Bush: New Orleans and Iraq

[quote]Headhunter wrote:

The real victims of Katrina are the tax payers of this country. Why, for ex, some factory worker in Seattle is supposed to pay for the homes and shit of people in New Orleans is beyond comprehension.

I know, I know, the tired old Lib arguments: “What if YOU need help some day?!?” Uh, that doesn’t give me the right to plunder my neighbors.

“How about caring about your fellow human beings?” I do care — that’s why I oppose forcing some people to help others, like cattle driven to market.

Altruism — the curse of humanity.

[/quote]

That is so wrong in so many ways, I’m not even going to go there.

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

A hurricane hits a city, and YOU feel victimized because ‘your’ taxes are going towards rebuilding peoples’ shattered lives? Poor you! Come ON.

Even your definition of altruism is wrong. Altruism focuses on a motivation to help others or a want to do good without reward, while DUTY focuses on the moral obligation to help others.

Altruism is a selfless voluntary act of help.

You’re talking about DUTY which is a forced act of help, so you’ve got the definitions mixed up.

On a second note, how much taxes are being wasted on this whole debacle in Iraq? It’s all just a bunch of big boys with big toys, playing wargames over power, territory and oil, that’s all that war is. You should be more pissed at taxes going to waste on things like that, instead of taxes being used to help people in need.

I just felt like ranting about this here…

Ever since time immemorial, humans have found countless creative ways to kill each other. Starting from clubs, rocks and spears, going on to swords and guns, and gradually progressing to nukes, biological and chemical weapons, and fuck knows what else!

I guess it’s a part of human nature to be violent, tribal and territorial, and modern civilization is just a facade over our base instincts. Guys just like to fight. But there should be a better way to express the violent/competitive side of our natures, instead of war and killing each other - for example through sports and martial arts.

An interesting article I think regrding the media’s perverse “reporting” of Katrina. The article leaves me with a question; in our society, where media can and hold government responsible, who holds the media responsible?


http://article.nationalreview.com/print/?q=NmEyNjMzMWQ1OTI3ZjhiMmE5YWNkZDc2MmM2NDQ1NTg=

Storm of Malpractice
[i]Katrina was a media disaster.

By Jonah Goldberg

Last week, according to LexisNexis, there were more than 2,000 newspaper and wire stories on Hurricane Katrina, along with blanket coverage on cable news.

This hurricane of hurricane retrospectives was no doubt long in the works, as editors like to put stories “in the can” for vacation time. The media seemed to cover every angle, particularly the Bush administration’s missteps in response to the disaster. And while some might quibble with this or that characterization or selection of facts, ultimately the media were doing what they�??re supposed to do: hold government accountable.

But there was one thing missing from the coverage of this natural, social, economic, and political disaster: the fact that Katrina represented an unmitigated media disaster as well.

Few of us can forget the reports from two years ago. CNN warned that there were “bands of rapists, going block to block.” Snipers were reportedly shooting at medical personnel. Bodies at the Superdome, we were told, were stacked like cordwood. The Washington Post proclaimed in a banner headline that New Orleans was “A City of Despair and Lawlessness” and insisted in an editorial that “looters and carjackers, some of them armed, have run rampant.” Fox News anchor John Gibson said there were “all kinds of reports of looting, fires and violence. Thugs shooting at rescue crews.” These reports actually hindered rescue efforts, as emergency crews wasted valuable time avoiding phantom snipers.

TV reporters raced to the bottom to see who could moralistically preen the most. Interviewers transformed into outright scolds of administration officials. Meanwhile, the distortions, exaggerations and flat-out fictions being offered by New Orleans officials were accelerated and amplified by the media echo chamber. Glib predictions of 10,000 dead, and the chief of police’s insistence that there were “little babies getting raped,” swirled around the media like so much free-flowing sewage.

It was as though journalistic skepticism of government officials was reserved for the White House, and everyone else got a free pass.

Of course the Bush administration made serious mistakes - politically, logistically and otherwise - in a difficult situation. But Katrina unleashed a virus of sanctimony and credulity for urban legends almost without precedent.

Reports of the Superdome being a slaughterhouse were repeated, even though dozens of news organizations had access to the building. CBS alone had 200 people in New Orleans, and yet it couldn’t find those bodies stacked to the ceiling or a single rape victim from the roving bands of Mad Max-style marauders. That’s because nobody was raped or murdered in the Superdome.

The deluge in New Orleans elicited a deluge of wish fulfillment in the media, as though the hurricane was a biblical sign that something was very wrong in George W. Bush�??s America. “Everything changed” because of Katrina, insisted CNN�??s Anderson Cooper. Translation: We�??re going to tell the story we want to tell about the country from now on. Race and class became the chief prisms for viewing the disaster. Katrina was even portrayed as the result of global warming, which (of course!) is Bush’s fault.

During last week’s bonfire of Katrina navel-gazing, there was virtually no mention of the hyperventilating and inaccurate media reports, even though these facts are by now well-established. Terms such as “rape gangs” and “snipers” do not appear in virtually any of the mainstream media’s retrospectives. It’s as if it never happened.

Why? I think the answer is complex, but three factors are surely involved. One, the media are often good watchdogs of government but rarely of themselves. While recycling old complaints about government is permissible, dwelling on your colleagues’ failures - or your own - just isn’t done.

Two, the media have convinced themselves that they did a wonderful job of covering Katrina, showering themselves with awards in response. Dan Rather spoke for his colleagues when he said, “Everybody across the board did such a good job.” It was one of the “quintessential great moments in television news … right there with the Nixon-Kennedy debates, the Kennedy assassination, Watergate coverage, you name it.”

Well, as the disgraced former news anchor might say, that makes as much sense as a cat working as a rocking-chair inspector.

And, lastly, journalists are invested in the dominant narratives of Katrina, and they’ll be damned if they’ll let go, particularly if it comes at the expense of their own credibility, or if it makes Bush’s mistakes seem a little less horrendous.

No, it would be better, and much easier, to print the legend.

© 2007 Tribune Media Services, Inc.[/i]

[quote]JohnnyBlaze wrote:

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

[/quote]

Since its my money and my taxes.

Somehow, being a beast of burden for the troubles of others is just not an appealing lifestyle.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

Since its my money and my taxes.

Somehow, being a beast of burden for the troubles of others is just not an appealing lifestyle.

[/quote]

Unfortunately for you…you have no choice in being a “beast of burden” since you pay taxes. Sad that you value “your” money over human life. If thats your stance,then why do you pay taxes?

Do you feel this way towards “your” money being wasted on the military? Unecessary wars and wounded soldiers? Education? World Trade Center efforts?? These are the troubles of others?

It scares me how selfish people are when it comes to “taking care of our own.” You say all of this and I bet you also support Bush invading Iraq. Sounds like hypocrite territory to me. And to think that you’re an educator…we’re doomed…lol.

As Big_Boss suggested, we live in a society, which imposes duties and responsibilities on us. Once you turn of age you assume these responsibilites.

I don’t know what the alternative is, but I guess you could exit the country and attempt to set up your domain on the world someplace else.

It’s a tough balance… supremacy of individual rights and freedoms bounded by the realities of serving the needs of society to some degree.

[quote]JohnnyBlaze wrote:
Headhunter wrote:

The real victims of Katrina are the tax payers of this country. Why, for ex, some factory worker in Seattle is supposed to pay for the homes and shit of people in New Orleans is beyond comprehension.

I know, I know, the tired old Lib arguments: “What if YOU need help some day?!?” Uh, that doesn’t give me the right to plunder my neighbors.

“How about caring about your fellow human beings?” I do care — that’s why I oppose forcing some people to help others, like cattle driven to market.

Altruism — the curse of humanity.

That is so wrong in so many ways, I’m not even going to go there.

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

A hurricane hits a city, and YOU feel victimized because ‘your’ taxes are going towards rebuilding peoples’ shattered lives? Poor you! Come ON.

Even your definition of altruism is wrong. Altruism focuses on a motivation to help others or a want to do good without reward, while DUTY focuses on the moral obligation to help others.

Altruism is a selfless voluntary act of help.

You’re talking about DUTY which is a forced act of help, so you’ve got the definitions mixed up.

On a second note, how much taxes are being wasted on this whole debacle in Iraq? It’s all just a bunch of big boys with big toys, playing wargames over power, territory and oil, that’s all that war is. You should be more pissed at taxes going to waste on things like that, instead of taxes being used to help people in need.[/quote]

What’s the difference between altruism and benevolence? Why do we use two words here?

LOL!!! You think altruism is VOLUNTARY? A moral commandment is NOT voluntary, its compulsory (if you plan on being moral). You have to follow the code to be moral.

Altruism is impossible to follow, unless you believe self-immolation is moral.

Selfishness is the only rational moral code, primarily because its natural. And I don’t mean beastly selfishness (which is altruistic actually), but rational and selfish trade between individuals.

[quote]vroom wrote:
As Big_Boss suggested, we live in a society, which imposes duties and responsibilities on us. Once you turn of age you assume these responsibilites.

I don’t know what the alternative is, but I guess you could exit the country and attempt to set up your domain on the world someplace else.

It’s a tough balance… supremacy of individual rights and freedoms bounded by the realities of serving the needs of society to some degree.[/quote]

Sounds like a society of moral cannibals to me. Why should the needs of someone else supercede your own needs? Doesn’t the act of accepting your service make the recipients vicious and selfish, by your own definitions? Does morality exist to service vice?

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

Since its my money and my taxes.

Somehow, being a beast of burden for the troubles of others is just not an appealing lifestyle.

[/quote]

Is your face on it? I thought you were a Christian.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
LOL!!! You think altruism is VOLUNTARY? A moral commandment is NOT voluntary, its compulsory (if you plan on being moral). You have to follow the code to be moral. [/quote]

You’re not displaying much thought here my friend.

If people didn’t get a kick out of altruism, they wouldn’t do it in the first place. If you give money to charity, it’s not simply because you’re nice and care about others. It’s mainly because it makes you feel good. There’s been plenty of research in this field and all came out to the same conclusion: that there isn’t much altruism in altruistic acts.

Human nature drives us to help each other, and thank God for that. Imagine a world where a mum didn’t care for her baby or nobody took compassion of the poor kid who’s starving.

If you don’t think wealth should be redistributed at gunpoint, fair enough. But stop that nonsense about altruism being involuntary!

And how about giving us your opinion on the topic of the thread? Can you do that?

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

Since its my money and my taxes.

Somehow, being a beast of burden for the troubles of others is just not an appealing lifestyle.

Unfortunately for you…you have no choice in being a “beast of burden” since you pay taxes. Sad that you value “your” money over human life. If thats your stance,then why do you pay taxes?

Do you feel this way towards “your” money being wasted on the military? Unecessary wars and wounded soldiers? Education? World Trade Center efforts?? These are the troubles of others?

It scares me how selfish people are when it comes to “taking care of our own.” You say all of this and I bet you also support Bush invading Iraq. Sounds like hypocrite territory to me. And to think that you’re an educator…we’re doomed…lol.[/quote]

Insults aside, why is it moral to force some individuals to pay for the actions/needs of others? Can individuals be forced to be moral?

You want to introduce force (government action) into a moral argument. Morality being forced upon individuals means that the individuals are slaves. A gun is not an argument, its an instrument of coercion.

The moment you introduce force as a moral argument, as equivalent to reason, you announce that you are a barbarian. I shudder to think of you as…well, just about anything.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

Since its my money and my taxes.

Somehow, being a beast of burden for the troubles of others is just not an appealing lifestyle.

Unfortunately for you…you have no choice in being a “beast of burden” since you pay taxes. Sad that you value “your” money over human life. If thats your stance,then why do you pay taxes?

Do you feel this way towards “your” money being wasted on the military? Unecessary wars and wounded soldiers? Education? World Trade Center efforts?? These are the troubles of others?

It scares me how selfish people are when it comes to “taking care of our own.” You say all of this and I bet you also support Bush invading Iraq. Sounds like hypocrite territory to me. And to think that you’re an educator…we’re doomed…lol.

Insults aside, why is it moral to force some individuals to pay for the actions/needs of others? Can individuals be forced to be moral?

You want to introduce force (government action) into a moral argument. Morality being forced upon individuals means that the individuals are slaves. A gun is not an argument, its an instrument of coercion.

The moment you introduce force as a moral argument, as equivalent to reason, you announce that you are a barbarian. I shudder to think of you as…well, just about anything.

[/quote]

All this barbarian bullshit doesn’t support the argument being made…by paying taxes you involuntarily assist whomever/wherever the money is applied to. Its not forcing morality on anyone. My argument is that its sad that people lack the morality to want to help their fellow man regardless if its forced or not. With the argument you’re making, you announce that you’re a caveman reinventing the wheel. Idiot. You should shudder.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

Since its my money and my taxes.

Somehow, being a beast of burden for the troubles of others is just not an appealing lifestyle.

Unfortunately for you…you have no choice in being a “beast of burden” since you pay taxes. Sad that you value “your” money over human life. If thats your stance,then why do you pay taxes?

Do you feel this way towards “your” money being wasted on the military? Unecessary wars and wounded soldiers? Education? World Trade Center efforts?? These are the troubles of others?

It scares me how selfish people are when it comes to “taking care of our own.” You say all of this and I bet you also support Bush invading Iraq. Sounds like hypocrite territory to me. And to think that you’re an educator…we’re doomed…lol.

Insults aside, why is it moral to force some individuals to pay for the actions/needs of others? Can individuals be forced to be moral?

You want to introduce force (government action) into a moral argument. Morality being forced upon individuals means that the individuals are slaves. A gun is not an argument, its an instrument of coercion.

The moment you introduce force as a moral argument, as equivalent to reason, you announce that you are a barbarian. I shudder to think of you as…well, just about anything.

[/quote]

All this barbarian bullshit doesn’t support the argument being made…or answer any of the questions asked above. By paying taxes you involuntarily assist whomever/wherever the money is applied to. You seem to have no problem with that. Its not forcing morality on anyone. My argument is that its sad that people lack the morality to want to help their fellow man regardless if its forced or not. What,you shudder at the fact that I don’t value my money more than human life?? Shame on me.

I’m sorry to dissapoint.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

Since its my money and my taxes.

Somehow, being a beast of burden for the troubles of others is just not an appealing lifestyle.

Unfortunately for you…you have no choice in being a “beast of burden” since you pay taxes. Sad that you value “your” money over human life. If thats your stance,then why do you pay taxes?

Do you feel this way towards “your” money being wasted on the military? Unecessary wars and wounded soldiers? Education? World Trade Center efforts?? These are the troubles of others?

It scares me how selfish people are when it comes to “taking care of our own.” You say all of this and I bet you also support Bush invading Iraq. Sounds like hypocrite territory to me. And to think that you’re an educator…we’re doomed…lol.

Insults aside, why is it moral to force some individuals to pay for the actions/needs of others? Can individuals be forced to be moral?

You want to introduce force (government action) into a moral argument. Morality being forced upon individuals means that the individuals are slaves. A gun is not an argument, its an instrument of coercion.

The moment you introduce force as a moral argument, as equivalent to reason, you announce that you are a barbarian. I shudder to think of you as…well, just about anything.

All this barbarian bullshit doesn’t support the argument being made…by paying taxes you involuntarily assist whomever/wherever the money is applied to. Its not forcing morality on anyone. My argument is that its sad that people lack the morality to want to help their fellow man regardless if its forced or not. With the argument you’re making, you announce that you’re a caveman reinventing the wheel. Idiot. You should shudder.
[/quote]

You either believe in freedom or you don’t. Individuals have to be given the freedom to choose to help others. If they do not have that freedom, they are slaves. The money taken from them by force is extorted wealth.

Look, if you want to believe in totalitarianism, that’s fine. Just don’t attempt to pass it off as somehow moral. Its not; its simply a hidden desire to kill.

You say that it is sad that people lack the morality to want to help their fellow man whether forced or not. You then propose to extort money from them using government power. To you, the hopes and dreams of individuals should be at the mercy of bureaucrats who decide that the money to achieve those hopes and dreams is really theirs and they can use it as they will, as long as its to help others. The hopes and dreams of the victims of this scheme mean nothing; the needs of others come first.

Such a scheme is evil. It is actually designed not to help others but to crush those hopes and dreams. It is anti-life. It seeks to crush the best among men to benefit its worst. It is a morality of death.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

Since its my money and my taxes.

Somehow, being a beast of burden for the troubles of others is just not an appealing lifestyle.

Unfortunately for you…you have no choice in being a “beast of burden” since you pay taxes. Sad that you value “your” money over human life. If thats your stance,then why do you pay taxes?

Do you feel this way towards “your” money being wasted on the military? Unecessary wars and wounded soldiers? Education? World Trade Center efforts?? These are the troubles of others?

It scares me how selfish people are when it comes to “taking care of our own.” You say all of this and I bet you also support Bush invading Iraq. Sounds like hypocrite territory to me. And to think that you’re an educator…we’re doomed…lol.

Insults aside, why is it moral to force some individuals to pay for the actions/needs of others? Can individuals be forced to be moral?

You want to introduce force (government action) into a moral argument. Morality being forced upon individuals means that the individuals are slaves. A gun is not an argument, its an instrument of coercion.

The moment you introduce force as a moral argument, as equivalent to reason, you announce that you are a barbarian. I shudder to think of you as…well, just about anything.

All this barbarian bullshit doesn’t support the argument being made…by paying taxes you involuntarily assist whomever/wherever the money is applied to. Its not forcing morality on anyone. My argument is that its sad that people lack the morality to want to help their fellow man regardless if its forced or not. With the argument you’re making, you announce that you’re a caveman reinventing the wheel. Idiot. You should shudder.

You either believe in freedom or you don’t. Individuals have to be given the freedom to choose to help others. If they do not have that freedom, they are slaves. The money taken from them by force is extorted wealth.

Look, if you want to believe in totalitarianism, that’s fine. Just don’t attempt to pass it off as somehow moral. Its not; its simply a hidden desire to kill.

You say that it is sad that people lack the morality to want to help their fellow man whether forced or not. You then propose to extort money from them using government power. To you, the hopes and dreams of individuals should be at the mercy of bureaucrats who decide that the money to achieve those hopes and dreams is really theirs and they can use it as they will, as long as its to help others. The hopes and dreams of the victims of this scheme mean nothing; the needs of others come first.

Such a scheme is evil. It is actually designed not to help others but to crush those hopes and dreams. It is anti-life. It seeks to crush the best among men to benefit its worst. It is a morality of death.

[/quote]

Ok,your ramblings are starting to go into left field…How does my views show a belief in totalitarianism? If thats the case,everyone that pays taxes supports totalitarianism. I think your belief in the value of money and property over human life speaks for itself…and you’re preaching about my “anti-life” views.

Save your b.s. for your students. I’m done.

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

Since its my money and my taxes.

Somehow, being a beast of burden for the troubles of others is just not an appealing lifestyle.

Unfortunately for you…you have no choice in being a “beast of burden” since you pay taxes. Sad that you value “your” money over human life. If thats your stance,then why do you pay taxes?

Do you feel this way towards “your” money being wasted on the military? Unecessary wars and wounded soldiers? Education? World Trade Center efforts?? These are the troubles of others?

It scares me how selfish people are when it comes to “taking care of our own.” You say all of this and I bet you also support Bush invading Iraq. Sounds like hypocrite territory to me. And to think that you’re an educator…we’re doomed…lol.

Insults aside, why is it moral to force some individuals to pay for the actions/needs of others? Can individuals be forced to be moral?

You want to introduce force (government action) into a moral argument. Morality being forced upon individuals means that the individuals are slaves. A gun is not an argument, its an instrument of coercion.

The moment you introduce force as a moral argument, as equivalent to reason, you announce that you are a barbarian. I shudder to think of you as…well, just about anything.

All this barbarian bullshit doesn’t support the argument being made…by paying taxes you involuntarily assist whomever/wherever the money is applied to. Its not forcing morality on anyone. My argument is that its sad that people lack the morality to want to help their fellow man regardless if its forced or not. With the argument you’re making, you announce that you’re a caveman reinventing the wheel. Idiot. You should shudder.

You either believe in freedom or you don’t. Individuals have to be given the freedom to choose to help others. If they do not have that freedom, they are slaves. The money taken from them by force is extorted wealth.

Look, if you want to believe in totalitarianism, that’s fine. Just don’t attempt to pass it off as somehow moral. Its not; its simply a hidden desire to kill.

You say that it is sad that people lack the morality to want to help their fellow man whether forced or not. You then propose to extort money from them using government power. To you, the hopes and dreams of individuals should be at the mercy of bureaucrats who decide that the money to achieve those hopes and dreams is really theirs and they can use it as they will, as long as its to help others. The hopes and dreams of the victims of this scheme mean nothing; the needs of others come first.

Such a scheme is evil. It is actually designed not to help others but to crush those hopes and dreams. It is anti-life. It seeks to crush the best among men to benefit its worst. It is a morality of death.

Ok,your ramblings are starting to go into left field…How does my views show a belief in totalitarianism? If thats the case,everyone that pays taxes supports totalitarianism. I think your belief in the value of money and property over human life speaks for itself…and you’re preaching about my “anti-life” views.

Save your b.s. for your students. I’m done.[/quote]

It is because I value human life that I value what makes life possible — money and property. Those things belong to someone; they are not yours. If you send government agents to steal that money, it is theft. You therefore also announce that anyone’s property, including your own, is up for grabs. A society founded on such principles must collapse into chaos and disorder, of groups fighting tribal wars against each other.

That’s where your miserable philosophy must lead. One look at history would bear that out. Only when the United States was founded, and it was said that you have a right to your life and property, did civilisation return to the world. You are destroying it.

Another opinion.

I do not personally mind helping people out. However in the case of Katrina it seems that billions of dollars have been given to “them”, not only by the government, but by individuals giving as well. (Not counting people’s time who went down and helped clean up and rebuild.)

I would like an accounting of those dollars, because it is my assertion that a lot if not most of those dollars went someplace they shouldn’t have and people took advantage. (Much like what is going on in Iraq.)

I have a problem giving when I feel that is the case. Plus all they do is whine and bitch and wait for a handout. Not all are like that, but the ones that are can go live in Afghanistan for all I care. Kudos to those who are working their asses off to rebuild.

Give me an address and I’ll send it directly to them.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
Big_Boss wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
JohnnyBlaze wrote:

Since when has money and taxation become a greater concern than human life?

Since its my money and my taxes.

Somehow, being a beast of burden for the troubles of others is just not an appealing lifestyle.

Unfortunately for you…you have no choice in being a “beast of burden” since you pay taxes. Sad that you value “your” money over human life. If thats your stance,then why do you pay taxes?

Do you feel this way towards “your” money being wasted on the military? Unecessary wars and wounded soldiers? Education? World Trade Center efforts?? These are the troubles of others?

It scares me how selfish people are when it comes to “taking care of our own.” You say all of this and I bet you also support Bush invading Iraq. Sounds like hypocrite territory to me. And to think that you’re an educator…we’re doomed…lol.

Insults aside, why is it moral to force some individuals to pay for the actions/needs of others? Can individuals be forced to be moral?

You want to introduce force (government action) into a moral argument. Morality being forced upon individuals means that the individuals are slaves. A gun is not an argument, its an instrument of coercion.

The moment you introduce force as a moral argument, as equivalent to reason, you announce that you are a barbarian. I shudder to think of you as…well, just about anything.

All this barbarian bullshit doesn’t support the argument being made…by paying taxes you involuntarily assist whomever/wherever the money is applied to. Its not forcing morality on anyone. My argument is that its sad that people lack the morality to want to help their fellow man regardless if its forced or not. With the argument you’re making, you announce that you’re a caveman reinventing the wheel. Idiot. You should shudder.

You either believe in freedom or you don’t. Individuals have to be given the freedom to choose to help others. If they do not have that freedom, they are slaves. The money taken from them by force is extorted wealth.

Look, if you want to believe in totalitarianism, that’s fine. Just don’t attempt to pass it off as somehow moral. Its not; its simply a hidden desire to kill.

You say that it is sad that people lack the morality to want to help their fellow man whether forced or not. You then propose to extort money from them using government power. To you, the hopes and dreams of individuals should be at the mercy of bureaucrats who decide that the money to achieve those hopes and dreams is really theirs and they can use it as they will, as long as its to help others. The hopes and dreams of the victims of this scheme mean nothing; the needs of others come first.

Such a scheme is evil. It is actually designed not to help others but to crush those hopes and dreams. It is anti-life. It seeks to crush the best among men to benefit its worst. It is a morality of death.

Ok,your ramblings are starting to go into left field…How does my views show a belief in totalitarianism? If thats the case,everyone that pays taxes supports totalitarianism. I think your belief in the value of money and property over human life speaks for itself…and you’re preaching about my “anti-life” views.

Save your b.s. for your students. I’m done.

It is because I value human life that I value what makes life possible — money and property. Those things belong to someone; they are not yours. If you send government agents to steal that money, it is theft. You therefore also announce that anyone’s property, including your own, is up for grabs. A society founded on such principles must collapse into chaos and disorder, of groups fighting tribal wars against each other.

That’s where your miserable philosophy must lead. One look at history would bear that out. Only when the United States was founded, and it was said that you have a right to your life and property, did civilisation return to the world. You are destroying it.

[/quote]

still rambling b.s…United States was founded on persecution by those supposedly persecuted…so your “it was said that you have a right to your life and property,did CIVILization return to the world.” point is worthless.

People like you are destroying the country. You seem to be missing the point of this whole argument. Go choke on something.

[quote]Headhunter wrote:
Only when the United States was founded, and it was said that you have a right to your life and property, did civilisation return to the world. You are destroying it.

[/quote]

Check your history…There is an island country on the other side of the Atlantic that passed several acts of parliament guaranteeing property rights (among other things) long before the U.S.A “returned civilization” to the world.

Also, just curious, do you read anything other than Ayn Rand? I don’t mean to sound like a dick, I am just curious.

HH:

Do you read anything other than Ayn Rand? Just curious.