[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
I think people would be amazed at what the anus is capable of… ha ha[/quote]
Indeed! For all their concerns about anal damage, it is amazing how many of the fundamentalists in this thread have their head stuck up their ass.
Interesting data from the “American Journal of Epidemiology.” You know that far right religious group that hates homosexuals…Oh now wait that would be forlifes explanation for anything negative that comes from a group or organization.
Actually they are quite nuetral and simply report the facts.
"COMPARATIVE PREVALENCE RATES OF SEXUALLY TRANSMITTED DISEASES IN HETEROSEXUAL AND HOMOSEXUAL MEN1
FRANKLYN N. JUDSON2, KENT A. PENLEY3, MARTHA E. ROBINSON3 and JODIE K. SMITH4
2 Denver Public Health Department, and Departments of Medicine and Preventive Medicine, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center
3 Denver Disease Control Service
4 Colorado Department of Health
2Reprint requests to Dr. Judson, Disease Control Service, 605 Bannock St., Denver, CO 80204
This study compared prevalence rates of most common sexually transmitted diseases (STD) in heterosexual and homosexual men who made respectively 12,201 and 5324 visits to an STD clinic over 18 months. Overall, homosexual men were significantly (p < 0.001) more likely than heterosexual men to have gonorrhea (30.31% vs. 19.83 %), early syphilis (1.08% vs. 0.34%) and anal warts (2.90% vs. 0.26%) but less likely to have nongonococcal urethritis (NGU) (14.63% vs. 36.40%, p < 0.001), herpes genitalis (0.93% vs. 3.65%, p < 0.001), pediculosis pubis (4.30% vs. 5.35%, p < 0.005), scabies (0.42% vs. 0.76%, p < 0.02), and genital warts (1.68% vs. 6.69%, p < 0.001). In most cases the differences in rates remained significant (p < 0.05) when corrected for age and race. It is speculated that higher rates of gonorrhea and syphilis result from a larger mean number of sexual contacts, more potential sites of infection, and more hidden and asymptomatic disease, while the lower rates of the other STD result from a lesser susceptibility of anal mucosa to the causative agent(s) of NGU, herpes genitalis, and venereal warts or from a lack of pubic apposition (pediculosis pubis).
homosexuality; prevalence studies; venereal diseases
1Denver Metro Health Clinic, Disease Control Service, Denver Department of Health and Hospitals, and the Departments of Medicine and Preventive Medicine, University of Colorado Health Sciences Center"
http://aje.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/112/6/836
I have reported this one in the past. But since this thread keeps going (at least to 100 pages soon) I might as well share it again.
Does homosexual marriage mean that legalized polygamny is around the corner. Naw…we don’t buy into that “slippery slope” nonsense.
Oops:
"First Trio “Married” in The Netherlands
From the desk of Paul Belien on Mon, 2005-09-26 23:08
The Netherlands and Belgium were the first countries to give full marriage rights to homosexuals. In the United States some politicians propose ?civil unions? that give homosexual couples the full benefits and responsibilities of marriage. These civil unions differ from marriage only in name.
Meanwhile in the Netherlands polygamy has been legalised in all but name. Last Friday the first civil union of three partners was registered. Victor de Bruijn (46) from Roosendaal ?married? both Bianca (31) and Mirjam (35) in a ceremony before a notary who duly registered their civil union.
?I love both Bianca and Mirjam, so I am marrying them both,? Victor said. He had previously been married to Bianca. Two and a half years ago they met Mirjam Geven through an internet chatbox. Eight weeks later Mirjam deserted her husband and came to live with Victor and Bianca. After Mirjam?s divorce the threesome decided to marry.
Victor: ?A marriage between three persons is not possible in the Netherlands, but a civil union is. We went to the notary in our marriage costume and exchanged rings. We consider this to be just an ordinary marriage.?
Asked by journalists to tell the secret of their peculiar relationship, Victor explained that there is no jealousy between them. ?But this is because Mirjam and Bianca are bisexual. I think that with two heterosexual women it would be more difficult.? Victor stressed, however, that he is ?a one hundred per cent heterosexual? and that a fourth person will not be allowed into the ?marriage.? They want to take their marriage obligations seriously: ?to be honest and open with each other and not philander."
The slippery slope seems pretty logical now huh?
[quote]Stiggy wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
Some people on this site a) never had anal sex witha lady and b) never watched a Rocco Sifredi film…
I think people would be amazed at what the anus is capable of… ha ha
Some guys on this site have never had sex with anyone. Surely touching their own penis…a man’s GENITALS ! Makes them gay ?[/quote]
No, that just makes them in desperate need of female companionship!
Oh, and by the way, your comment was gay!
I also like that even though we’ve mentioned straight and gay anal sex, hardcore Rocco Sifredi gonzo porn and now (taking a bow as I type) fucking sheep while giving it a reacharound, WE are branded ‘politically correct.’
To pull a line from the Princess Bride ‘You keep on using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means’.
Apparently you can only NOT be PC if you oppose people minding their own business and trying to enjoy themselves along the way.
BTW when did this become the ‘Cut and Paste championships 2006?’
There is much data that supports the notion that homosexual men had a very bad relationship with their father:
"Fisher, S., Greenberg, R. (1996) Freud Scientifically Reappraisal. NY: Wiley & Sons.
Fisher analyzed the 58 studies and reported that a large majority supported the notion that homosexual sons perceive their fathers as negative, distant, unfriendly figures.? There is not a single even moderately well controlled study that we have been able to locate in which male homosexuals refer to father positively or affectionately. (p. 136)
This is at least as credible as the possibility that they were “born that way”
There is an abundance of data out there which calls into question the “born that way” theory.
In this age of the politically correct it’s difficult to even mention such data as the PC police come out of the woodwork screaming “homophobic.”
Funny how those with interesting information have been silenced through intimidation and name calling.
Fortunately, T-Nation members are open minded (all but one or two) and welcome all information without silly name calling:
Check this out:
Genetics and Childhood Molestation
(1995) Child Sexual Abuse Prevention: What Offenders Tell Us. Child Abuse and Neglect. 19: 582.
59% of male child sex offenders had been ?victim of contact sexual abuse as a child.?
Byne, W., (1994). The Biological Evidence Challenged. Scientific American, 54.
“The incidence of homosexuality in the adopted brothers of homosexuals (11%) was much higher than recent estimates for the rate of homosexuality in the population (1 to 5%).”
“Indeed, perhaps the major finding of these heritability studies is that despite having all of their genes in common and having prenatal and postnatal environments as close to identical as possible, approximately half of the identical twins were nonetheless discordant for orientation. This finding underscores just how little is known about the origins of sexual orientation.”
Byne, W., Parsons, B. (1993, March). Human Sexual Orientation: The Biologic Theories Reappraised. Archives of General Psychiatry. 50: 228-39 (228).
?It is imperative that clinicians and behavioral scientists begin to appreciate the complexities of sexual orientation and resist the urge to search for simplistic explanations, either psychosocial or biologic.?
?Critical review shows the evidence favoring a biologic theory to be lacking.?
“Although identical twins have the same genetic code, non-identical twins and regular siblings share the same proportion of genetic material. Therefore, the genetic theories should show a similar amount of homosexual concordance between non-identical twins and regular siblings.”
“First, they point out the fact that the study rests on the assumption that the relevant environment is the same for identical twins and non-identical twins. Then, the effects of potential bias in the sample is called into question, as Bailey and Pillard recruited their homosexual research subjects by advertising in various homosexually-oriented publications.”
“Third, there was no way to separate the intermingling of environmental and genetic effects, since all sets of twins in the study had been raised together and presumably subject to most, if not all, of the same environmental effects.”
“The most interesting question, however, is that if there is something in the genetic code that makes a person homosexual, why did not all of the identical twins become homosexual, since they have the exact same genetic code?”
“While all behavior must have an ultimate biologic substrate, the appeal of current biologic explanations for sexual orientation may derive more from a dissatisfaction with the current status of psychosocial explanations than from a substantiating body of experimental data. Critical review shows the evidence favoring a biologic theory to be lacking. In an alternative model, temperamental and personality traits interact with the familial and social milieus and the individual’s sexuality emerges.”
Chapman, B., Brannock, J. (1987) Proposed model of lesbian identity development. An empirical examination. Journal of Homosexuality. 14:69-80.
63% of lesbians surveyed stated that they had chosen to be lesbians, 28% felt they had no choice, and 11% did not know why they were lesbians.
Elliott, D.M., Brier, J. (1992, February). The Sexually Abused Boy: Problems in Manhood. Medical Aspects of Human Sexuality. 26 (2): 68-71.
Boys who were sexually molested have subsequently ?a higher incidence of homosexuality.?
Friedman, Richard, Downey, Jennifer. (1993) Neurobiology and Sexual Orientation: Current Relationships, 5. J. Neuropsychiatry & Clinical Neurosciences 131, 139.
“Some typical childhood factors related to homosexuality are: feeling of being different from other children; parent, sibling, peer relationships; perception of father as being distant, uninvolved, unapproving; perception of parental perfection required; perception of mother as being too close, too involved; premature introduction to sexuality (such as child abuse or incest); gender confusion; defensive detachment, reparative drive, same-sex ambivalence; unmet affection needs; diminished/distorted masculinity, femininity.”
“?homosexual men are more likely to become sexually active at much younger ages than heterosexual men. The average age of homosexual males at their first sexual encounter was 12.7, versus 15.7 for heterosexual males.”
“This evidence may suggest that abuse and early sexual experiences can contribute to homosexuality, perhaps because of familiarity with sexual acts, and in some cases because of an initial sexual experience with someone of the same gender.”
Golwyn, D., Sevlie, C. (1993) Adventitious change in homosexual behavior during treatment of social phobia with phenelzine. Journal of Clinical Psychiatry. 54, 1:39-40.
?We conclude that social phobia may be a hidden contributing factor in some instances of homosexual behavior.? (p. 40)
Harry, J. (1989) Parental physical abuse and sexual orientation in males. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 18, 3:251-261.
?These data suggest that some history of childhood femininity is almost always a precursor of adolescent homosexual behavior.? (p. 259)
Herrell, R., et al. (1999, October). Sexual Orientation and Suicidality: a Co-Twin Control Study in Adult Men. Archives of General Psychiatry. 56 (10): 867-874.
This study of male twins who were Vietnam veterans found that male homosexuals were 5.1 times more likely to experience suicidal thoughts and behaviors than were their heterosexual twins.
Hockenberry, S., Billingham, R. (1987) Sexual orientation and boyhood gender conformity: Development of the boyhood gender conformity scales (BGCS) Archives of Sexual Behavior. 16, 6:475-492.
??the absence of masculine behaviors and traits appeared to be a more powerful predictor of later homosexual orientation than the traditionally feminine or cross-sexed traits and behaviors.? (p. 475)
Horgan, J., (1995) Gay genes, revisited: Doubts arise over research on the biology of homosexuality. Scientific American. Nov.: 28. Hubbard, Ruth, Wald, Elijah (1993). Exploring the Gene Myth 6.
“The myth of the all-powerful gene is based on flawed science that discounts the environmental context in which we and our genes exist.”
“A gene does not determine a phenotype [noticeable trait] by acting alone; a gene cannot act by itself?Each gene simply specifies one of the proteins involved in the process.”
Jefferson, D.J., (1993, August 12). Studying the Biology of Sexual Orientation Has Political Fallout. Wall Street Journal. 1A.
Lisak, D., Luster, L. Educational, occupational, and relationship histories of men who were sexually and/or physically abused as children. J Trauma Stress. 1994 Oct; 7(4): 507-23.
Nearly one in four young men report sexual abuse as a child resulting in significant life difficulties (as compared to non-abused males).
McGuire, T., (1995) Is homosexuality genetic? A critical review and some suggestions. Journal of Homosexuality. 28, 1/2: 115-145.
?Even if we knew absolutely everything about genes and absolutely everything about environment, we still could not predict the final phenotype of any individual." (p. 142)
Nimmons, David. (March 1994). Sex and the Brain, Discover, 64-71.
"It is important to stress what I didn’t find. I did not prove that homosexuality is genetic, or find a genetic cause for being gay. I didn’t show that gay men are born that way, the most common mistake people make in interpreting my work. Nor did I locate a gay center in the brain. INAH 3 is less likely to be the sole gay nucleus of the brain than a part of a chain of nuclei engaged in men and women’s sexual behavior?. Since I looked at adult brains, we don’t know if the differences I found were there at birth, or if they appeared later."
Pollak, M. Male Homosexuality in Western Sexuality: Practice and Precept in Past and Present Times, ed. P. Aries and A. Bejin, 40-61, cited by Joseph Nicolosi in Reparative Therapy of Male Homosexuality. Northvale, NJ: Jason Aronson Inc., 1991), 124-125.
Tomeo, M.E., et al. (2001, October). Comparative data of childhood and adolescence molestation in heterosexual and homosexual persons. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 30 (5): 535-541.
942 nonclinical adult participants, gay men and lesbian women reported a significantly higher rate of childhood molestation that did heterosexual men and women. Forty-six percent of the homosexual men in contrast to 7% of the heterosexual men reported homosexual molestation. Twenty-two percent of lesbian women in contrast to 1% of heterosexual women reported homosexual molestation.
Whitehead, Neil, Whitehead, Brian. (1999) My Genes Made Me Do It! A Scientific Look at Sexual Orientation, 158-159.
"Neil Whitehead tabulated other twin studies on other topics and those traits’ heritability: lying–43%, anorexia nervosa–44%, fear of the unknown–46%, psychological inpatient care–47%, extroversion–50%, depression–50%, altruism–50%, divorce–52%, racial prejudice, bigotry–70%.
“(Dean) Hamer’s genetic sequences have been calculated to affect about 5% of the homosexual population, so even if he is correct, there must be some other explanation for what causes the vast majority of homosexuality.”
“If a hormonal imbalance was responsible for homosexuality, then perhaps a simple dose of hormones to an adult would cure homosexuality. This is not the case, as has been demonstrated several times.”
Wolf, C. Homosexuality and American Public Life, Spence Publishing Co., Dallas, 1999, p. 70-71.
Homosexually-assaulted males identified themselves as subsequently becoming practicing homosexuals almost 7 times as often as bisexuals and almost 6 times as often as the non-assaulted control group. 58% of adolescents reporting sexual abuse by a man prior to puberty revealed either homosexual or bisexual orientation (control group 90% heterosexual). Age of molestation was 4-14 years. ?Nearly half of men who have reported a childhood experience with an older man were currently involved in homosexual activity.? A disproportionately high number of male homosexuals were incestuously molested by a homosexual parent. Conclusion was that the experience led the boy to perceive himself as homosexual based on his having been found sexually attractive by an older man.
Social Factors
Bem, Daryl J. (1986) Exotic Becomes Erotic: A Developmental Theory of Sexual Orientation, 103 Psychol. Rev. 320.
Daryl Bem’s “Exotic Becomes Erotic” theory states that “what is exotic to children becomes erotic to them as adolescents.” For example, “boys who play with girls mostly instead of other boys, and who tend to like the way girls play, become familiar and comfortable with femininity. Male behavior and males become exotic, and thus erotic later in life.”
Burtoft, L. (1994). Behind the Headlines: Setting the Record Straight ? What Research Really Says About the Social Consequences of Homosexuality. Colorado Springs, CO: Focus on the Family.
Fisher, S., Greenberg, R. (1996) Freud Scientifically Reappraisal. NY: Wiley & Sons.
?Fisher analyzed the 58 studies and reported that a large majority supported the notion that homosexual sons perceive their fathers as negative, distant, unfriendly figures.? ?There is not a single even moderately well controlled study that we have been able to locate in which male homosexuals refer to father positively or affectionately.? (p. 136)
Fitzgibbons, R., (1999) The origins and therapy of same-sex attraction disorder. (in Wolfe, C. Homosexuality and American Public Life. Spence) 85-97.
?the second most common cause of SSAD [same sex attraction disorder] among males is mistrust of women?s love? Male children in fatherless homes often feel overly responsible for their mothers. As they enter their adolescence, they may come to view female love as draining and exhausting.? (p. 89)
?Experience has taught me that healing is a difficult process, but through the mutual efforts of the therapist and the patient, serious emotional wounds can be healed over a period of time.? (p. 96)
Friedman, Richard, Downey, Jennifer. (1993) Neurobiology and Sexual Orientation: Current Relationships, 5. J. Neuropsychiatry & Clinical Neurosciences 131, 139.
“Some typical childhood factors related to homosexuality are: feeling of being different from other children; parent, sibling, peer relationships; perception of father as being distant, uninvolved, unapproving; perception of parental perfection required; perception of mother as being too close, too involved; premature introduction to sexuality (such as child abuse or incest); gender confusion; defensive detachment, reparative drive, same-sex ambivalence; unmet affection needs; diminished/distorted masculinity, femininity.”
“?homosexual men are more likely to become sexually active at much younger ages than heterosexual men. The average age of homosexual males at their first sexual encounter was 12.7, versus 15.7 for heterosexual males.”
“This evidence may suggest that abuse and early sexual experiences can contribute to homosexuality, perhaps because of familiarity with sexual acts, and in some cases because of an initial sexual experience with someone of the same gender.”
Newman, L. (1976) Treatment for the parents of feminine boys. American Journal of Psychiatry. 133, 6: 683-687.
?Experiences of being ostracized and ridiculed may play a more important role than has been recognized in the total abandonment of the male role at a later time.? (p. 687)
?Feminine boys, unlike men with postpubertal gender identity disorders seem remarkably responsive to treatment.? (p. 684)
Nicolosi, J. Byrd, A., Potts, R. (1998) Towards the Ethical and Effective Treatment of Homosexuality. Encino CA: NARTH.
Nicolosi surveyed 850 individuals and 200 therapists and counselors ? specifically seeking out individuals who claim to have made a degree of change in sexual orientation. Before counseling or therapy, 68% of respondents perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entirely homosexual, with another 22% stating they were more homosexual than heterosexual. After treatment only 13% perceived themselves as exclusively or almost entire homosexuality, while 33% described themselves as either exclusively or almost entirely heterosexual, 99% of respondents said they now believe treatment to change homosexuality can be effective and valuable.
Phillips, G., Over, R. (1992) Adult sexual orientation in relation to memories of childhood gender conforming and gender nonconforming behaviors. Archives of Sexual Behavior. 21, 6: 543-558.
?The 16-item discriminate-function ? yielded correct classification of 94.4% of heterosexual men and 91.8% of the homosexual men. These results indicate that heterosexual and homosexual men can be classified with equivalent accuracy on the basis of recalling having had or not having had gender conforming (masculine) experiences in childhood.? (p. 550)
Stephan, W., (1973) Parental relationships and early social experiences of activist male homosexuals and male heterosexuals. Journal of Abnormal Psychology. 82, 3: 506-513.
??homosexuals reported experiencing their first orgasm at a younger age than the heterosexuals.? 24% of homosexuals’ first orgasms occurred during homosexual contacts versus 2% of heterosexuals. (p.511)
Zucker, K., Bradley, S. (1995) Gender Identity Disorder and Psychosexual Problems in Children and Adolescents. NY: Guilford.
"?we feel that parental tolerance of cross-gender behavior at the time of its emergence is instrumental in allowing the behavior to develop?? (p. 259)
??In general we concur with those (e.g. Green 1972; Newman 1976; Stoller, 1978) who believe that the earlier treatment begins, the better.? (p. 281) ?It has been our experience that a sizable number of children and their families can achieve a great deal of change. In these cases, the gender identity disorder resolves fully, and nothing in the children?s behavior or fantasy suggests that gender identity issues remain problematic? All things considered, however, we take the position that in such cases clinicians should be optimistic, not nihilistic, about the possibility of helping the children to become more secure in their gender identity. (p. 282)"
The jury is still out on why people are gay. However, those claiming that “they are born that way” do a disservice to all concerned. They are basically repeating a lie which has been drummed into their heads by the politically correct and various homosexual organizations.
“A lie, repeated often enough, will end up as truth.”
Dr Paul Joseph Goebbels, Hitler’s Minister of Propaganda (1933-1945),
I have posted many other studies in the past. forlife has yet to respond to any of them!
[quote]forlife wrote:
Lol, thanks for the comic relief 
Steve0, you are confusing sexual orientation with behavior. People don’t choose their orientation, and attempting to change their orientation can be damaging. I can repost the definitive quotes from every major medical and mental health organization, if necessary.
Genetics is a strong factor in determining sexual orientation. You can still choose to act contrary to your orientation, of course. There wouldn’t be so many closeted gay men if that weren’t possible.
There may be some people who are more moderate in their sexual orientation, and could potentially “swing” either direction. But most people tend to be heterosexual or homosexual, and nothing they do can change who they are.
As for your “source”, you do realize that the two founders of Exodus, Michael Bussee and Gary Cooper, claimed to be “cured” right? They later became lovers and left the organization.
I realize I’m just speaking to a wall here, but this is more for the benefit of others that may have a more open mind.[/quote]
A wall, not really. I think what you posted here is reasonable and I understand your point of view.
However, if “gayness” was genetic, then nobody would ever come out – you couldn’t. How can you be so sure that they are just “acting contrary to their genetic orientation?” Perhaps, the whole gay thing is genetic heterosexuals acting contrary to their heterosexual orientation.
Anyway, I think we are at an impasse anyway. Believe it or not, I have nothing inherently against homosexual people. In fact, I do know a number of them in a casual way and one that is in my own family. I don’t agree with the behavior, nor do I wish to see the U.S. “stamp of approval” on your lifestyle.
I am not really here to win an argument, but I want you to understand that I believe with all of my soul that God loves EVERYONE including gay people and wishes that everyone including gay people would come to Him.
Take care…
Next time could you just link to the information you steal to make all your points…?
All this scrolling hurts my weedy little lefty communist PC mouse finger and I’m sure 93 of the pages of this thread could be similar lengthy stuff. Read it. Distil it. Interperate it. Sum it up or sommink. For the sake of my poor finger…
Thanks… Now we can resume hostilities… 
[quote]ZEB wrote:
juninho wrote:
Considering most people become sexually active in their early teens it would take a very bold person to immediately announce that they were gay. In fact it would take a very bold person even to admit this to themselves, and if you can’t see why then really there is no point in continuing with this debate.
I think you make some good points regarding the above. However, you have missed my point. If someone is truly a “homosexual” male how are they physically able to have sex with a female?
Look at it this way…
how many truly heterosexual males are “able” to have sex with another male? Not many?..Hardly any?
And if you can have sex with both genders isn’t that called “bisexual?”
And if many of the so called “homosexuals” are indeed “bisexual” (able to have sex with either gender) then why is it so difficult to believe that many (with the proper therapy) could become “heterosexual.”
Something to think about for the truly open minded.
[/quote]
Zeb, you are on to something here. How about those males who never had a homosexual experience, but then go off to jail and because of their environment, turn to gay sex to ‘relieve’ themselves for awhile. Are they suddenly genetically reoriented? Of course not! Their environment has changed, and thus their behavior has changed – by choice (and I guess by a percieved necessity).
Again, it is a choice made and influenced by environmental factors. Of course, most gay men have never been in prision. I would submit that the environmental stimulis that “create” the gay behavioral orientation are not so apparent to young people growing up. Thus they are duped into thinking that they were born that way, etc.
Just some thoughts…
[quote]Lorisco wrote:
Stiggy wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
Some people on this site a) never had anal sex witha lady and b) never watched a Rocco Sifredi film…
I think people would be amazed at what the anus is capable of… ha ha
Some guys on this site have never had sex with anyone. Surely touching their own penis…a man’s GENITALS ! Makes them gay ?
No, that just makes them in desperate need of female companionship!
Oh, and by the way, your comment was gay!
[/quote]
My comment was gay. Ok whatever you say.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Zeb, you are on to something here. How about those males who never had a homosexual experience, but then go off to jail and because of their environment, turn to gay sex to ‘relieve’ themselves for awhile. Are they suddenly genetically reoriented? Of course not! Their environment has changed, and thus their behavior has changed – by choice (and I guess by a percieved necessity).
Again, it is a choice made and influenced by environmental factors. Of course, most gay men have never been in prision. I would submit that the environmental stimulis that “create” the gay behavioral orientation are not so apparent to young people growing up. Thus they are duped into thinking that they were born that way, etc.
Just some thoughts…
[/quote]
From people I know that have been ‘inside’ it would appear that never has the phrase ‘every hole’s a goal’ been truer. It’s not about sexuality.
Try telling one of those people who had sex with a man in prison that they are now gay and you are likely to send them straight back inside after they’ve murdered you.
[quote]forlife wrote:
juninho wrote:
Anyway, the stats you used regarding gay men who’ve had heterosexual encounters is hardly proof of anything. Considering most people become sexually active in their early teens it would take a very bold person to immediately announce that they were gay. In fact it would take a very bold person even to admit this to themselves, and if you can’t see why then really there is no point in continuing with this debate.
Exactly. As concluded by the National Association of Social Workers:
Social stigmatization of lesbian, gay, and bisexual people is widespread and is a primary motivating factor in leading some people to seek sexual orientation changes. Sexual orientation conversion therapies assume that homosexual orientation is both pathological and freely chosen. No data demonstrate that reparative or conversion therapies are effective, and in fact they may be harmful.
NASW believes social workers have the responsibility to clients to explain the prevailing knowledge concerning sexual orientation and the lack of data reporting positive outcomes with reparative therapy. NASW discourages social workers from providing treatments designed to change sexual orientation or from referring practitioners or programs that claim to do so.[/quote]
How much of this is “science” in the true sense, and how much of this is the result of the ultra gay lobby? [quote]
After reviewing the scientific evidence, they noted:
The increase in media campaigns, often coupled with coercive messages from family and community members, has created an environment in which lesbians and gay men often are pressured to seek reparative or conversion therapies, which cannot and will not change sexual orientation.[/quote]
Correct, because everyone around them sees that their behavior is not normal. The same would go for someone who would have the “orientation” of not wearing pants when they go outside. Should we all just sit around and not tell them that this is not normal behavior? [quote]
Also, as found by the American Psychological Association:
Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?
No, human beings cannot choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.[/quote]
That is an opinion. That is a belief – you and others believe that people cannot choose, but it is born. However, you have no evidence of this.[quote]
Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?
No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable. [/quote]
There are those who have changed and never have gone back. As with a mathematical theorem, you have to throw out the hypothesis when you find even one example to the contrary. Sorry…[quote]
Similarly, based on scientific evidence, the American Academy of Pediatrics concluded:
Therapy directed specifically at changing sexual orientation is contraindicated, since it can provoke guilt and anxiety while having little or no potential for achieving changes in orientation."[/quote]
So, in a effort not to make people “feel bad” about their sin, we do nothing but encourage them deeper into their sin. Funny we don’t do this with people who habitually steal, use drugs, gamble, etc. [quote]
The fundamentalist bigots in this thread have no answer to the above facts. They bury their heads in the sand and pretend these scientific and mental health organizations don’t know what they are talking about.[/quote]
Well, here you go again with your name calling. When you cannot come up with FACTS, just bash the people who take the other position. Portray me and others who take positions like I do all you wish. I could care less. The facts are not on your side and your case is not compelling. You just WANT it to be so because you want to stay in your sin. [quote]
They point to organizations like Exodus, which as I showed earlier, are filled with men who claim they have “changed” only to end up sleeping with one another. [/quote]
And also filled with men who have stayed straight. What about those people? Just dismiss this because it wouldn’t fit into your agenda, right?[quote]
They also fail to understand that even if a small number of bisexual males do “change” from liking men to liking women, that means nothing for people that are truly homosexual. [/quote]
Again, truly homosexual men have come out and stayed out of homosexuality. You are simply wrong here. [quote]
The statistics reviewed by the above organizations, and the scientific conclusions drawn based on those statistics, clearly show that for the large majority of people, changing one’s sexual orientation is not possible, and attempting to do so can in fact be damaging.[/quote]
You have shown nothing of the sort. You have shown opinions, and then when confronted with an organization which boasts of many conversions, you scoff at it and point to the ones who have gone back, because those who have been successful do not fit into your gay agenda.
Gaylogic to the core again!
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
However, if “gayness” was genetic, then nobody would ever come out – you couldn’t.[/quote]
Again, don’t confuse sexual orientation with behavior. You can hide your orientation for various reasons (religious beliefs, social pressures, etc.) but that doesn’t change who you actually find attractive. Sexual orientation is determined by who you would choose to have sex with, lacking any external pressures to the contrary.
Trying to live contrary to your orientation has the potential for damaging people’s lives, as noted by the conclusions I shared earlier from the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association, etc.
The one thing I like about you as opposed to some of the others in this thread is that you are very clear on why you oppose homosexuality. You don’t pull selective statistics while ignoring contradicting statistics from the major medical and mental health organizations in the world. Instead, you simply say that your religious belief is that homosexuality is wrong.
Of course, I disagree with your religious beliefs and even if I didn’t, I don’t believe people should try to enforce their religious beliefs on others. But I do appreciate your honesty.
[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
steveo5801 wrote:
Zeb, you are on to something here. How about those males who never had a homosexual experience, but then go off to jail and because of their environment, turn to gay sex to ‘relieve’ themselves for awhile. Are they suddenly genetically reoriented? Of course not! Their environment has changed, and thus their behavior has changed – by choice (and I guess by a percieved necessity).
Again, it is a choice made and influenced by environmental factors. Of course, most gay men have never been in prision. I would submit that the environmental stimulis that “create” the gay behavioral orientation are not so apparent to young people growing up. Thus they are duped into thinking that they were born that way, etc.
Just some thoughts…
From people I know that have been ‘inside’ it would appear that never has the phrase ‘every hole’s a goal’ been truer. It’s not about sexuality.
Try telling one of those people who had sex with a man in prison that they are now gay and you are likely to send them straight back inside after they’ve murdered you.
[/quote]
No, I think you might have missed my point. My point was that these men are not gay, but have behaved in a gay manner due to their environmental conditions. Thus, this would be a strong indication that there is not a genetic component, but only an environmental one.
Please read my post again…
[quote]1-packlondoner wrote:
Next time could you just link to the information you steal to make all your points…?
All this scrolling hurts my weedy little lefty communist PC mouse finger and I’m sure 93 of the pages of this thread could be similar lengthy stuff. Read it. Distil it. Interperate it. Sum it up or sommink. For the sake of my poor finger…
Thanks… Now we can resume hostilities… :-)[/quote]
I never wanted any hostilities. I’m just tired of the PC crowd trying to masquerrade as…something else.
Nothing personal on my end.
[quote]Stiggy wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
Stiggy wrote:
1-packlondoner wrote:
Some people on this site a) never had anal sex witha lady and b) never watched a Rocco Sifredi film…
I think people would be amazed at what the anus is capable of… ha ha
Some guys on this site have never had sex with anyone. Surely touching their own penis…a man’s GENITALS ! Makes them gay ?
No, that just makes them in desperate need of female companionship!
Oh, and by the way, your comment was gay!
My comment was gay. Ok whatever you say.[/quote]
Just messing with you Bro, lighten up!
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
Their environment has changed, and thus their behavior has changed – by choice (and I guess by a percieved necessity).
[/quote]
Yet again…don’t confuse behavior with orientation.
The only way to know a person’s orientation is to see what gender they choose, in the ABSENCE OF ARTIFICIAL RESTRAINTS. Social pressures, religious beliefs, physical imprisonment, etc. can all influence BEHAVIOR without touching the core ORIENTATION of the individual.
[quote]forlife wrote:
Sexual orientation is determined by who you would choose to have sex with, lacking any external pressures to the contrary.[/quote]
Then by that definition most who call themselves “homosexual” are actually “bisexual” as they have had sex with females.
Again, how can the typical heterosexal man have sex with another man?
Answer: In just about every case…they can’t. Why? Because they are truly “heterosexual.”
You were married…to a woman for 20 years was it? And in those 20 years you never cheated on her (according to what you said). And you were not “damaged.”
It might be time to drop that sorry line.
[quote]steveo5801 wrote:
You have shown nothing of the sort. You have shown opinions
[/quote]
Wrong. Every major medical and mental health organization in the world REVIEWED THE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE ON HOMOSEXUALITY, AND DREW THEIR CONCLUSIONS BASED ON THAT EVIDENCE. To dismiss their universal conclusions as merely “opinions” is outright dishonest and disingenuous.
If you really expect people to believe that all of these organizations (the American Medical Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Psychiatric Association, and the long list of other highly respected scientific organizations) are merely sharing an “opinion” rather than basing on their conclusions on objective facts, you are doing nothing but burying your head in the sand. You know that as well as I do, even if you won’t admit it.