Bowe Bergdahl: Deserter, Traitor, or Just a Pawn?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

Those weapons were used in Iran’s war against Iraq. By contrast, the Obama administration gave Stinger missiles to Qatar who then gave them to the Taliban who used them to shoot down a Chinook in Afghanistan. That didn’t even make the mainstream news. And that weapons transfer wasn’t made to save US lives. By contrast Reagan’s deal to save the lives of US civilians led to months of hearings and nearly brought down his government.
[/quote]

How many Stinger missiles did a previous administration send into Afghanistan? Hundreds? Thousands?

Are you sure that the Chinhook was shot down by an Obama Stinger?

I mean, the Mujahideen made good use of their supply of Reagan-era Stingers, to which the Mi24 Hind was particularly vulnerable. That’s the cool thing about weapons: they are apolitical. A Stinger missile in the hands of an Afghan will kill a helicopter of an occupying Soviet army just as efficiently as it will a helicopter of an occupying American army, regardless of which president approves the sale.

[quote]Varqanir wrote:

How many Stinger missiles did a previous administration send into Afghanistan? Hundreds? Thousands?

[/quote]

I don’t know. How many of them have been confirmed to have been used against US targets?

"Military records and sources reveal that on July 25, 2012, Taliban fighters in Kunar province successfully targeted a US Army CH-47 helicopter with a new generation Stinger missile…

The next day, an explosive ordnance disposal team arrived to pick through the wreckage and found unexploded pieces of a missile casing that could only belong to a Stinger missile…

The investigation took time. Arms were twisted, noses put out of joint. But when the results came back, they were stunning: The Stinger tracked back to a lot that had been signed out by the CIA recently, not during the anti-Soviet ­jihad.

[quote]

I mean, the Mujahideen made good use of their supply of Reagan-era Stingers, to which the Mi24 Hind was particularly vulnerable. That’s the cool thing about weapons: they are apolitical. A Stinger missile in the hands of an Afghan will kill a helicopter of an occupying Soviet army just as efficiently as it will a helicopter of an occupying American army, regardless of which president approves the sale.[/quote]

Yes but Stingers don’t shoot down Chinooks; IslamoNazis shoot down Chinooks.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:
The investigation took time. Arms were twisted, noses put out of joint. But when the results came back, they were stunning: The Stinger tracked back to a lot that had been signed out by the CIA recently, not during the anti-Soviet jihad.

[/quote]

Huh. Okay, I guess that’s pretty convincing.

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
^ yep. It’s disgusting. It shows his true colors.

It’s indefensible. [/quote]

This is patently false. The State Department has been in contact with Mexican authorities since the arrest of Sgt.Tahmooressi last month. Diplomacy is not an overnight endeavor, especially so when there are grounds for legitimate grievances. To be fair, the Marine in question knowingly violated the laws of a sovereign state when he entered Mexico with a .45 caliber handgun, a 12 gauge shotgun, and a semi-automatic carbine with a combat infantryman’s load of ammunition. Does the fact that he’s a US service member, which he did not announce to the arresting authorities, somehow place him above the laws of the sovereign territory he willfully entered?

What would you do if you were a policy maker? Order Delta Force to assault the prison and rescue the geographically challenged (if we are to believe his initial story of accidentally crossing the Mexican border, a country he had traveled to at least four times previously) Marine in the manner of Operation Acid Gambit?

Iran wasn’t paid $8 billion, those funds were Iranian assets that had been frozen in response to the Islamic Revolution.

The CIA supplied 50-60 FIM-92 Stingers to Qatar State Security, who then passed those SAMs onto Taliban forces? What a crock of shit. I’ve examined a military list of aviation incidents in the Afghanistan war, and no such event was recorded to have occurred on 25 July 2012 as the article you linked asserts. Ypu do realize that RPG fire alone has proven itself quite effective against the CH-47 Chinook since combat operations began in 2002?

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Iran wasn’t paid $8 billion, those funds were Iranian assets that had been frozen in response to the Islamic Revolution.

The CIA supplied 50-60 FIM-92 Stingers to Qatar State Security, who then passed those SAMs onto Taliban forces? What a crock of shit. I’ve examined a military list of aviation incidents in the Afghanistan war, and no such event was recorded to have occurred on 25 July 2012 as the article you.[/quote]

It was reported in the New York Post and their source was Kenneth R Timmerman:

In the early 1980s, Timmerman became a Middle East correspondent for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution and developed an expertise in the Middle East and the arms trade. In 1982, he was taken prisoner for 24 days by Fatah guerillas in Lebanon. He was the first journalist on the scene when Islamic militants bombed the US Embassy in 1983.

From 1985 to 1987, Timmerman was a correspondent for Defense and Armament Newsweek and Military Technology, covering the Iranâ??Iraq War and the arms industry in the Middle East. He won the Joe Petrosino Prize for Investigative Reporting in 1987 for an investigation of an Iranian arms procurement group.

From 1987 to 1993, Timmerman published the Middle East Defense News and was international correspondent for Defense Electronics. He also wrote monographs for the Simon Wiesenthal Center on efforts by Iraq, Syria and Libya to acquire weapons of mass destruction.

In 1991, Timmerman published The Death Lobby: How the West Armed Iraq after the Gulf War. Timmerman advised the United Nations Special Commission for the Disarmament of Iraq on the location of weapons plants.

In 1993, Timmerman returned to the US where he worked as a member of the staff of the U.S. House Committee on International Relations. In 1995, he founded the Foundation for Democracy in Iran with Peter Rodman, Joshua Muravchick and Iranian opposition expatriates to attempt to topple the Iranian government. He founded the Middle East Data Project to advise governments and private companies. In 1998, he made suggestions to the Rumsfeld Commission supporting the deployment of a national missile defence system.

In 1998, he wrote a piece on Osama Bin Laden and his training camps in Afghanistan just before Al-Qaeda attacked two US embassies in Africa. He also wrote features for the American Spectator criticizing the export of high-technology equipment to China, which was published as a book in 2000…

In 2003, Timmerman published Preachers of Hate: Islam and the War Against America. The French Betrayal of America was published in 2004. Timmerman returned to his field of greatest expertise with the publication of Countdown to Crisis: the Coming Nuclear Showdown with Iran in 2005.

On February 7, 2006 Sweden’s former deputy prime minister and Liberal party leader Per Ahlmark asserted that he had nominated Timmerman for a Nobel Peace Prize along with UN Ambassador John Bolton for “their repeated warnings and documentation of Iran’s secret nuclear buildup and revealing Iran’s repeated lying and false reports to the International Atomic Energy Agency.”[8] The Nobel Foundation won’t confirm nominations, however, until 50 years have passed.


So we’re expected to believe this guy is lying because you googled a list and couldn’t find the incident on it?

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:
Iran wasn’t paid $8 billion, those funds were Iranian assets that had been frozen in response to the Islamic Revolution.

The CIA supplied 50-60 FIM-92 Stingers to Qatar State Security, who then passed those SAMs onto Taliban forces? What a crock of shit. I’ve examined a military list of aviation incidents in the Afghanistan war, and no such event was recorded to have occurred on 25 July 2012 as the article you.[/quote]

It was reported in the New York Post and their source was Kenneth R Timmerman:

In the early 1980s, Timmerman became a Middle East correspondent for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution and developed an expertise in the Middle East and the arms trade. In 1982, he was taken prisoner for 24 days by Fatah guerillas in Lebanon. He was the first journalist on the scene when Islamic militants bombed the US Embassy in 1983.

From 1985 to 1987, Timmerman was a correspondent for Defense and Armament Newsweek and Military Technology, covering the Iranâ??Iraq War and the arms industry in the Middle East. He won the Joe Petrosino Prize for Investigative Reporting in 1987 for an investigation of an Iranian arms procurement group.

From 1987 to 1993, Timmerman published the Middle East Defense News and was international correspondent for Defense Electronics. He also wrote monographs for the Simon Wiesenthal Center on efforts by Iraq, Syria and Libya to acquire weapons of mass destruction.

In 1991, Timmerman published The Death Lobby: How the West Armed Iraq after the Gulf War. Timmerman advised the United Nations Special Commission for the Disarmament of Iraq on the location of weapons plants.

In 1993, Timmerman returned to the US where he worked as a member of the staff of the U.S. House Committee on International Relations. In 1995, he founded the Foundation for Democracy in Iran with Peter Rodman, Joshua Muravchick and Iranian opposition expatriates to attempt to topple the Iranian government. He founded the Middle East Data Project to advise governments and private companies. In 1998, he made suggestions to the Rumsfeld Commission supporting the deployment of a national missile defence system.

In 1998, he wrote a piece on Osama Bin Laden and his training camps in Afghanistan just before Al-Qaeda attacked two US embassies in Africa. He also wrote features for the American Spectator criticizing the export of high-technology equipment to China, which was published as a book in 2000…

In 2003, Timmerman published Preachers of Hate: Islam and the War Against America. The French Betrayal of America was published in 2004. Timmerman returned to his field of greatest expertise with the publication of Countdown to Crisis: the Coming Nuclear Showdown with Iran in 2005.

On February 7, 2006 Sweden’s former deputy prime minister and Liberal party leader Per Ahlmark asserted that he had nominated Timmerman for a Nobel Peace Prize along with UN Ambassador John Bolton for “their repeated warnings and documentation of Iran’s secret nuclear buildup and revealing Iran’s repeated lying and false reports to the International Atomic Energy Agency.”[8] The Nobel Foundation won’t confirm nominations, however, until 50 years have passed.


So we’re expected to believe this guy is lying because you googled a list and couldn’t find the incident on it?
[/quote]

You can copy and paste a Wikipedia entry. What exactly does that prove? The man was a novelist who turned into a journalist, which is evident by his speculative writing. The US military has ZERO record of the event in question, and it’s an organization that tends to keep pretty detailed records. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary (empirical) evidence, of which neither Timmerman nor you have provided. It’s yellow journalism on his part that happens to jive with your political predispositions. Find a legitimate AAR if you can.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

You can copy and paste a Wikipedia entry. What exactly does that prove? The man was a novelist who turned into a journalist, which is evident by his speculative writing.

[/quote]

Read the quote. It’s not “speculative writing.” He’s categorically asserting it as fact.

Really? You have access to those records? No you don’t do you? In fact, your “source” is a fucking Wikipedia entry entitled “list of aviation incidents in the Afghanistan war” isn’t it?

Guess what? That’s an incomplete list compiled entirely from media reports. It’s not surprising that a “hard landing” in which no one was hurt did not make it into the news.

How the hell would you know? Have you been through the footnotes of his book which hasn’t even hit the shelves yet? All we know is that a reputable author who specialises in the field asserts it as fact and that high ranking US military personnel have endorsed his book. There is absolutely no reason to suspect he’s lying and fabricated the story and every reason to believe he hasn’t. You’re deliberately being an idiot.

[quote]

It’s yellow journalism on his part that happens to jive with your political predispositions. Find a legitimate AAR if you can. [/quote]

You haven’t even read his book you bullshit artist.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
^ yep. It’s disgusting. It shows his true colors.

It’s indefensible. [/quote]

This is patently false. The State Department has been in contact with Mexican authorities since the arrest of Sgt.Tahmooressi last month. Diplomacy is not an overnight endeavor, especially so when there are grounds for legitimate grievances. To be fair, the Marine in question knowingly violated the laws of a sovereign state when he entered Mexico with a .45 caliber handgun, a 12 gauge shotgun, and a semi-automatic carbine with a combat infantryman’s load of ammunition. Does the fact that he’s a US service member, which he did not announce to the arresting authorities, somehow place him above the laws of the sovereign territory he willfully entered?

What would you do if you were a policy maker? Order Delta Force to assault the prison and rescue the geographically challenged (if we are to believe his initial story of accidentally crossing the Mexican border, a country he had traveled to at least four times previously) Marine in the manner of Operation Acid Gambit?
[/quote]

Don’t be an idiot.

The guy has diagnosed PTSD and has been tortured there like some sort of a POW.

He DID announce his (licensed in the US) weapons as soon as they stopped him.

How about, instead of your Delta Force idea, Obama gives his personal assurance that he will return for trail (or whatever else needs to be done), and has him released for now so he doesn’t at least suffer any more trauma? How about Obama leverages some behind-the-scenes power, or some of that more than 200 million dollars in aid that we give Mexico?

How about Obama uses some of that “Whatever it takes” that he found so helpful with his Taliban buddies?

Because, you know, a wrong turn isn’t quite as bad as walking over to the enemy side.[/quote]

How about if Obama says, “Give us our Marine back or I’m going to task the Marine Corps with taking him back.”

[quote]usmccds423 wrote:

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
^ yep. It’s disgusting. It shows his true colors.

It’s indefensible. [/quote]

This is patently false. The State Department has been in contact with Mexican authorities since the arrest of Sgt.Tahmooressi last month. Diplomacy is not an overnight endeavor, especially so when there are grounds for legitimate grievances. To be fair, the Marine in question knowingly violated the laws of a sovereign state when he entered Mexico with a .45 caliber handgun, a 12 gauge shotgun, and a semi-automatic carbine with a combat infantryman’s load of ammunition. Does the fact that he’s a US service member, which he did not announce to the arresting authorities, somehow place him above the laws of the sovereign territory he willfully entered?

What would you do if you were a policy maker? Order Delta Force to assault the prison and rescue the geographically challenged (if we are to believe his initial story of accidentally crossing the Mexican border, a country he had traveled to at least four times previously) Marine in the manner of Operation Acid Gambit?
[/quote]

Don’t be an idiot.

The guy has diagnosed PTSD and has been tortured there like some sort of a POW.

He DID announce his (licensed in the US) weapons as soon as they stopped him.

How about, instead of your Delta Force idea, Obama gives his personal assurance that he will return for trail (or whatever else needs to be done), and has him released for now so he doesn’t at least suffer any more trauma? How about Obama leverages some behind-the-scenes power, or some of that more than 200 million dollars in aid that we give Mexico?

How about Obama uses some of that “Whatever it takes” that he found so helpful with his Taliban buddies?

Because, you know, a wrong turn isn’t quite as bad as walking over to the enemy side.[/quote]

How about if Obama says, “Give us our Marine back or I’m going to task the Marine Corps with taking him back.”

[/quote]

Wait…shouldn’t we check his family background; his complete personnel record; and check with all the men he served with before we attempt a rescue?

Mufasa

Got it.

Just trying to understand the criteria for bringing our people home.

  1. Your buddies vouche for you.

Family background and personnel record?

Mufasa

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Got it.

Just trying to understand the criteria for bringing our people home.

  1. Your buddies vouche for you.

Family background and personnel record?

Mufasa[/quote]

There is little pity for someone who went looking for trouble and found it.

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]Brett620 wrote:
^ yep. It’s disgusting. It shows his true colors.

It’s indefensible. [/quote]

This is patently false. The State Department has been in contact with Mexican authorities since the arrest of Sgt.Tahmooressi last month. Diplomacy is not an overnight endeavor, especially so when there are grounds for legitimate grievances. To be fair, the Marine in question knowingly violated the laws of a sovereign state when he entered Mexico with a .45 caliber handgun, a 12 gauge shotgun, and a semi-automatic carbine with a combat infantryman’s load of ammunition. Does the fact that he’s a US service member, which he did not announce to the arresting authorities, somehow place him above the laws of the sovereign territory he willfully entered?

What would you do if you were a policy maker? Order Delta Force to assault the prison and rescue the geographically challenged (if we are to believe his initial story of accidentally crossing the Mexican border, a country he had traveled to at least four times previously) Marine in the manner of Operation Acid Gambit?
[/quote]

You must be kidding.

I would do it back channels first to let them “save face”.

If that didn’t work (I would give it a SHORT period of time), I would:

  • Go to TV putting pressure on them.

  • Cut off trade

  • Stop support for them battling their drug lords.

  • Close the border.

  • Make a tourism protest. Hurt their economy even more.

  • If this does not work, use force.

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]Bismark wrote:

You can copy and paste a Wikipedia entry. What exactly does that prove? The man was a novelist who turned into a journalist, which is evident by his speculative writing.

[/quote]

Read the quote. It’s not “speculative writing.” He’s categorically asserting it as fact.

Really? You have access to those records? No you don’t do you? In fact, your “source” is a fucking Wikipedia entry entitled “list of aviation incidents in the Afghanistan war” isn’t it?

Guess what? That’s an incomplete list compiled entirely from media reports. It’s not surprising that a “hard landing” in which no one was hurt did not make it into the news.

How the hell would you know? Have you been through the footnotes of his book which hasn’t even hit the shelves yet? All we know is that a reputable author who specialises in the field asserts it as fact and that high ranking US military personnel have endorsed his book. There is absolutely no reason to suspect he’s lying and fabricated the story and every reason to believe he hasn’t. You’re deliberately being an idiot.

[quote]

It’s yellow journalism on his part that happens to jive with your political predispositions. Find a legitimate AAR if you can. [/quote]

You haven’t even read his book you bullshit artist.[/quote]

Yeah, if he wrote about it, it must be true. What does he gain from lying, right? Oh I understand, I have to purchase his book first. Thanks SM!

[quote]Varqanir wrote:
That’s the cool thing about weapons: they are apolitical. A Stinger missile in the hands of an Afghan will kill a helicopter of an occupying Soviet army just as efficiently as it will a helicopter of an occupying American army, regardless of which president approves the sale.[/quote]

Actually, no.

Stingers have an IFF (identification friend or foe) system on them and cannot lock on or launch against a friendly aircraft.

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]Mufasa wrote:
Got it.

Just trying to understand the criteria for bringing our people home.

  1. Your buddies vouche for you.

Family background and personnel record?

Mufasa[/quote]

C’mon Mufasa, you’re smarter than that.

Very few people don’t think your boy should have been brought back.

It’s the price we paid, and the illegal way Obama did it.

Sure the deserter should have been brought back.

But if HE should, then 2 tour wounded vet should, too.

Especially given what he did, where he is, and how he’s been treated.[/quote]

First…he’s “not my boy”…

Second…there are PLENTY who thought he should not have been brought back, and

Third…there are a HELLUVA’ lot of people who seem to feel there are some clear “criteria” for bringing people home.

Bring them Home.

Let them face the Military Justice system if there has been wrongdoing.

Mufasa