Ok X , check out what i said about how the Anglos have encouraged a number of cultures, religions, and people to come over. That is one reason X, that more people get a slice of the pie, i mean thats a good liberal philosophy eh?
Also, you are really missing the point. Conquest happens and always will happen. The africans , south americans, middle eastern peoples have all been practicioners of conquest and its recipients. I know you are an african american , its somewhat hypocritical of you to mention this, b/c your people have done the same thing and have had wars and things against each other long before shaka zulu came around! Dude conquest happens , get over it and enjoy the multi-cultural society, the variety of languages opinions religions thoughts feelings and colors we have. Thanks
[quote]Professor X wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
And you have a point about the length of time a particular people has been around, but time will invalidate your reasoning, b/c anglos, african americans and real " asians " not " indians" will have been here for a few millenia as well. So b!tch while you can for several thousand years but after that, well we have moral ground for being here. This isn’t just some stupid awnser b/c even though i am saying it will take a few thousand years for it to be " ok " to liver here under your reasoning, it will be ok ever after.
What? No, seriously, when you wrote this, it sounded like a logical response to what was previously posted? We have “moral ground” for being here? I thought it was because Native Americans were invaded, battled and thrown into Reservations. Now it is because of morals?[/quote]
And X, i understand that the Africans had basically been hoodwinked and brought over here as slaves. It was a torturous horrible thing to have happened to them and to the jim crow kind of laws enacted later to put black people down, but if you want to correct the " wrong " by you being in America you could always immigrate to Africa. Somehow, i don’t think that you will put your money where your mouth is.
In this debate i can’t let you have your cake and eat it too. Anyway thank you for the response
[quote]lumbernac wrote:
Ok X , check out what i said about how the Anglos have encouraged a number of cultures, religions, and people to come over. That is one reason X, that more people get a slice of the pie, i mean thats a good liberal philosophy eh?
Also, you are really missing the point. Conquest happens and always will happen. The africans , south americans, middle eastern peoples have all been practicioners of conquest and its recipients. I know you are an african american , its somewhat hypocritical of you to mention this, b/c your people have done the same thing and have had wars and things against each other long before shaka zulu came around! Dude conquest happens , get over it and enjoy the multi-cultural society, the variety of languages opinions religions thoughts feelings and colors we have. Thanks[/quote]
That isn’t the point. Isr posed a decent question. What gives you, me or any other American more of a “right” to this land than either Native Americans or anyone else in the world who may want to live here? That doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate our culture.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
Ok X , check out what i said about how the Anglos have encouraged a number of cultures, religions, and people to come over. That is one reason X, that more people get a slice of the pie, i mean thats a good liberal philosophy eh?
Also, you are really missing the point. Conquest happens and always will happen. The africans , south americans, middle eastern peoples have all been practicioners of conquest and its recipients. I know you are an african american , its somewhat hypocritical of you to mention this, b/c your people have done the same thing and have had wars and things against each other long before shaka zulu came around! Dude conquest happens , get over it and enjoy the multi-cultural society, the variety of languages opinions religions thoughts feelings and colors we have. Thanks
That isn’t the point. Isr posed a decent question. What gives you, me or any other American more of a “right” to this land than either Native Americans or anyone else in the world who may want to live here? That doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate our culture. [/quote]
Nothing whatsoever. As a practical matter, might makes right. As a moral issue, we were wrong-as is any conquering nation that drives out the original inhabitants of place.
That isn’t the point. Isr posed a decent question. What gives you, me or any other American more of a “right” to this land than either Native Americans or anyone else in the world who may want to live here? That doesn’t mean that I don’t appreciate our culture. [/quote]
I dont think that anybody really has any moral right to be anywhere more than anybody else. We are all just trying to make our living the best way we know how.
I just disagree with the term " native american" more strongly than anything else mentioned because they didnt originate in america. Alaskans , Indians ( the asian kind ) and aborignees all ( traditionally ) beleive that they originated in their respective lands. I have known several of these asian-variety Indians who have said these and read about this beleif espoused by the others, in different and non-political sources. It makes you feel better about you being there, like this land is your original home. Of course this isn’t true so nobody has any more of a right to be anywhere else IMHO.
[quote]lumbernac wrote:
And X, i understand that the Africans had basically been hoodwinked and brought over here as slaves. It was a torturous horrible thing to have happened to them and to the jim crow kind of laws enacted later to put black people down, but if you want to correct the " wrong " by you being in America you could always immigrate to Africa. Somehow, i don’t think that you will put your money where your mouth is.
[/quote]
Hold the fuck up! I know you can’t possibly be stupid enough to throw in the “if you don’t like it, then go back to Africa” racist bullshit that every KKK, Aryan Nation and white supremist group uses and expect someone to have an honest debate with you? That line was some serious garbage that was totally unnecessary!
It’s amazing that the term “redneck” got thrown around here as being a racist term for about 30-40 posts, but no one even batted an eye at this nonsense! By making that statement, you have shown your true colors!
I had thought of responding, but in all honestly, after rereading your post - I have no clue what point you are trying to make. What you say makes no sense at all. (Thats not the opening gambit to a flamefest, just the honest truth).
Talk of borders raises interesting philosophical questions.
In economist-speak, one can divide everything into one of 4 factors of production:
Land
Labour
Capital
Enterprise
Its interesting how so much effort is put into ensuring as much mobility as possible for 3 of the above 4, and yet the free mobility of labour is resisted so stoutly.
[quote]ALDurr wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
And X, i understand that the Africans had basically been hoodwinked and brought over here as slaves. It was a torturous horrible thing to have happened to them and to the jim crow kind of laws enacted later to put black people down, but if you want to correct the " wrong " by you being in America you could always immigrate to Africa. Somehow, i don’t think that you will put your money where your mouth is.
Hold the fuck up! I know you can’t possibly be stupid enough to throw in the “if you don’t like it, then go back to Africa” racist bullshit that every KKK, Aryan Nation and white supremist group uses and expect someone to have an honest debate with you? That line was some serious garbage that was totally unnecessary!
It’s amazing that the term “redneck” got thrown around here as being a racist term for about 30-40 posts, but no one even batted an eye at this nonsense! By making that statement, you have shown your true colors![/quote]
But aldurr, im not saying go back to africa if you don’t like the racism , ect that is around thats not my point at all. You are really putting words in my mouth that i dont beleive at all. I am simply saying that if X seriously beleives thats he doesnt have a right to be here than he should follow his beleifs (and leave). I am NOT being a racist just b/c X happens to be black and i am suggesting that he go to his homeland. He can go anywhere that he feels he would have a right to be in, thats all and quit being a jerk.
I had thought of responding, but in all honestly, after rereading your post - I have no clue what point you are trying to make.
[/quote]
Nope, wrong again. I am pro-immigration like a lot of the other posters. I agree with the guy that said that illeagal immigration actually has a positive effect on the economy. But if you can’t read my simple points then you have a problem. I think a more likely idea is that you just disagree and are wanting to dismiss the entire discussion by labeling my reasoning as " incomprehensible " . Its a classic liberal use of rhetoric , that doesn’t mean that it is never true but if you would like to quote any passages that i have written on and agree or not or disagree with a part of it that is always fine. This is politics after all.
[quote]ALDurr wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
And X, i understand that the Africans had basically been hoodwinked and brought over here as slaves. It was a torturous horrible thing to have happened to them and to the jim crow kind of laws enacted later to put black people down, but if you want to correct the " wrong " by you being in America you could always immigrate to Africa. Somehow, i don’t think that you will put your money where your mouth is.
Hold the fuck up! I know you can’t possibly be stupid enough to throw in the “if you don’t like it, then go back to Africa” racist bullshit that every KKK, Aryan Nation and white supremist group uses and expect someone to have an honest debate with you? That line was some serious garbage that was totally unnecessary!
It’s amazing that the term “redneck” got thrown around here as being a racist term for about 30-40 posts, but no one even batted an eye at this nonsense! By making that statement, you have shown your true colors![/quote]
Actually, AL
you completely overreacted and forced your words onto his thoughts. Then you threw in some serious power words like KKK and Aryan to really heat it up.
Noone batted an eye because we saw the post for what he meant, not for something you wanted it to be so you could explode for no reason.
But, I’m not of color so I suppose I just can’t see what he really meant, right!
[quote]lumbernac wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
And X, i understand that the Africans had basically been hoodwinked and brought over here as slaves. It was a torturous horrible thing to have happened to them and to the jim crow kind of laws enacted later to put black people down, but if you want to correct the " wrong " by you being in America you could always immigrate to Africa. Somehow, i don’t think that you will put your money where your mouth is.
Hold the fuck up! I know you can’t possibly be stupid enough to throw in the “if you don’t like it, then go back to Africa” racist bullshit that every KKK, Aryan Nation and white supremist group uses and expect someone to have an honest debate with you? That line was some serious garbage that was totally unnecessary!
It’s amazing that the term “redneck” got thrown around here as being a racist term for about 30-40 posts, but no one even batted an eye at this nonsense! By making that statement, you have shown your true colors!
But aldurr, im not saying go back to africa if you don’t like the racism , ect that is around thats not my point at all. You are really putting words in my mouth that i dont beleive at all. I am simply saying that if X seriously beleives thats he doesnt have a right to be here than he should follow his beleifs (and leave). I am NOT being a racist just b/c X happens to be black and i am suggesting that he go to his homeland. He can go anywhere that he feels he would have a right to be in, thats all and quit being a jerk. [/quote]
You obviously have no idea how offense that statement was regardless of your intent. You didn’t have to make that statement to illustrate your point, you chose to. Just as I chose to respond to how it sounds. I didn’t put words in your mouth. In fact, I quoted you just to prevent that. You said “but if you want to correct the " wrong " by you being in America you could always immigrate to Africa.” Maybe you aren’t aware of this, but that is the type of statement that has been given throughout the years by racists whites when a black person has criticized America. It is offensive, regardless of the how’s and why’s you used it. If I am being a jerk for pointing that out, then so be it. I am not allowing something like this to slide by just because of context.
BTW, if you have such an understanding of what has happened to African-americans in this country, then you would know that it most likely would be impossible for X to go back to Africa. Most of us have no clue which part we are from because of what was done to us here. Our entire culture was methodically and systematically destroyed by the evil process of slavery. We are as much a product of this “homeland” as we are of Africa.
[quote]sasquatch wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
lumbernac wrote:
And X, i understand that the Africans had basically been hoodwinked and brought over here as slaves. It was a torturous horrible thing to have happened to them and to the jim crow kind of laws enacted later to put black people down, but if you want to correct the " wrong " by you being in America you could always immigrate to Africa. Somehow, i don’t think that you will put your money where your mouth is.
Hold the fuck up! I know you can’t possibly be stupid enough to throw in the “if you don’t like it, then go back to Africa” racist bullshit that every KKK, Aryan Nation and white supremist group uses and expect someone to have an honest debate with you? That line was some serious garbage that was totally unnecessary!
It’s amazing that the term “redneck” got thrown around here as being a racist term for about 30-40 posts, but no one even batted an eye at this nonsense! By making that statement, you have shown your true colors!
Actually, AL
you completely overreacted and forced your words onto his thoughts. Then you threw in some serious power words like KKK and Aryan to really heat it up.
Noone batted an eye because we saw the post for what he meant, not for something you wanted it to be so you could explode for no reason.
But, I’m not of color so I suppose I just can’t see what he really meant, right![/quote]
That’s because many of you have never had the experience of growing up and hearing these kinds of statements before. I did and I find them offensive, regardless of why it was said. He didn’t need to say it to get his point across. He was doing fine without it. He said it to push buttons. Which he did. But you guys keep telling yourselves that its ok to make these types of statement because of context.
I had thought of responding, but in all honestly, after rereading your post - I have no clue what point you are trying to make.
Nope, wrong again. I am pro-immigration like a lot of the other posters. I agree with the guy that said that illeagal immigration actually has a positive effect on the economy. But if you can’t read my simple points then you have a problem. I think a more likely idea is that you just disagree and are wanting to dismiss the entire discussion by labeling my reasoning as " incomprehensible " . Its a classic liberal use of rhetoric , that doesn’t mean that it is never true but if you would like to quote any passages that i have written on and agree or not or disagree with a part of it that is always fine. This is politics after all.[/quote]
I am pro immigration, LEGALLY and with intention to be a PRODUCTIVE part of society! I’m talking Mexico here.
What you say above is absolutely plain old WRONG.
If you live in California, AZ and Texas you know how badly illegal immigration effects the economy.
Health care costs and dealing with illegals are triple of what it will cost to build a secure wall and patrol. Many come over to have their children so it can be American and have citizenship rights, and the kids get delivered with YOUR TAX DOLLARS.
These jobs they take are usually under the table, and the gov receives no taxes from it, and most of the money goes straight back to mexico anyway. How is this stimulating economy here in the US?
Most fail to secure health coverage and when they get legal end up on welfare anyway. California has 12 percent of the US population but shells out 21% of the nations welfare. This is an example of why you are wrong. The US employers who use these guys should face STIFF penaties.
They refuse to learn our language so we have to spend billions on spanish signage, ATM’s, DMV, printing, and the list goes on.
Do you think these people have insurance for the cars they might hit you with? Hell no. Your insurance would have to pay for it. The amount of illegals driving is a problem because they fail to PAY THE PROPER TAXES and reg. fees!
It plain DRAINS us and nothing else.
Please tell me how the above stimulates our economy positively?
[quote]ALDurr wrote:
That’s because many of you have never had the experience of growing up and hearing these kinds of statements before. I did and I find them offensive, regardless of why it was said. He didn’t need to say it to get his point across. He was doing fine without it. He said it to push buttons. Which he did. But you guys keep telling yourselves that its ok to make these types of statement because of context.[/quote]
I agree with you. It was unnecessary and it really shouldn’t need to be explained why it would offend people.
I never ONCE said it was ok to make such a statement. It seems your habit of interpreting the way you want as opposed to the way it’s said is all encompassing.
I never grew up with it, but I find it extremely offensive. My argument was that is not how I read it and not how he said it. You took his statement–dirtied it up to fit your offensive button–then added seriously bogus groups to equate his ?statement? to and then went off.
You obviously have no idea how offense that statement was regardless of your intent. You didn’t have to make that statement to illustrate your point, you chose to. Just as I chose to respond to how it sounds. I didn’t put words in your mouth. In fact, I quoted you just to prevent that. You said “but if you want to correct the " wrong " by you being in America you could always immigrate to Africa.” Maybe you aren’t aware of this, but that is the type of statement that has been given throughout the years by racists whites when a black person has criticized America. It is offensive, regardless of the how’s and why’s you used it. If I am being a jerk for pointing that out, then so be it. I am not allowing something like this to slide by just because of context.
BTW, if you have such an understanding of what has happened to African-americans in this country, then you would know that it most likely would be impossible for X to go back to Africa. Most of us have no clue which part we are from because of what was done to us here. Our entire culture was methodically and systematically destroyed by the evil process of slavery. We are as much a product of this “homeland” as we are of Africa. [/quote]
Look, you are confusing two similar statements. The neo-nazis will say that if you don’t like the way things are done then you can leave. I on the other hand, said that if you want " to correct the " wrong " by you being in America you could always immigrate to Africa."
The big difference in these two is the assumption on why one should leave. One group says to another citizen of the us that if they don’t like institutional or defacto racism then they can leave. I am making this point to say that if they want to right a wrong then they can leave. I have said a similar thing to people that i think go overboard in trashing America, and then say that the U.S. blows goats. I mean if better or more moral options are available i am just pointing these out. Thats all. I still think your being a jerk b/c you are making a HUGE logical leap to say that i am making similar statements to nazis when i mentioned that it was to right a wrong. I doubt those words have ever been mentioned by a nazi , what do skinheads care about righting anything? Hmmm??
[quote]Professor X wrote:
ALDurr wrote:
That’s because many of you have never had the experience of growing up and hearing these kinds of statements before. I did and I find them offensive, regardless of why it was said. He didn’t need to say it to get his point across. He was doing fine without it. He said it to push buttons. Which he did. But you guys keep telling yourselves that its ok to make these types of statement because of context.
I agree with you. It was unnecessary and it really shouldn’t need to be explained why it would offend people.
[/quote]
Look X, i am sorry if i was being offensive. If i could, can i revise my statement? If you feel that other people in america have a greater right than you to be there, then you can go wherever you like ( not just africa) but i still dont think that you will do this. Nazis and skinheads want you to leave b/c they won’t change their racist ways. I am offering a better choice for you if you feel that you don’t have the moral grounds to stay. Why would i want you to be hypocritical and have your beleifs and actions conflict? Thats not offensive is it? However,I think you may have a point since i did say africa and i apologize for mentioning that specifically b/c you are an african american , but the main line of reasoning still stands man.
You obviously have no idea how offense that statement was regardless of your intent. You didn’t have to make that statement to illustrate your point, you chose to. Just as I chose to respond to how it sounds. I didn’t put words in your mouth. In fact, I quoted you just to prevent that. You said “but if you want to correct the " wrong " by you being in America you could always immigrate to Africa.” Maybe you aren’t aware of this, but that is the type of statement that has been given throughout the years by racists whites when a black person has criticized America. It is offensive, regardless of the how’s and why’s you used it. If I am being a jerk for pointing that out, then so be it. I am not allowing something like this to slide by just because of context.
BTW, if you have such an understanding of what has happened to African-americans in this country, then you would know that it most likely would be impossible for X to go back to Africa. Most of us have no clue which part we are from because of what was done to us here. Our entire culture was methodically and systematically destroyed by the evil process of slavery. We are as much a product of this “homeland” as we are of Africa.
Look, you are confusing two similar statements. The neo-nazis will say that if you don’t like the way things are done then you can leave. I on the other hand, said that if you want " to correct the " wrong " by you being in America you could always immigrate to Africa."
The big difference in these two is the assumption on why one should leave. One group says to another citizen of the us that if they don’t like institutional or defacto racism then they can leave. I am making this point to say that if they want to right a wrong then they can leave. I have said a similar thing to people that i think go overboard in trashing America, and then say that the U.S. blows goats. I mean if better or more moral options are available i am just pointing these out. Thats all. I still think your being a jerk b/c you are making a HUGE logical leap to say that i am making similar statements to nazis when i mentioned that it was to right a wrong. I doubt those words have ever been mentioned by a nazi , what do skinheads care about righting anything? Hmmm?? [/quote]
Semantics does not make it any better. The only difference in the statements is that you say you are just pointing out options to right the wrong where the racists assholes are just saying get out the country. The difference is saying “You can leave to right the wrong” vs. “Get out!”. They still mean the same thing. I am quite sure that you weren’t trying to be offensive, but you were. It is an offensive statement, period. You can think I am being a jerk about it if you want to, but you are not going to massage this into not such a big deal. You were making good points without this statement. You didn’t need to go there.
I never ONCE said it was ok to make such a statement. It seems your habit of interpreting the way you want as opposed to the way it’s said is all encompassing.
I never grew up with it, but I find it extremely offensive. My argument was that is not how I read it and not how he said it. You took his statement–dirtied it up to fit your offensive button–then added seriously bogus groups to equate his ?statement? to and then went off.
[/quote]
I never said you said it was OK. I said you never had the experience of having this directed towards you and therefore can look at it from a purely objective standpoint. The statement is offensive. Why don’t you see that? None of you will admit that. The similarities between that statement and the ones racist assholes make are startling. But, I guess you will never admit that either. You all will just blow it off and continue to think that I am just being a jerk about it. That’s fine. But I will continue to call people on this kind of thing. If using the term “redneck” is being called out, then these things will be too.
Semantics does not make it any better. The only difference in the statements is that you say you are just pointing out options to right the wrong where the racists assholes are just saying get out the country. The difference is saying “You can leave to right the wrong” vs. “Get out!”. They still mean the same thing. I am quite sure that you weren’t trying to be offensive, but you were. It is an offensive statement, period. You can think I am being a jerk about it if you want to, but you are not going to massage this into not such a big deal. You were making good points without this statement. You didn’t need to go there. [/quote]
Fine Al. But you are assuming that the only reason behind exposing better options in the form of relocation is built by racism. If you actually want to read a book on history, especially african american history, read about the back to africa movement. Was it done by a bunch of white guys in white suits? NOooooo. It was done by african americans that felt that they could have better lives in their motherland. Now mabey i shouldn’t have said that he could back to africa in particular b/c he is black, but the main point is still there and i think that your raggin man. later