Bullying Leads to Death

Off Topic Politics and World Issues
1

I just wanted to hear some T-Nationers opinions on this, specifically those of some of the lawyers on here.

A 16 year old in Gardner, KS, a suburb of KC, died after engaging in a consensual fight apparently triggered by bullying.

http://www.kansascity.com/105/story/479068.html

[i]
At Gardner Edgerton High School, Dakota DeRemus was the kid some students liked to pick on.

And Wednesday, authorities charged another sophomore, Dustin Howard, with involuntary manslaughter after a fight led to DeRemus�?? death.

DeRemus, who authorities said had a heart ailment, was hit in the chest, ribs and back while at least four youths watched after school Monday. He collapsed during the fight in the backyard of his Gardner home, and an hour later, neighbors found his body, police said.

The two boys, both 16, agreed to fight, the suspect�??s attorney said at a hearing Wednesday in the juvenile division of Johnson County District Court. Authorities confiscated a cell-phone video of the fight.

DeRemus�?? father, Frank DeRemus, lashed out Wednesday at the suspect�??s family during the hearing, saying his son had been bullied for two years.

The suspect�??s family declined to comment.

At the hearing Wednesday, the attorney for Howard argued that Howard was not dangerous and that DeRemus�?? heart condition was likely a larger factor in his death.

�??The victim had a heart issue and no one knows for sure what role that played,�?? Debra Vermillion argued.

Prosecutors on Wednesday charged Howard with involuntary manslaughter, unintentionally killing DeRemus while committing a battery.

Prosecutors have declined to comment on the details of the case, including whether others could be charged.

News that a classmate was dead and another jailed hit students hard Wednesday.

�??This whole thing is really upsetting, even for the people not close to Dakota,�?? said Megan Haer, a senior.

DeRemus was not the type to back down from those who taunted him, one friend said. That made people pick on him more because �??they could tell it affected him.�??

Gardner Edgerton High students have left messages on Facebook pages about DeRemus�?? death and expressed condolences. Some called him a friend who �??could make you laugh over anything and always seemed happy and ready to succeed.�??

Others acknowledged teasing DeRemus and wished they had not.

�??Sure I picked on him before but no one needs to die over anything like this,�?? a teenager wrote. �??Dakota. Please forgive me for anything that I might have said or done to hurt you in the past. I feel terrible.�??

DeRemus�?? aunt, Wendy McCarley, said about four students were especially troublesome for DeRemus. She said she did not know why students picked on him.

�??Maybe because he wasn�??t into sports, but that was because he had a heart condition,�?? said McCarley, who described her nephew as �??awesome.�??

McCarley said school officials knew about the bullying.

Tim Yoho, deputy superintendent of Gardner Edgerton School District, said he was bothered to hear DeRemus�?? family say that the boy was bullied.

�??It concerns us when we hear things of that nature,�?? Yoho said. �??Students�?? safety is the first priority of our school district.�??

Yoho said he could not address the situation. A relative of DeRemus asked school officials not to speak publicly about him or the case, Yoho said.

Staff members were trying to determine more about the incident, how the boys knew each other, and exactly what happened between them, Yoho said.

�??In times like these people are always looking for answers,�?? Yoho said. �??It�??s such a horrible thing.�??

Some friends of DeRemus said they did not know he had been picked on. Close friend Amy Slavens, a senior, said she only saw him hanging out with his friends and with her after school.

�??If anyone gave him a chance and got to know him, they�??d like him,�?? she said. �??He�??d make you laugh. He could turn it around and make anything funny.�??

She said she and other close friends knew about the heart condition. Others said DeRemus had even talked about it in class.

�??He and I talked about the military a lot,�?? Slavens said. �??All his family had been in it, but he couldn�??t because of his condition. He accepted it and didn�??t let it bother him.�??

After DeRemus�?? father lashed out at Howard�??s family in court, deputies grabbed him, slammed him against a wall, leaving a hole, then led him away in handcuffs over protests from relatives.

Johnson County Sheriff�??s spokesman Tom Erickson said the man was released without being booked into jail. A disorderly conduct report will be sent to the district attorney to review for possible charges.

Two deputies later escorted Howard�??s family to their car. They left without commenting.

At the hearing, Vermillion asked for Howard to be released to the custody of his mother and stepfather.

�??You have two young men the same age who may have engaged in a consensual altercation,�?? Vermillion said �??�?� This is not a situation where the defendant will be a threat to anyone else.�??

Prosecutors objected.

District Magistrate Judge Michael Farley ordered Howard held in juvenile detention until his next court appearance Feb. 19.

Meanwhile, DeRemus�?? family will bury him.

A student on the Facebook site expressed remorse for how DeRemus was treated.

�??I didn�??t know him that well but I still could�??ve been nicer. We all could have been.�??

[/i]

2

Sounds entirely appropriate.
That’s exactly what he did.

In a consensual fight, which falls under the realm of social violence, you try to make the other party submit, you don’t break ribs. Heart issues aside, broken ribs are sharp and gouge internal organs.

You only do that when you are under threat of violent assault by a thief, rapist, crackhead, angry drunk, or other truly dangerous assailant.

And instead of checking for a pulse and calling 9-1-1, those young men tucked tail, ran and hid, failing to fulfill their public duty. The four youths who watched and fled should be charged with something, too.

ElbowStrike

3

[quote]ElbowStrike wrote:
In a consensual fight, which falls under the realm of social violence, you try to make the other party submit, you don’t break ribs. Heart issues aside, broken ribs are sharp and gouge internal organs.

You only do that when you are under threat of violent assault by a thief, rapist, crackhead, angry drunk, or other truly dangerous assailant.

Clearly, the assailant did not share your views on the subject.

And instead of checking for a pulse and calling 9-1-1, those young men tucked tail, ran and hid, failing to fulfill their public duty. The four youths who watched and fled should be charged with something, too.

ElbowStrike[/quote]

Agreed. Their behaviour was wrong, but it doesn’t surprise me. Kids are irresponsible- it kind of comes with the territory.

4

Didn’t we already have a long thread about this? Or was that in another forum…?

5

The asshole bully will not get what he deserves. Some one lost a son and a young live was cut short because some one was not raised properly. I believe parent should be held accountable for the actions of their children.

6

[quote]streamline wrote:
The asshole bully will not get what he deserves. Some one lost a son and a young live was cut short because some one was not raised properly. I believe parent should be held accountable for the actions of their children.[/quote]

So, the parents of the assailent should be charged with involuntary manslaughter? And the parents of the other kids should be charged with gross negligence or some such? The parents are already punished in the sense that one of their kids will now never be as successful as he would have been had he not killed someone in high school. Actually charging them with crimes is taking it too far.

7

[quote]Weasel42 wrote:
streamline wrote:
The asshole bully will not get what he deserves. Some one lost a son and a young live was cut short because some one was not raised properly. I believe parent should be held accountable for the actions of their children.

So, the parents of the assailent should be charged with involuntary manslaughter? And the parents of the other kids should be charged with gross negligence or some such? The parents are already punished in the sense that one of their kids will now never be as successful as he would have been had he not killed someone in high school. Actually charging them with crimes is taking it too far.
[/quote]

No - the bully took it too far. I think parents should be put in jail for shitty parenting - if it leads to the commission of a felony.

8

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Weasel42 wrote:
streamline wrote:
The asshole bully will not get what he deserves. Some one lost a son and a young live was cut short because some one was not raised properly. I believe parent should be held accountable for the actions of their children.

So, the parents of the assailent should be charged with involuntary manslaughter? And the parents of the other kids should be charged with gross negligence or some such? The parents are already punished in the sense that one of their kids will now never be as successful as he would have been had he not killed someone in high school. Actually charging them with crimes is taking it too far.

No - the bully took it too far. I think parents should be put in jail for shitty parenting - if it leads to the commission of a felony.

[/quote]

Then we have to ask ourselves, if parents are to be “put in jail for shitty parenting - if it leads to the commision of a felony,” how do we determine whether the kid in question is responsible, or if the real perpetrator was his parents’ “shitty parenting?”
Any commision of a felony by a juvenile offender would necessitate an investigation and trial of the offender’s parents. This costs time and money. Where is that money going to come from?
Furthermore, if a child is not responsible for his own actions because of “shitty parenting,” how can anyone be responsible for their own actions? At what point does one person’s responsibility end and another person’s responsibility begin?

“The more that you talk about a person as a social construction or as a confluence of forces or as fragmented or marginalized, what you do is you open up a whole new world of excuses.” - Waking Life

9

[quote]Weasel42 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Weasel42 wrote:
streamline wrote:
The asshole bully will not get what he deserves. Some one lost a son and a young live was cut short because some one was not raised properly. I believe parent should be held accountable for the actions of their children.

So, the parents of the assailent should be charged with involuntary manslaughter? And the parents of the other kids should be charged with gross negligence or some such? The parents are already punished in the sense that one of their kids will now never be as successful as he would have been had he not killed someone in high school. Actually charging them with crimes is taking it too far.

No - the bully took it too far. I think parents should be put in jail for shitty parenting - if it leads to the commission of a felony.

Then we have to ask ourselves, if parents are to be “put in jail for shitty parenting - if it leads to the commision of a felony,” how do we determine whether the kid in question is responsible, or if the real perpetrator was his parents’ “shitty parenting?”
Any commision of a felony by a juvenile offender would necessitate an investigation and trial of the offender’s parents. This costs time and money. Where is that money going to come from?
Furthermore, if a child is not responsible for his own actions because of “shitty parenting,” how can anyone be responsible for their own actions? At what point does one person’s responsibility end and another person’s responsibility begin?

“The more that you talk about a person as a social construction or as a confluence of forces or as fragmented or marginalized, what you do is you open up a whole new world of excuses.” - Waking Life[/quote]

You don’t have kids, do you?

I never said that the offender shouldn’t be held responsible. I said that the parents should also be held responsible. Why? Because it is the parents’ responsibility to to raise their children not to kill other kids, steal other peoples’ shit, and teach them that their actions have consequences.

I like how you think punishing the parents is taking it too far, but are so concerned with the future of a killer.

Society is breaking down because no one is held responsible for anything. How is the status quo better than what I am suggesting?

10

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Weasel42 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Weasel42 wrote:
streamline wrote:
The asshole bully will not get what he deserves. Some one lost a son and a young live was cut short because some one was not raised properly. I believe parent should be held accountable for the actions of their children.

So, the parents of the assailent should be charged with involuntary manslaughter? And the parents of the other kids should be charged with gross negligence or some such? The parents are already punished in the sense that one of their kids will now never be as successful as he would have been had he not killed someone in high school. Actually charging them with crimes is taking it too far.

No - the bully took it too far. I think parents should be put in jail for shitty parenting - if it leads to the commission of a felony.

Then we have to ask ourselves, if parents are to be “put in jail for shitty parenting - if it leads to the commision of a felony,” how do we determine whether the kid in question is responsible, or if the real perpetrator was his parents’ “shitty parenting?”
Any commision of a felony by a juvenile offender would necessitate an investigation and trial of the offender’s parents. This costs time and money. Where is that money going to come from?
Furthermore, if a child is not responsible for his own actions because of “shitty parenting,” how can anyone be responsible for their own actions? At what point does one person’s responsibility end and another person’s responsibility begin?

“The more that you talk about a person as a social construction or as a confluence of forces or as fragmented or marginalized, what you do is you open up a whole new world of excuses.” - Waking Life

You don’t have kids, do you?

I never said that the offender shouldn’t be held responsible. I said that the parents should also be held responsible. Why? Because it is the parents’ responsibility to to raise their children not to kill other kids, steal other peoples’ shit, and teach them that their actions have consequences.

I like how you think punishing the parents is taking it too far, but are so concerned with the future of a killer.

Society is breaking down because no one is held responsible for anything. How is the status quo better than what I am suggesting?

[/quote]

Children learn from the actions of their parents, I have seen way to many parents encourage aggressive behavior in their children. How often do you hear that parents spend less than five minutes a day talking to their kids. If you choose to have kids then you except the responsibility to raise them.

I have a daughter and it is my responsibility to make sure she can defend herself against sexual assault. I also talk to her ever day about social issues and situations. She’s now seventeen and comes to me then a difficult situation raises. After all who else should be responsible for the conduct of someones kids. The rest of us tax payers.

It’s not rocket science to understand that children need guidance from the ones they love and respect. If you neglect to educate your kids they will learn from others and disrespect their parents. The old adage “parenting is your full time job” needs to be reinforced.

It is this neglect of parental responsibility that leads to the formation of youth gangs. The drugs problems in our schools as well as the bullying. You only need to open your eyes to see where the problem lies. Children tend to act out to get attention from their parents.

In the situation where a child is just wired wrong. It is again the parents responsibility to seek out help for them. Which also documents the child’s difficulties and the parents attempts to correct the behavior. This is called good parenting.

11

Children can be little monsters, no doubt of that. I’ve seen kids that are horrible and the parents are firm, strict, loving, and so forth. Its just the nature of predators to prey on the weak.

That being said, the parents should at least TRY to rein in the predatory instinct. If they didn’t even try, then I’d hold them liable.

12

[quote]rainjack wrote:
Weasel42 wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Weasel42 wrote:
streamline wrote:
The asshole bully will not get what he deserves. Some one lost a son and a young live was cut short because some one was not raised properly. I believe parent should be held accountable for the actions of their children.

So, the parents of the assailent should be charged with involuntary manslaughter? And the parents of the other kids should be charged with gross negligence or some such? The parents are already punished in the sense that one of their kids will now never be as successful as he would have been had he not killed someone in high school. Actually charging them with crimes is taking it too far.

No - the bully took it too far. I think parents should be put in jail for shitty parenting - if it leads to the commission of a felony.

Then we have to ask ourselves, if parents are to be “put in jail for shitty parenting - if it leads to the commision of a felony,” how do we determine whether the kid in question is responsible, or if the real perpetrator was his parents’ “shitty parenting?”
Any commision of a felony by a juvenile offender would necessitate an investigation and trial of the offender’s parents. This costs time and money. Where is that money going to come from?
Furthermore, if a child is not responsible for his own actions because of “shitty parenting,” how can anyone be responsible for their own actions? At what point does one person’s responsibility end and another person’s responsibility begin?

“The more that you talk about a person as a social construction or as a confluence of forces or as fragmented or marginalized, what you do is you open up a whole new world of excuses.” - Waking Life

You don’t have kids, do you?

I never said that the offender shouldn’t be held responsible. I said that the parents should also be held responsible. Why? Because it is the parents’ responsibility to to raise their children not to kill other kids, steal other peoples’ shit, and teach them that their actions have consequences.

I like how you think punishing the parents is taking it too far, but are so concerned with the future of a killer.
[/quote]
Apparently, you have kids. How can you fail to understand that when YOUR KID commits a MURDER (hypothetically- I’m sure your children are very well behaved), that is punishment in itself? And when your kid spends the next few years in jail, that’s punishment too.

This story probably made headlines where it happened. The parents’ employers, friends and coworkers heard about it. Whether or not it was their fault, they will be ostracised from the community and I have to assume that it won’t be good for their careers. Regardless of whether or not the legal system holds them responsible, the community will.

You haven’t proposed a practical system for determining whether or not the child’s behavior was the result of “shitty parenting” or the child’s own decision. I think it’s wrong to hold someone responsible for another person’s decision.

13

[quote]Weasel42 wrote:
…Apparently, you have kids. How can you fail to understand that when YOUR KID commits a MURDER (hypothetically- I’m sure your children are very well behaved), that is punishment in itself? …[/quote]

That is not punishment in itself. Only good parents are bothered when their kids do bad things. I have no idea about this kid or his parents but my experience with bullies is that their parents couldn’t be bothered.

14

[quote]Weasel42 wrote:
You haven’t proposed a practical system for determining whether or not the child’s behavior was the result of “shitty parenting” or the child’s own decision. I think it’s wrong to hold someone responsible for another person’s decision.[/quote]

Doesn’t the system we already have in place work? Minors are considered to be under the responsibility of their parents until they become “adults” (in the legal sense) and responsible for their own actions?

The parents won’t go to jail for their kid’s crime (and it wouldn’t help, as the kid is the dangerous individual, not the parents), but I’m pretty sure they could be sued by the parents of the victim for wrongful death, or whatever the charge is.

15

There are places in the USA where parents are sued for the wrong doings of their offspring. We can discuss this until we’re exhausted and never find a way to resolve it. Let’s face it any one can have children, look at Brittany for example, what do you do!

I raised my child with this in mind. If you hit your child for doing wrong then they learn it is okay to hit if someone is in the wrong. I never hit my child, personally I can’t see how it could possible do any good. It sure didn’t work for my parents. I wanted my daughter to be my best friend when she grew up, and now she is. I am part of her life at seventeen not an embarrasment. I train her at the gym and guide her through life, it’s the greatest job I ever had.

I find a lot of parents have or make very little time for their kids. When you meet a kid who’s parent spend quality time with them you can see the impact it has on them. They are awesome kids and there are lots of them, you just never hear about them.

As they say, you don’t need a license to have kids.