Boxing with Son is Child Abuse? Really?

Off Topic
21

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Sweet Revenge wrote:
I don’t think this is abuse (although I wasn’t there), but a professional boxer sparring with his kid is a lot different than a regular Joe boxing with his kid. I remember hearing that a professional boxers hands are legally considered lethal weapons.[/quote]

No.

If Anything a Boxer or Trained person has MORE hand-muscle control than a person just swinging wild.

The problem I have is using a sparing session as a punishment tool. If you want to teach your child to box and during the lesson he gets tagged is one thing to do it in anger with the intent to cause pain as a lesson is something else.

At 16 if the kid is fucking up you need to find options other than an uppercut.[/quote]

Exactly right. Could not have said it better.

It’s not the boxing that’s the problem, it’s the using of it as punishment.

22

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
I’m sure he pulled punches with his son.

My dad boxed with me as a kid. It was good reflex training and taught me how to not “shut down” when a punch is coming for your face.

We stopped sparring at the point in which I was old/big enough to hurt him… which I did.[/quote]

Agreed. I grew up boxing and with karate. This is not child abuse. Not to mention, I see the opposite side of this (complete avoidance of ANY physical or even vocal discipline at all) as way worse. I have seen kids destroy an office while mom just sat there calmly saying, “please, darling, don’t do that” 5,000 times over.

Honestly, a 16 year old boy is not a child.[/quote]

I get what you all are saying Loudog, RB. But squaring off with the kid is giving him the idea that he may be your Equal. A child even at 16 should never think you are in charge only because you are stronger,faster.

A dad should be able to be 100lbs smaller than his kid and still be able to get that same respect as if he was God Almighty.

My grandmother was tiny and at 14 my oldest brother who was already near 6’ 190lbs was told to go get a switch…he went and got the fucking switch. Not from fear of her power but out of sheer respect that she WAS in charge.

23

[quote]atypical1 wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
I will never agree with a kid having an option to raise his hand to a parent while being disciplined.

I do not think this was anything more than pops showing the kid he was not in charge Dad is. I just think it was not a good way to show it.

If you’re teaching the boy to defend himself and he takes some pops while training then shit it’s less than the boy will get on the street. No issue (except to the nosey neighbors).

I think he wanted the kid to see he was not an equal by giving him a chance. I don’t agree with giving them the chance.

[/quote]

As a father I agree with this.

Putting on gloves and boxing is a great idea if the purpose is to teach him fighting skills or even just for fun. I think every dad should have some physical interaction like that whether it’s wrestling, boxing, or simply playing tackle football. Of course I’m speaking from the point of view of someone who’s athletic.

Punishment should be just that. Sparring is not punishment, it’s fighting. As a father I shouldn’t need to show my kid who’s boss by fighting him. If that’s what it takes then I haven’t done my job very well. Being a father is like any other leadership position in that you have to figure out how to get respect and typically violence isn’t the best way for that.

As far as how to punish a 16 year old, there’s certainly ways but none are universal. I mean taking away his phone might be a big deal to him or it might not be. Maybe it’s a matter of some sort of grounding or maybe it’s taking away his phone. Hell, maybe it’s a month of 5 am wake ups with a PT session thrown in. I can’t tell you what the solution is because I don’t know the kid. The key is to figure out what motivates them and use that as a tool. That’s the job of being a parent after all. It’s work and it takes some thinking and creativity. I know for me an ass kicking never worked because (a) I became tougher and it didn’t bother me and (b) it was a short duration. So my dad hit me a few times? Did it stop me from doing what I wanted to do? Of course not because I knew all I would have to do was take a few wallops from the belt which would be over quickly and I could easily put up with. Once they started taking things away from me (like my freedom) then I started to think twice. But that’s what motivated me.

Besides, if the message you’re sending to the kid is one of “you can do what you want as long as you can kick the ass of whatever authority figure catches you” what do you think will happen?

Interesting discussion.

james

[/quote]

Also a great post

24

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
I’m sure he pulled punches with his son.

My dad boxed with me as a kid. It was good reflex training and taught me how to not “shut down” when a punch is coming for your face.

We stopped sparring at the point in which I was old/big enough to hurt him… which I did.[/quote]

Agreed. I grew up boxing and with karate. This is not child abuse. Not to mention, I see the opposite side of this (complete avoidance of ANY physical or even vocal discipline at all) as way worse. I have seen kids destroy an office while mom just sat there calmly saying, “please, darling, don’t do that” 5,000 times over.

Honestly, a 16 year old boy is not a child.[/quote]

I get what you all are saying Loudog, RB. But squaring off with the kid is giving him the idea that he may be your Equal. A child even at 16 should never think you are in charge only because you are stronger,faster.

A dad should be able to be 100lbs smaller than his kid and still be able to get that same respect as if he was God Almighty.

My grandmother was tiny and at 14 my oldest brother who was already near 6’ 190lbs was told to go get a switch…he went and got the fucking switch. Not from fear of her power but out of sheer respect that she WAS in charge.
[/quote]

You are holding fast to the SHOULD factor. I don’t know about everyone else, but I have seen firsthand a teenager try to “man up” to his parent. In those situations, a point NEEDS to be made. Conventional means rarely work in these situations.

25

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
I’m sure he pulled punches with his son.

My dad boxed with me as a kid. It was good reflex training and taught me how to not “shut down” when a punch is coming for your face.

We stopped sparring at the point in which I was old/big enough to hurt him… which I did.[/quote]

Agreed. I grew up boxing and with karate. This is not child abuse. Not to mention, I see the opposite side of this (complete avoidance of ANY physical or even vocal discipline at all) as way worse. I have seen kids destroy an office while mom just sat there calmly saying, “please, darling, don’t do that” 5,000 times over.

Honestly, a 16 year old boy is not a child.[/quote]

I get what you all are saying Loudog, RB. But squaring off with the kid is giving him the idea that he may be your Equal. A child even at 16 should never think you are in charge only because you are stronger,faster.

A dad should be able to be 100lbs smaller than his kid and still be able to get that same respect as if he was God Almighty.

My grandmother was tiny and at 14 my oldest brother who was already near 6’ 190lbs was told to go get a switch…he went and got the fucking switch. Not from fear of her power but out of sheer respect that she WAS in charge.
[/quote]

You are holding fast to the SHOULD factor. I don’t know about everyone else, but I have seen firsthand a teenager try to “man up” to his parent. In those situations, a point NEEDS to be made. Conventional means rarely work in these situations. [/quote]

I’ve seen it also. But does that mean because the kid wants to stand toe to toe you should play along.
Put it this way. What if the kid is stronger?

Let’s say Iron Dwarf if the dad and PX is the 16 yr old…both at current size. How does going toe to toe work as a punishment?

I’m in charge because I’m in charge you raise a hand to me the parent then you are telling me your ass can fend for yourself. If you don’t like my punishment ( the belt, no car, no anything but a room or whatever you choose) then the door is over to the left if the cops come and take me away then see how you enjoy living solo on the street. But at no time are we equals with the rules of my house.

What I’m saying is if you live under my roof your ass does not get a chance to beat me.

26

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
I’m sure he pulled punches with his son.

My dad boxed with me as a kid. It was good reflex training and taught me how to not “shut down” when a punch is coming for your face.

We stopped sparring at the point in which I was old/big enough to hurt him… which I did.[/quote]

Agreed. I grew up boxing and with karate. This is not child abuse. Not to mention, I see the opposite side of this (complete avoidance of ANY physical or even vocal discipline at all) as way worse. I have seen kids destroy an office while mom just sat there calmly saying, “please, darling, don’t do that” 5,000 times over.

Honestly, a 16 year old boy is not a child.[/quote]

I get what you all are saying Loudog, RB. But squaring off with the kid is giving him the idea that he may be your Equal. A child even at 16 should never think you are in charge only because you are stronger,faster.

A dad should be able to be 100lbs smaller than his kid and still be able to get that same respect as if he was God Almighty.

My grandmother was tiny and at 14 my oldest brother who was already near 6’ 190lbs was told to go get a switch…he went and got the fucking switch. Not from fear of her power but out of sheer respect that she WAS in charge.
[/quote]

You are holding fast to the SHOULD factor. I don’t know about everyone else, but I have seen firsthand a teenager try to “man up” to his parent. In those situations, a point NEEDS to be made. Conventional means rarely work in these situations. [/quote]

I’ve seen it also. But does that mean because the kid wants to stand toe to toe you should play along.
Put it this way. What if the kid is stronger?

Let’s say Iron Dwarf if the dad and PX is the 16 yr old…both at current size. How does going toe to toe work as a punishment?

I’m in charge because I’m in charge you raise a hand to me the parent then you are telling me your ass can fend for yourself. If you don’t like my punishment ( the belt, no car, no anything but a room or whatever you choose) then the door is over to the left if the cops come and take me away then see how you enjoy living solo on the street. But at no time are we equals with the rules of my house.

What I’m saying is if you live under my roof your ass does not get a chance to beat me.
[/quote]

I get that, and to throw your own scenario at you, if the kid is bigger and you tell him to gtfo, and he refuses???

On a side note, I’m enjoying this debate.

27

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

You are holding fast to the SHOULD factor. I don’t know about everyone else, but I have seen firsthand a teenager try to “man up” to his parent. In those situations, a point NEEDS to be made. Conventional means rarely work in these situations. [/quote]

But boxing with them is not the way to do it.

I totally agree with you, believe me. And a well placed shot to the solar plexus/liver/floating ribs when they ain’t expecting it will do that job.

But the point Four60 is making - and the point I agree with you - is that you don’t want to give your kid the CHANCE to be on equal footing with you by boxing with him. You’re not punishing him by doing that.

And while the dude in question is a different case cause he’s a pro, 98 percent of fathers are going to lose their physical prowess just as their kid is really coming into his, meaning that the manner of punishment gives them the chance to humiliate you.

It’s not the course I would take. Or my father would have.

28

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

I get that, and to throw your own scenario at you, if the kid is bigger and you tell him to gtfo, and he refuses???

[/quote]

If you can’t do it yourself physically, you call the cops.

29

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Rodimus Black wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
I’m sure he pulled punches with his son.

My dad boxed with me as a kid. It was good reflex training and taught me how to not “shut down” when a punch is coming for your face.

We stopped sparring at the point in which I was old/big enough to hurt him… which I did.[/quote]

Agreed. I grew up boxing and with karate. This is not child abuse. Not to mention, I see the opposite side of this (complete avoidance of ANY physical or even vocal discipline at all) as way worse. I have seen kids destroy an office while mom just sat there calmly saying, “please, darling, don’t do that” 5,000 times over.

Honestly, a 16 year old boy is not a child.[/quote]

I get what you all are saying Loudog, RB. But squaring off with the kid is giving him the idea that he may be your Equal. A child even at 16 should never think you are in charge only because you are stronger,faster.

A dad should be able to be 100lbs smaller than his kid and still be able to get that same respect as if he was God Almighty.

My grandmother was tiny and at 14 my oldest brother who was already near 6’ 190lbs was told to go get a switch…he went and got the fucking switch. Not from fear of her power but out of sheer respect that she WAS in charge.
[/quote]

You are holding fast to the SHOULD factor. I don’t know about everyone else, but I have seen firsthand a teenager try to “man up” to his parent. In those situations, a point NEEDS to be made. Conventional means rarely work in these situations. [/quote]

I’ve seen it also. But does that mean because the kid wants to stand toe to toe you should play along.
Put it this way. What if the kid is stronger?

Let’s say Iron Dwarf if the dad and PX is the 16 yr old…both at current size. How does going toe to toe work as a punishment?

I’m in charge because I’m in charge you raise a hand to me the parent then you are telling me your ass can fend for yourself. If you don’t like my punishment ( the belt, no car, no anything but a room or whatever you choose) then the door is over to the left if the cops come and take me away then see how you enjoy living solo on the street. But at no time are we equals with the rules of my house.

What I’m saying is if you live under my roof your ass does not get a chance to beat me.
[/quote]

I get that, and to throw your own scenario at you, if the kid is bigger and you tell him to gtfo, and he refuses???

On a side note, I’m enjoying this debate. [/quote]

AHAHAhahah, At 16 I would hope you know the kid enough and he knows you enough that it does not get that far. But once a kid see’s you as a liar then your Job just became a whole lot harder. For some reason I’m seeing 16yr old X telling Dwarf he ain’t leaving…I’m trying to figure out how ID is going to work this one…Kid’s gotta sleep sometime.

30

How can it be that pussies rule society?

Our pussification began around the time videogames came to exist, too. Tell me I’m wrong.

31

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:
[And a well placed shot to the solar plexus/liver/floating ribs when they ain’t expecting it will do that job.

[/quote]

This is what I’ve been waiting for.

As for the reversal question, I do agree.

32

I bet junior won’t do it again.

Ends justify the means.

33

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I bet junior won’t do it again.

Ends justify the means.[/quote]

I bet he will, because he’s not stupid and I’m sure he realizes that all of the negative media attention drawn to his father for doing this means that he’ll never be able to do it again.

34

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I bet junior won’t do it again.

Ends justify the means.[/quote]

I bet he will, because he’s not stupid and I’m sure he realizes that all of the negative media attention drawn to his father for doing this means that he’ll never be able to do it again.[/quote]

?

Children aren’t usually enemies with their parents…and like I stated before, I grew up with boxing and karate. It wasn’t rare for me to spar with adults. I could see this scenario happening if I had been 16 and tried to step to my dad. Only now is it a crime to physically discipline your child in any way that ENTIRE COUNTRY doesn’t see as appropriate.

Unless the kid hates his dad, I seriously don’t see him acting the same way again as if he is daring dad to touch him.

I also love how these discussions ignore the flipside of letting these kids do whatever the hell they want.

35

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I bet junior won’t do it again.

Ends justify the means.[/quote]

I bet he will, because he’s not stupid and I’m sure he realizes that all of the negative media attention drawn to his father for doing this means that he’ll never be able to do it again.[/quote]

?

Children aren’t usually enemies with their parents…and like I stated before, I grew up with boxing and karate. It wasn’t rare for me to spar with adults. I could see this scenario happening if I had been 16 and tried to step to my dad. Only now is it a crime to physically discipline your child in any way that ENTIRE COUNTRY doesn’t see as appropriate.

Unless the kid hates his dad, I seriously don’t see him acting the same way again as if he is daring dad to touch him.

I also love how these discussions ignore the flipside of letting these kids do whatever the hell they want.[/quote]

I do realize that you are entirely incapable of taking events such as this one at a time without making some sort of sweeping (and mostly false) generalization about the state of society, but seriously, try to.

You look ridiculous playin this game over and over of “WHY CAN’T I HIT WOMEN/KIDS/INVALIDS/PETS/BRICK WALLS IF THEY STEP TO ME!!!??”

Fuck. I wouldn’t want you on my jury.

36

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I bet junior won’t do it again.

Ends justify the means.[/quote]

I bet he will, because he’s not stupid and I’m sure he realizes that all of the negative media attention drawn to his father for doing this means that he’ll never be able to do it again.[/quote]

?

Children aren’t usually enemies with their parents…and like I stated before, I grew up with boxing and karate. It wasn’t rare for me to spar with adults. I could see this scenario happening if I had been 16 and tried to step to my dad. Only now is it a crime to physically discipline your child in any way that ENTIRE COUNTRY doesn’t see as appropriate.

Unless the kid hates his dad, I seriously don’t see him acting the same way again as if he is daring dad to touch him.

I also love how these discussions ignore the flipside of letting these kids do whatever the hell they want.[/quote]

So at 16 you would have taken a shot at your pops? Are you saying it’s ok for a kid to fight his dad?

37

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I bet junior won’t do it again.

Ends justify the means.[/quote]

I bet he will, because he’s not stupid and I’m sure he realizes that all of the negative media attention drawn to his father for doing this means that he’ll never be able to do it again.[/quote]

?

Children aren’t usually enemies with their parents…and like I stated before, I grew up with boxing and karate. It wasn’t rare for me to spar with adults. I could see this scenario happening if I had been 16 and tried to step to my dad. Only now is it a crime to physically discipline your child in any way that ENTIRE COUNTRY doesn’t see as appropriate.

Unless the kid hates his dad, I seriously don’t see him acting the same way again as if he is daring dad to touch him.

I also love how these discussions ignore the flipside of letting these kids do whatever the hell they want.[/quote]

I do realize that you are entirely incapable of taking events such as this one at a time without making some sort of sweeping (and mostly false) generalization about the state of society, but seriously, try to.

You look ridiculous playin this game over and over of “WHY CAN’T I HIT WOMEN/KIDS/INVALIDS/PETS/BRICK WALLS IF THEY STEP TO ME!!!??”

Fuck. I wouldn’t want you on my jury.[/quote]

Dude, seriously…a kid who GREW UP WITH A PROFESSIONAL BOXER is who you think was damaged by sparring with his dad because blood was drawn?

At 16???

38

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I bet junior won’t do it again.

Ends justify the means.[/quote]

I bet he will, because he’s not stupid and I’m sure he realizes that all of the negative media attention drawn to his father for doing this means that he’ll never be able to do it again.[/quote]

?

Children aren’t usually enemies with their parents…and like I stated before, I grew up with boxing and karate. It wasn’t rare for me to spar with adults. I could see this scenario happening if I had been 16 and tried to step to my dad. Only now is it a crime to physically discipline your child in any way that ENTIRE COUNTRY doesn’t see as appropriate.

Unless the kid hates his dad, I seriously don’t see him acting the same way again as if he is daring dad to touch him.

I also love how these discussions ignore the flipside of letting these kids do whatever the hell they want.[/quote]

So at 16 you would have taken a shot at your pops? Are you saying it’s ok for a kid to fight his dad?
[/quote]

I never would have taken a shot at my dad. My dad could take me out.

Why is it wrong for a kid to fight his dad when his dad knows how tom pull a punch and the whole goal is to teach a lesson?

39

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

[quote]Professor X wrote:
I bet junior won’t do it again.

Ends justify the means.[/quote]

I bet he will, because he’s not stupid and I’m sure he realizes that all of the negative media attention drawn to his father for doing this means that he’ll never be able to do it again.[/quote]

?

Children aren’t usually enemies with their parents…and like I stated before, I grew up with boxing and karate. It wasn’t rare for me to spar with adults. I could see this scenario happening if I had been 16 and tried to step to my dad. Only now is it a crime to physically discipline your child in any way that ENTIRE COUNTRY doesn’t see as appropriate.

Unless the kid hates his dad, I seriously don’t see him acting the same way again as if he is daring dad to touch him.

I also love how these discussions ignore the flipside of letting these kids do whatever the hell they want.[/quote]

I do realize that you are entirely incapable of taking events such as this one at a time without making some sort of sweeping (and mostly false) generalization about the state of society, but seriously, try to.

You look ridiculous playin this game over and over of “WHY CAN’T I HIT WOMEN/KIDS/INVALIDS/PETS/BRICK WALLS IF THEY STEP TO ME!!!??”

Fuck. I wouldn’t want you on my jury.[/quote]

Dude, seriously…a kid who GREW UP WITH A PROFESSIONAL BOXER is who you think was damaged by sparring with his dad because blood was drawn?

At 16???
[/quote]

I don’t think he was damaged you dense motherfucker. All I am saying is that :

  1. It’s not an appropriate way to punish a kid because of the circumstances it could lead to

  2. It doesn’t teach his kid to listen to authority, it teaches him that if he can fight well enough, he can beat authority (which if you’ve ever had any trouble with the cops, you know isn’t true)

  3. Because of the negative media attention, his son knows that this punishment will not happen again.

40

[quote]FightinIrish26 wrote:

I don’t think he was damaged you dense motherfucker.[/quote]

Aaaah, then there is no problem.

Oh, wait.

[quote] All I am saying is that :

  1. It’s not an appropriate way to punish a kid because of the circumstances it could lead to[/quote]

? Who wrote this book about what all is appropriate? From what I can tell, most people seem to wait for a media headline and then they just cry about how righteous they are. Why is it not appropriate? Last century no one would have batted an eye at this.

[quote]

  1. It doesn’t teach his kid to listen to authority, it teaches him that if he can fight well enough, he can beat authority (which if you’ve ever had any trouble with the cops, you know isn’t true)[/quote]

Bullshit. It also teaches him that dad knows more than he does and shouldn’t be challenged. I seriously doubt the 16 year old in question is some weak blade of grass who got taken advantage of.

[quote]

  1. Because of the negative media attention, his son knows that this punishment will not happen again.[/quote]

That doesn’t mean he will act then same. There is much to be said about honor and he could end up blaming himself for any loss of it to his family over this.