire project. So they carefully didn’t plan anything.[/quote]

Are you kidding with this statement? They “carefully” didn’t think things through? Well, no shit. I personally never put our president’s gung-ho, yee haw, shoot first and ask questions later attitude on a pedestal. Meanwhile, it seemed there were some who actually applauded this action…not thinking things through before acting. What a crazy way to rule a nation, huh?

[quote]WMD wrote:
hedo wrote:
Pookie

I’ll disagee with the land issue. They need a base and they need to build support among the population. If they can’t hold ground they will lose face. They lost it along with any sort of ability to win over the population. All they have now is fear and the fear is falling away. The locals are tipping off the Iraqi police and coalition forces.

Fallujah was thier last gasp as a military force. Now they are nothing more then criminals and terrorists who see the handwriting on the wall.

Hedo does not understand low-intensity conflict (this is the correct military term). The terrorists groups are not conventional armies in any sense therefore are in no need of holding territory the way a conventional army would. They are also not traditional guerrilla rebels in that they pretty much could care less about winning the hearts and minds of average Iraqis. Pookie makes a good point: Iraq is a country with artificial borders, created by England, France, America, et al, between the world wars, without any consideration of ethnic, tribal, religious or linguistic differences. So now we have the word of the day, quagmire, in Iraq.

That little op-ed piece at the beginning of the thread is as disconnected from reality as the Bush Admin. How about an op-ed piece from someone who has actually been to Iraq and can therefore report or opine using some actual real world info?

WMD[/quote]

Don’t understand low intensity conflict huh?

What metric would you use to define the terrorist position. They have lost, they just don’t know it yet. Either do you but give it time. Logisitcs, resupply, attrition, support of the populace. It may not mean anything to the terrorists but it ignoring it has been their detriment.

By any measure the terrorists cannot and will not win in Iraq. It’s basic strategy at the remedial level. Of course if you choose to ignore it to make you argument then you need to pull your metrics from somewhere else such as the msm.

I think I understand strategy a little more clearly then you think.

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Does the word ILLEGAL mean anything to you? We have a process by which someone can immigrate, either follow it, or stay home. It’s not about race, it’s not about money, it’s about the LAW[/quote]

What is it about illegal immigrants you dislike so much?

I don’t think it’s just about the law, since you’re not complaining about speeders on the highways or illegal music downloads or any other illegal act commited in the day to day. Invoking the law seems to be a convenient cover for some deeper reason.

[quote]hedo wrote:
Don’t understand low intensity conflict huh?

What metric would you use to define the terrorist position. They have lost, they just don’t know it yet. Either do you but give it time. Logisitcs, resupply, attrition, support of the populace. It may not mean anything to the terrorists but it ignoring it has been their detriment.[/quote]

I’ll disagree. Again. :slight_smile:

Terrorism is a tool, not a state or a race. Even if you could press a button and have all the terrorists now in Iraq suddenly die of a heart attack, you still wouldn’t have “won”.

As soon as someone in the population got pissed enough about anything to think “I’m gonna kill me some Merkans!” You’d have “terrorists” again. It’s not like you can get them to sign a peace agreement. They respect no law, no treaty, nothing.

As technology evolves, it gets easier all the time for a man, or a small group of men, to cause enormous damage. Nowadays, anyone can learn how to make a bomb just by downloading a few texts of the internet. If you know a little chemistry, you can even balance out the ingredients and reduce the risks of blowing yourself up in your backyard shed.

The only way they “lose” is if you manage to actually leave Iraq with a stable, peaceful and democratic state firmly in place. With Iraqis of all affiliations living together in relative harmony.

Until that happens, even if they suffer setbacks, if some operations are twarthed, etc. they can simply wait and try again. Hell, it’s not like suicide bombers are a reusable ressource anyway, and they don’t seem to be having to much trouble renewing them.

[quote]By any measure the terrorists cannot and will not win in Iraq. It’s basic strategy at the remedial level. Of course if you choose to ignore it to make you argument then you need to pull your metrics from somewhere else such as the msm.

I think I understand strategy a little more clearly then you think. [/quote]

Your strategy is probably fine, but I think the terrorists are playing a different game altogether. All they need to do is prolong this long enough for America to either quit because they can’t afford the war anymore (which could take many years, since you’re a very rich country) OR until the american people demand that the troops be pulled out because no progress is being made and the bodybags keep coming. Your current administration will never bow to those pressures, but the terrorists know that they’ll get a new chance every 4 years.

Bin Laden has once stated they he started envisioning the fall of the WTC in Lebanon in 1982… they’re patient, they know time is on their side.

A third possibility would be that some other world crisis (North Korea, Iran, etc.) would require you to pull out some troops, giving the insurgents even more leeway.

I do not think that the insurgents necessarily have to run out of supplies.

If the Iranians play it clever they will make sure the insurgents have all the means they need to go on, until Iran has no further need to keep the american forces busy, because they have completed their nuclear weapons programm.

[quote]pookie wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Does the word ILLEGAL mean anything to you? We have a process by which someone can immigrate, either follow it, or stay home. It’s not about race, it’s not about money, it’s about the LAW

What is it about illegal immigrants you dislike so much?

I don’t think it’s just about the law, since you’re not complaining about speeders on the highways or illegal music downloads or any other illegal act commited in the day to day. Invoking the law seems to be a convenient cover for some deeper reason.[/quote]

Agreed. I am sure there is someone jaywalking as we speak and Judge Dread hasn’t mentioned a word about it.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
pookie wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Does the word ILLEGAL mean anything to you? We have a process by which someone can immigrate, either follow it, or stay home. It’s not about race, it’s not about money, it’s about the LAW

What is it about illegal immigrants you dislike so much?

I don’t think it’s just about the law, since you’re not complaining about speeders on the highways or illegal music downloads or any other illegal act commited in the day to day. Invoking the law seems to be a convenient cover for some deeper reason.

Agreed. I am sure there is someone jaywalking as we speak and Judge Dread hasn’t mentioned a word about it.[/quote]

I suppose this could have something to do with it: The High Cost of Cheap Labor

In a nut shell they are trespassing, and your damn right I resent it. I would equate it to somebody coming into my house without my permission, & taking a shit on my kitchen table. I could care less where they are from. Mexico, Canada, Peru, Ireland, if they are here illegally they have broken the law & should be punished. Also IMO anybody that hires them should pay a huge fine & lose thier business license

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
Professor X wrote:
pookie wrote:
reddog6376 wrote:
Does the word ILLEGAL mean anything to you? We have a process by which someone can immigrate, either follow it, or stay home. It’s not about race, it’s not about money, it’s about the LAW

What is it about illegal immigrants you dislike so much?

I don’t think it’s just about the law, since you’re not complaining about speeders on the highways or illegal music downloads or any other illegal act commited in the day to day. Invoking the law seems to be a convenient cover for some deeper reason.

Agreed. I am sure there is someone jaywalking as we speak and Judge Dread hasn’t mentioned a word about it.

I suppose this could have something to do with it: The High Cost of Cheap Labor

In a nut shell they are trespassing, and your damn right I resent it. I would equate it to somebody coming into my house without my permission, & taking a shit on my kitchen table. I could care less where they are from. Mexico, Canada, Peru, Ireland, if they are here illegally they have broken the law & should be punished. Also IMO anybody that hires them should pay a huge fine & lose thier business license[/quote]

Hmmm, if no one was hiring them and they could find no work and no place to live, there would be a huge decrease in immigration. The truth is, regardless of the claims that article makes, there are businesses saving thousands (if not millions) by hiring illegal immigrants and paying them less than most Americans would settle for. Taking a shit on your kitchen table? Only if that is a translation for who picked the fruit that you bought that is sitting on that table.

What exactly is the method for gaining citizenship for immigrants from Mexico?

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
I suppose this could have something to do with it: http://www.cis.org/articles/2004/fiscalrelease.html[/quote]

The article just counts the loss in taxes and the costs of services provided.

Nowhere do they factor all the savings that companies make by employing illegal immigrants and paying them below minimum wage and giving few or no benefits. Factoring in that side of the equation might help balance out that 10$BN figure.

I will agree with your last sentence that companies should be fined for hiring illegal immigrants (or forced to give them the same conditions as legal residents). Oddly, you don’t see many companies lobbying for such laws to be passed… Could it be because they like it just the way it is?

Attacking the immigrants themselves for the problem is misguided. If you were poor and had trouble providing for your family, and knew that just across a border some 100 miles away, there is a country where you can easily get a job and feed your family and get them healthcare and such, you’d probably go for it. I don’t know if you’ve got kids, but a sick or hungry kid can change your perspective on things.

If no one in the U.S. hired illegals or gave them services, they’d stop coming.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
WMD wrote:
Feeling a bit xenophobic, are we? How’d we get from Bush not aggressive enough to let’s shoot the wetbacks? I live in Texas, have worked and lived side by side with illegal Mexican immigrants and they are to a person decent hard working people. Perfect Americans in other words.

I believe that this area (illigal immigration) in one of Bush’s failings and is not nearly aggressive enough. I’m not looking to shoot the wetbacks, I’m looking to shoot any and all individuals willing to invade our country. Period. Why is it that they don’t want to immigrate legaly? Something to hide?

What’s your beef with them, that they come here and do the work Americans disdain, for a lot less money than any American would accept? Is it anything like wanting to keep the black men away from the white women?

Again I repeat that I have no beef with honest hardworking LEGAL immigrants from any corner of the world. I have known many hardworking individuals from many backgrounds, I am pro LEGAL immigration. The last statement was just a bit stupid. Grow up.

This nation is great because of all the different people who have come here and added themselves to our mix. What kind of base ingnorance and stupidity fules this kind of hatred? This is one of the most low down things I’ve ever read on this site.
WMD

I agree that this is the greatest nation in the world because of our diversity. I was thinking of that the other day as I was watching “windtalkers” while pounding out the miles on the treadmill. We threw the Japanese a real curvball because of our diversity. Good movie. A real good example of how our diversity has made this country great.

Is it ignorant and stupid for me to want immigrants to come here legaly? What’s wrong with coming thru the damn gate? You’ll find that I’m a big proponent of LEGAL immigration as is alot of other conservatives, we just want to control the border. Is it bad to want some semblance of control at our border? The great Ronald Reagan once said “A nation that can’t control it’s own borders, isn’t much of a nation at all”.

I think this is one of the dumbest assesments of a thread I’ve read. You have completely shot your damn mouth off without thinking through, proving youself to be ignorant, stupid, and full of hate.

My football coach used to say “diaria of the mouth denotes constipation of the brain”

Thanks for playing douchebag.[/quote]

So I’m stupid and full of hate because YOU said you want a big wall with people willing to shoot to kill on it and I disagree with that bit of xenophobia? Please reread your original post. You are the one wanting to shoot people. Who am I hating exactly? Truly you have a dizzying intellect. And I wish one of you guys would come up with a new insult besides douchebag. But way to keep the tone of the debate high, man. It truly proves your superiority.

Oh, and please explain to me what I didn’t think through? It should be quite edifying to hear from an expert on immigration like yourself.

I don’t have a problem with legal immigration either. I’m pretty sure most of the people coming across illegally are not criminals (although some indeed are). The process of legal immigration into this country is difficult, expensive and full of red tape. That is why your average impoverished Mexican can’t afford to go through legal channels. What lengths would you go to to feed your family or yourself?

I think your football coach was trying to tell you something.

WMD

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Hmmm, if no one was hiring them and they could find no work and no place to live, there would be a huge decrease in immigration.
[/quote]
I’m glad you agree with me. Fine the shit out those that hire illegals, they’ll stop getting jobs, and the problem mostly goes away.

[quote]
The truth is, regardless of the claims that article makes, there are businesses saving thousands (if not millions) by hiring illegal immigrants and paying them less than most Americans would settle for. [/quote]
Which is against the law, and terribly under-prosecuted. [quote]
Taking a shit on your kitchen table? Only if that is a translation for who picked the fruit that you bought that is sitting on that table.[/quote]

They’re trespassing, plain & simple. I don’t care why or how.

What exactly is the method for gaining citizenship for immigrants from Mexico? [/quote]
I have no idea. But it’s our country, if our law says they have to stand on their head & recite “the Cat in the Hat”, then that’s what they have to do.

For the record, I’m in favor of a guest worker program which would allow foreigners to come here to work. It should be simpler than immigration, but still allow us to track who they are, and where they are. All US labor laws (including minumum wage) should apply to them, they should have to pay US taxes on their incomes. I’m not against anybody coming to America, as long as they do it legally.

[quote]reddog6376 wrote:
WMD wrote:

Feeling a bit xenophobic, are we? How’d we get from Bush not aggressive enough to let’s shoot the wetbacks? I live in Texas, have worked and lived side by side with illegal Mexican immigrants and they are to a person decent hard working people. Perfect Americans in other words.

What’s your beef with them, that they come here and do the work Americans disdain, for a lot less money than any American would accept? Is it anything like wanting to keep the black men away from the white women?

This nation is great because of all the different people who have come here and added themselves to our mix. What kind of base ingnorance and stupidity fules this kind of hatred? This is one of the most low down things I’ve ever read on this site.

WMD

Does the word ILLEGAL mean anything to you? We have a process by which someone can immigrate, either follow it, or stay home. It’s not about race, it’s not about money, it’s about the LAW[/quote]

Yes the word illegal means something to me. Like I said in another response immigration to this country has been made so difficult and expensive that it’s out of reach for alot of people. So they swim across and do our dirty work. Big deal. I also have no problem with enforcing our laws and encouraging as many as can afford it to go by the legal route. My issue and my point, which you seem to have missed, is with those who want a giant wall manned by people willing to shoot illegal immigrants. This is racism and xenophobia at its ugliest.

WMD

[quote]pookie wrote:
The article just counts the loss in taxes and the costs of services provided.

Nowhere do they factor all the savings that companies make by employing illegal immigrants and paying them below minimum wage and giving few or no benefits. Factoring in that side of the equation might help balance out that 10$BN figure.[/quote] And that justifies the companies breaking the law? [quote]

I will agree with your last sentence that companies should be fined for hiring illegal immigrants (or forced to give them the same conditions as legal residents). Oddly, you don’t see many companies lobbying for such laws to be passed… Could it be because they like it just the way it is? [/quote] I’m sure it is. Tom Tancredo for President.

[quote]
Attacking the immigrants themselves for the problem is misguided. If you were poor and had trouble providing for your family, and knew that just across a border some 100 miles away, there is a country where you can easily get a job and feed your family and get them healthcare and such, you’d probably go for it. I don’t know if you’ve got kids, but a sick or hungry kid can change your perspective on things.[/quote]

The immigrants are part of the problem, and part of the solution needs to address them. Poor immigrants have been coming to this country for a couple of centuries, and the huge majority of them didn’t resort to breaking the law. [quote]

If no one in the U.S. hired illegals or gave them services, they’d stop coming.[/quote]

Absolutely true. Now how do we, as a country, make that happen.

[quote]WMD wrote:

I don’t have a problem with legal immigration either. I’m pretty sure most of the people coming across illegally are not criminals (although some indeed are). WMD[/quote]

Illigally: ad., contrary to or in violation of the law. In an illegal manner. Criminally.

My point is, if they are illegal immigrants, they are, by definition, a criminal.

[quote]bigflamer wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Yeah, that was full of “non-hatred”. I am not for illegal immigration. However, I think there are better ways to handle this than the sentiment that people need to be shot for trying to live a better life here.

My understanding is that the current legal process is fairly extensive (I don’t have exact facts of how long it takes to gain citizenship). I would guess that if this was just a simple matter of paperwork, there wouldn’t be such a large problem.

My point Prof is that nobody has a right to violate another countries border no matter how good their intentions are. Are you justifying illigal immigration because it’s difficult to immigrate legaly? That’s retarted.

Anyone trying to violate our countries borders then fall into one of these catagories:

-They are too lazy to immigrate LEGALY

-They are hiding something that would prevent them from immigrating LEGALY

-They are terrorists, and therefore cannot immigrate LEGALY

-They are too stupid to go through the process of immigrating LEGALLY

Don’t try to water down the issue by feeding me touchy feely shit like “their trying to get a better life”, it doesn’t give anyone the right to disregard our laws. Period.

If I was violating another countries border I would expect to be shot at. Getting real damn aggresive on illigal immigration and controlling our borders is an important aspect of the war on terror.[/quote]

You’re a real black and white kind of guy. You know all the motivations of all the illegals coming into our country, too.

[quote]
Don’t try to water down the issue by feeding me touchy feely shit like “their trying to get a better life”, it doesn’t give anyone the right to disregard our laws. Period.[/quote] Oh, I wouldn’t dare try to water down this complex issue with compassion. You wouldn’t be able to fathom it. Here in Texas we live in terror of the illegal Mexicans and their suitcase bombs. You know, because they come across with nothing but the clothes on their backs. We haven’t figured out where they’re hiding the bombs, but I’ll let you know when they do.

[quote]
If I was violating another countries border I would expect to be shot at.[/quote] One can only hope…

WMD

[quote]WMD wrote:
Yes the word illegal means something to me. Like I said in another response immigration to this country has been made so difficult and expensive that it’s out of reach for alot of people. So they swim across and do our dirty work. Big deal. [/quote]
Yes, it’s a big deal. $10 Billion/year big. [quote]

I also have no problem with enforcing our laws and encouraging as many as can afford it to go by the legal route. [/quote]
So laws should only be followed when we can afford it? I alway kinda figured they applied to everyone equally.

[quote]
My issue and my point, which you seem to have missed, is with those who want a giant wall manned by people willing to shoot illegal immigrants. This is racism and xenophobia at its ugliest.

WMD[/quote]

I never said anything about shooting anybody.