Bowe Bergdahl

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

What I am saying is that the policy should be we either bring everyone home by any means we can regardless of whether they are a Senator or the guy working the drive through window at McDonald’s or we never negotiate to bring anyone. Amounts, prisoner exchange, etc… are just the details specific to each event. The overriding principle, imo, is we should go for everyone. No one left behind.

I am mot for the government calculatong worth in most cases.[/quote]

This was brought up but I’m too lazy to see if it fit within this context, but do you think the efforts to get people back should change based on whether they put themselves in that situation or not? Like say a reporter vs a vet?[/quote]

I don’t think the effort should change. The situations are pretty different though.

The no one is left behind mantra is very much a military one. I admit I’m not sure how that would apply to a person intentionally and freely entering Pakistan, for example, and being captured by a terrorist group.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

What I am saying is that the policy should be we either bring everyone home by any means we can regardless of whether they are a Senator or the guy working the drive through window at McDonald’s or we never negotiate to bring anyone. Amounts, prisoner exchange, etc… are just the details specific to each event. The overriding principle, imo, is we should go for everyone. No one left behind.

I am mot for the government calculatong worth in most cases.[/quote]

This was brought up but I’m too lazy to see if it fit within this context, but do you think the efforts to get people back should change based on whether they put themselves in that situation or not? Like say a reporter vs a vet?[/quote]

I don’t think the effort should change. The situations are pretty different though.

The no one is left behind mantra is very much a military one. I admit I’m not sure how that would apply to a person intentionally and freely entering Pakistan, for example, and being captured by a terrorist group. [/quote]

This is one of the things that makes it difficult for me to accept the Begdahl trade. Granted that he was ordered into the theater of combat operations, but he voluntarily left his post and voluntarily sought out the Taliban. Those were actions he freely decided to take and in my opinion they have an impact on the recovery effort because of that.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

What I am saying is that the policy should be we either bring everyone home by any means we can regardless of whether they are a Senator or the guy working the drive through window at McDonald’s or we never negotiate to bring anyone. Amounts, prisoner exchange, etc… are just the details specific to each event. The overriding principle, imo, is we should go for everyone. No one left behind.

I am mot for the government calculatong worth in most cases.[/quote]

This was brought up but I’m too lazy to see if it fit within this context, but do you think the efforts to get people back should change based on whether they put themselves in that situation or not? Like say a reporter vs a vet?[/quote]

I don’t think the effort should change. The situations are pretty different though.

The no one is left behind mantra is very much a military one. I admit I’m not sure how that would apply to a person intentionally and freely entering Pakistan, for example, and being captured by a terrorist group. [/quote]

This is one of the things that makes it difficult for me to accept the Begdahl trade. Granted that he was ordered into the theater of combat operations, but he voluntarily left his post and voluntarily sought out the Taliban. Those were actions he freely decided to take and in my opinion they have an impact on the recovery effort because of that.[/quote]
He is now denying that he sought them out.[/quote]

And his lawyer is denying that there is any evidence to support the claim that soldiers died while looking for him.

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
And on the lighter side…

[/quote]

I absolutely love duffelblog. I follow their satire most all the time lol[/quote]

Very funny.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

What I am saying is that the policy should be we either bring everyone home by any means we can regardless of whether they are a Senator or the guy working the drive through window at McDonald’s or we never negotiate to bring anyone. Amounts, prisoner exchange, etc… are just the details specific to each event. The overriding principle, imo, is we should go for everyone. No one left behind.

I am mot for the government calculatong worth in most cases.[/quote]

This was brought up but I’m too lazy to see if it fit within this context, but do you think the efforts to get people back should change based on whether they put themselves in that situation or not? Like say a reporter vs a vet?[/quote]

I don’t think the effort should change. The situations are pretty different though.

The no one is left behind mantra is very much a military one. I admit I’m not sure how that would apply to a person intentionally and freely entering Pakistan, for example, and being captured by a terrorist group. [/quote]

So assume 3 good men die in the effort to bring back people in the following situations:

a) A deserter that “joined” the enemy
b) A reporter captured by the enemy
c) A defector that suddenly realized the media wasn’t “a grand Jewish conspiracy and America wasn’t the worlds greatest evil” and doesn’t want to be a terrorist anymore.
d) A pilot shot down over enemy lines

Was the price of 3 men worth it for all of them? Are their any worth more than those 3 men? Are they any not worth those men’s lives?

Beans brings up a good point. Why is it assumed all American lives are equal ? This Bergdahl voiced his concerns, mailed his uniform home, and willingly left to seek out the enemy.

I am thinking this Bergdahl trade was more about beginning the process of emptying Gitmo than about bringing home an American. What a great way to hide an agenda behind something as infallible as bringing home a captured American soldier.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

What I am saying is that the policy should be we either bring everyone home by any means we can regardless of whether they are a Senator or the guy working the drive through window at McDonald’s or we never negotiate to bring anyone. Amounts, prisoner exchange, etc… are just the details specific to each event. The overriding principle, imo, is we should go for everyone. No one left behind.

I am not for the government calculating worth in most cases.[/quote]

This was brought up but I’m too lazy to see if it fit within this context, but do you think the efforts to get people back should change based on whether they put themselves in that situation or not? Like say a reporter vs a vet?[/quote]

I don’t think the effort should change. The situations are pretty different though.

The no one is left behind mantra is very much a military one. I admit I’m not sure how that would apply to a person intentionally and freely entering Pakistan, for example, and being captured by a terrorist group. [/quote]

So assume 3 good men die in the effort to bring back people in the following situations:

a) A deserter that “joined” the enemy
b) A reporter captured by the enemy
c) A defector that suddenly realized the media wasn’t “a grand Jewish conspiracy and America wasn’t the worlds greatest evil” and doesn’t want to be a terrorist anymore.
d) A pilot shot down over enemy lines

Was the price of 3 men worth it for all of them? Are their any worth more than those 3 men? Are they any not worth those men’s lives?[/quote]

These example are tough because they aren’t black and white situations nor are they easily comparable, imo, but I’ll try to answer.

If we know A & C are deserters / defectors (This is an indisputable fact) than no I don’t think any effort should be made to bring them home. As far as I’m concerned they’re the enemy now. If C can be an asset to the war effort than efforts can be made to bring him back as a source of intelligence, but not because he’s an American.

The reporter is a tough one. He / she voluntarily went into a dangerous situation. Like I previously said, I think almost all military personnel would voluntarily put themselves in harms way to get a reporter, in this situation back, and that could result in the death of 3 good men. Protecting America and Americans is kind of the point of having us in uniform, imo. It’s really the only point, imo.

The pilot is easy. We don’t leave our military men behind, period. I’m confident 100% of real military personnel would voluntarily risk their life to get the pilot back. The difference, aside from one being a civilian and the other being in the service, is the pilot has no say in their orders. A pilot, like every other service member, has to follow orders, which can put them in harms way. Sure, they’re volunteers, but unlike the reporter they can’t back-out, nor should they be able to.

So to answer your question, no, I guess the price of 3 men is not worth it in all 3 scenarios. I think a lot that has more to do with the actions of the individuals in the scenarios more so than a policy or principles issue though.

My issue is not so much about the decision of whether to go after a person or not. My issue is with the government deciding what we’re willing to give up in order to get the person back after that decision is made. I don’t think a pilot is worth more than a U.S. Senator and I don’t think a U.S. Senator is worth more than a french fry engineer. Giving the government carte blanche to determine the value of life is a slippery slope I for one do not want to slip on. I can already see the ramifications in other areas, specifically healthcare.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:
Beans brings up a good point. Why is it assumed all American lives are equal ? This Bergdahl voiced his concerns, mailed his uniform home, and willingly left to seek out the enemy.
[/quote]
I don’t believe all lives are equal. I don’t want the government deciding what lives are worth though.

Is your spouses life worth the same as your child’s life? Is your spouses life equal to your child’s?

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Is your spouses life worth the same as your child’s life? Is your spouses life equal to your child’s? [/quote]

Easier to replace a spouse than to replace a child. And you don’t share DNA with a spouse. So no.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Is your spouses life worth the same as your child’s life? Is your spouses life equal to your child’s? [/quote]

Easier to replace a spouse than to replace a child. And you don’t share DNA with a spouse. So no.[/quote]

Really, it’s pretty easy to replace a child. Hell, I could replace 1 with 10 pretty easily.

Why does shared DNA matter?

Is that a no to both questions?

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

My issue is not so much about the decision of whether to go after a person or not. My issue is with the government deciding what we’re willing to give up in order to get the person back after that decision is made. I don’t think a pilot is worth more than a U.S. Senator and I don’t think a U.S. Senator is worth more than a french fry engineer. Giving the government carte blanche to determine the value of life is a slippery slope I for one do not want to slip on. I can already see the ramifications in other areas, specifically healthcare. [/quote]

Fair enough.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Is your spouses life worth the same as your child’s life? Is your spouses life equal to your child’s? [/quote]

You’re going to hate yourself either way if you had to choose. And the survivor may very well hate you too.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Is your spouses life worth the same as your child’s life? Is your spouses life equal to your child’s? [/quote]

Easier to replace a spouse than to replace a child. And you don’t share DNA with a spouse. So no.[/quote]

Really, it’s pretty easy to replace a child. Hell, I could replace 1 with 10 pretty easily.

Why does shared DNA matter?

Is that a no to both questions? [/quote]

They were the same question. “Is worth the same” means the same as “is equal to”.

Shared DNA matters because you are actually physically related to that person. Why is an American life worth more to you than a Somali life? Because you share more in common with the American, even if you’ve never met him. Who is more valuable, your brother or a co-worker? Your brother, because he shares your blood. Same calculus applies.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Is your spouses life worth the same as your child’s life? Is your spouses life equal to your child’s? [/quote]

You are comparing the Bergdahl situation to family ? Come on dude.

[quote]MaximusB wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Is your spouses life worth the same as your child’s life? Is your spouses life equal to your child’s? [/quote]

You are comparing the Bergdahl situation to family ? Come on dude. [/quote]

No, I’m not.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Is your spouses life worth the same as your child’s life? Is your spouses life equal to your child’s? [/quote]

Easier to replace a spouse than to replace a child. And you don’t share DNA with a spouse. So no.[/quote]

Really, it’s pretty easy to replace a child. Hell, I could replace 1 with 10 pretty easily.

Why does shared DNA matter?

Is that a no to both questions? [/quote]

They were the same question. “Is worth the same” means the same as “is equal to”.
[/quote]

I disagree at least in the context of this thread.

Let’s say I have a wife that’s a Research Doctor for NIH on the verge of curing Cancer and a 4 year old daughter that’s just learned her ABC’s. Now, the unthinkable happens. ISIS takes my wife and Al Qaeda takes my daughter. The government only has the resources to go after one of the two (assume they will go after one of them). Now some bureaucrat, IDK we’ll call him Bismark, uses a cost benefit analysis to determine which person to go after. Well, after about 7 seconds, the results are in. The wife is clearly worth more than the child.

Now to the second portion, are there lives equal. Yes, looking through the lens of a dispassionate third party (The U.S. government), those lives should be equal. They should be afforded equal protection under the constitution. The older woman’s doesn’t have some greater right to life or liberty even though she’s worth more to society.

[quote]
Shared DNA matters because you are actually physically related to that person. [/quote]

So what? I care more about my spouse than my cousin even though we share DNA. I’m sorry, but a physical relation isn’t a good enough reason for me.

[quote]
Why is an American life worth more to you than a Somali life? Because you share more in common with the American, even if you’ve never met him. [/quote]

He isn’t necessarily or automatically worth more, imo. A cold hard cost benefit analysis will probably show the American is worth more, but again I don’t feel that means the America has a greater right to life.

[quote]
Who is more valuable, your brother or a co-worker? Your brother, because he shares your blood. Same calculus applies. [/quote]

He is more valuable to me (maybe), but we aren’t talking about me. We’re talking about a third party (the government) determining worth in an analytic sense and then deciding which person has a greater right to life based on an an assessed worth.

Does Bill Gates have a greater right to life than I do? He is clearly “worth” more.

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Does Bill Gates have a greater right to life than I do? He is clearly “worth” more.

[/quote]

Eh, I don’t know about that. Dude wants a singular world government and to repeal the 2nd. Certainly isn’t worth more than you, imo.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:
Is your spouses life worth the same as your child’s life? Is your spouses life equal to your child’s? [/quote]

You’re going to hate yourself either way if you had to choose. And the survivor may very well hate you too. [/quote]

What if it isn’t my choice, but the governments? A cost benefit analysis clearly shows my wife is worth more. My daughter is a net loss at this point and my wife is a net gain. Their lives are both equal to me though, not the same mind you, but equal.

Are you comfortable with the government using a cost benefit analysis to determine who gets to live and who doesn’t?

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

Does Bill Gates have a greater right to life than I do? He is clearly “worth” more.
[/quote]

Eh, I don’t know about that. Dude wants a singular world government and to repeal the 2nd. Certainly isn’t worth more than you, imo.
[/quote]

Well I appreciate that!

Unfortunately though, if I do a cost benefit analysis Bill has me beat. His philanthropic efforts this week will probably dwarf my life long efforts. So, if some bureaucrat has chose, based on this analysis, him or me. Who gets picked? Him. 10 times out of 10.

Lets forget terrorism and look at something closer to home. Healthcare. Bill and I both need a new liver or we’re both going to die today. There’s one available, if we use a cost benefit analysis who gets it? Again, probably him; although, maybe me because of age. Substitute Mark Zuckerberger (sp) for Bill. Now who gets it?

Well, fuck.