[quote]Travacolypse wrote:
To understand this world:
1984 - George Orwell
Brave New World and Brave New World Revisited - Aldous Huxley[/quote]
That’s what I thought too.
And then I came to the conclusion that these books are vastly overrated and incredibly cynical about the human condition.
Though I have read many books none have had a profound influence on me. Poems on the other hand…
One I am sure many have read.
Thanatopsis
To him who in the love of Nature holds
Communion with her visible forms, she speaks
A various language; for his gayer hours
She has a voice of gladness, and a smile
And eloquence of beauty, and she glides
Into his darker musings, with a mild
And healing sympathy, that steals away
Their sharpness, ere he is aware. When thoughts
Of the last bitter hour come like a blight
Over thy spirit, and sad images
Of the stern agony, and shroud, and pall,
And breathless darkness, and the narrow house,
Make thee to shudder, and grow sick at heart;
Go forth, under the open sky, and list
To Nature’s teachings, while from all around
Earth and her waters, and the depths of air
Comes a still voice
Yet a few days, and thee
The all-beholding sun shall see no more
In all his course; nor yet in the cold ground,
Where thy pale form was laid, with many tears,
Nor in the embrace of ocean, shall exist
Thy image. Earth, that nourished thee, shall claim
Thy growth, to be resolved to earth again,
And, lost each human trace, surrendering up
Thine individual being, shalt thou go
To mix for ever with the elements,
To be a brother to the insensible rock
And to the sluggish clod, which the rude swain
Turns with his share, and treads upon. The oak
Shall send his roots abroad, and pierce thy mould.
Yet not to thine eternal resting-place
Shalt thou retire alone, nor couldst thou wish
Couch more magnificent. Thou shalt lie down
With patriarchs of the infant world?with kings,
The powerful of the earth the wise, the good,
Fair forms, and hoary seers of ages past,
All in one mighty sepulchre. The hills
Rock-ribbed and ancient as the sun,the vales
Stretching in pensive quietness between;
The venerable woods rivers that move
In majesty, and the complaining brooks
That make the meadows green; and, poured round all,
Old Oceans gray and melancholy waste,
Are but the solemn decorations all
Of the great tomb of man. The golden sun,
The planets, all the infinite host of heaven,
Are shining on the sad abodes of death,
Through the still lapse of ages. All that tread
The globe are but a handful to the tribes
That slumber in its bosom. Take the wings
Of morning, pierce the Barcan wilderness,
Or lose thyself in the continuous woods
Where rolls the Oregon, and hears no sound,
Save his own dashings yet the dead are there:
And millions in those solitudes, since first
The flight of years began, have laid them down
In their last sleep?the dead reign there alone.
So shalt thou rest, and what if thou withdraw
In silence from the living, and no friend
Take note of thy departure All that breathe
Will share thy destiny. The gay will laugh
When thou art gone, the solemn brood of care
Plod on, and each one as before will chase
His favorite phantom; yet all these shall leave
Their mirth and their employments, and shall come
And make their bed with thee. As the long train
Of ages glide away, the sons of men,
The youth in life’s green spring, and he who goes
In the full strength of years, matron and maid,
The speechless babe, and the gray-headed man?
Shall one by one be gathered to thy side,
By those, who in their turn shall follow them.
So live, that when thy summons comes to join
The innumerable caravan, which moves
To that mysterious realm, where each shall take
His chamber in the silent halls of death,
Thou go not, like the quarry-slave at night,
Scourged to his dungeon, but, sustained and soothed
By an unfaltering trust, approach thy grave,
Like one who wraps the drapery of his couch
About him, and lies down to pleasant dreams.
-any book by John Steinbeck
-Watchmen
-Enders Game. You don’t have to read the rest of the series, because past Speaker for the Dead and Enders Shadow, it goes a little bananas
-Dune
And for shits and giggles, I’ll throw in Flashpoint, which in the end has an important message
[quote]Nards wrote:
[quote]Alpha wrote:
“The Fountainhead” & “Atlas Shrugged” by Ayn Rand
“The War of Art” by Stephen Pressfield
“Beyond Good and Evil” by Nietzsche
Those are just a few that came to the front of my mind. I will keep adding to this list and am very interested in what other people will recommend.[/quote]
I’m not making fun but The Fountainhead along with Atlas Shrugged are two books I wish I hadn’t read in my 20s[/quote]
I am making fun: that’s a terrible book with middle school-level prose and false + reactionary philosophy (just look up Ayn Rand’s history to clarify). Same goes for Nietzsche; his philosophical institution is a waste of time. Try to stay away from postmodernists dating after Hegel.
Better books to read for the coming period:
History of the Russian Revolution by Leon Trotsky
Ludwig Feuerbach and the End of Classical German Philosohpy by Friedrich Engels
(can recommend more)
Other books:
Games People Play by Eric Berne
Sky Between the Leaves by David Walsh
Lying by Sam Harris
First things First by Steven Covey
Think and Grow Rich -Naploeon Hill
How to be the Jerk women love -FJ shark
With the Old Breed: At Peleliu and Okinawa by Eugene Sledge really puts those first world problems into perspective. It’s one of the books that HBO’s Pacific was based on.
[quote]Vampire_Savior wrote:
I am making fun: that’s a terrible book with middle school-level prose and false + reactionary philosophy (just look up Ayn Rand’s history to clarify). Same goes for Nietzsche; his philosophical institution is a waste of time. Try to stay away from postmodernists dating after Hegel.
[/quote]
Stop being such a literary elitist douche and prevent yourself and other deriving value from a book merely because it may have some flaws. I can pick holes through Rand’s self important and at-times tedious writing and circular and self serving philosophy too. But The Fountainhead is a must read during one’s teens and twenties because of what it is ABOUT - the story of a man who doesn’t slavishly follow the herd, who has his own vision and forges his own path.
Yes its characters are cartoonishly 2-dimensional, and it is overly long and self indulgent as a whole - but that is precisely why it works with the younger demographic. Nuance and detail is better appreciated when one is a little older. The message of the book, albeit presented in an extreme fashion, is a necessary one particularly for young folk finding and forging themselves and their place in this world. Of course by no means is it the ONLY book I think they should read - or else they’d come away with a very skewed (and inaccurate) picture of how things are. Read widely, but include this one.
Some of my picks at random:
. Dune. And I’m not even a sci-fi fan. Just an amazing book.
. Catch 22.
. The Little Black Book of Violence. Must read for any young man.
. Epictetus’ Discourses or Marcus Aurelius’ Meditations.
. Warrior by Geoff Thompson.
. The Power of Now.
. What They Don’t Teach You at Harvard Business School.
. Anything by Tim Winton.
. City of Joy by Dominique Lapierre.
. The Way of the Superior Man by David Deida. Wanky title, great book.
. Shogun by James Clavell.
. The Magic of Thinking Big. Simple, no nonsense ‘self help’.
. Anything by Chuck Palahniuk.
. The Stand by Stephen King.
. Gates of Fire by Steven Pressfield.
. The Last Days of Socrates.
. Thus Spake Zarathustra.
Beyond Good, and Evil, Thus Spoke Zarathustra, etc… by Nietzsche as have already been recomended.
Way back when SAMA was still a sub forum here, Angry Chicken had given a few good ones for young men in his how-to-score-chicks-by-being-a-man thread. Iron John was one of them. Important stuff.
Dostoevsky, Orwell, Ecclesiastes are the three that come to my mind instantly.
[quote]justrob wrote:
But The Fountainhead is a must read during one’s teens and twenties because of what it is ABOUT - the story of a man who doesn’t slavishly follow the herd, who has his own vision and forges his own path.
[/quote]
Off-topic, but I got to ask you a question.
What does it mean to not follow the herd?
And does the size of the herd matter?
[quote]magick wrote:
[quote]justrob wrote:
But The Fountainhead is a must read during one’s teens and twenties because of what it is ABOUT - the story of a man who doesn’t slavishly follow the herd, who has his own vision and forges his own path.
[/quote]
Off-topic, but I got to ask you a question.
What does it mean to not follow the herd?
And does the size of the herd matter?[/quote]
Not to derail this thread but to clarify, I said not to ‘slavishly’ follow the herd. Meaning unquestioningly and unthinkingly adopting the general values, beliefs and behaviours of those around you or of wider society.
Of course some sort of conformity is fine and perhaps even essential depending on what you want from life. It’s a very difficult life you’re making for yourself if you go about challenging every little thing you encounter around you - in fact being that reactionary simply for the sake of it suggests problems of another sort. That is, you need some sort of push back from the world to define yourself, which is just as unhealthy.
A strong, mature, secure individual knows exactly who he is and what he wants from life - sometimes it might be in sync with others around him, sometimes not. What is important is not ‘being different’ or not ‘fitting in’ but doing the work about who you are.
[quote]justrob wrote:
Not to derail this thread but to clarify, I said not to ‘slavishly’ follow the herd. Meaning unquestioningly and unthinkingly adopting the general values, beliefs and behaviours of those around you or of wider society.[/quote]
And how do you determine that the other fellow is “unquestioningly and unthinkingly adopting the general values, beliefs and behaviours of those around you or of wider society”?
How do you determine that you are not?
Yes, these are probably off-topic, but given that the TS wanted books that change your mind, I think talking about the mind in general is close enough.
[quote]magick wrote:
And how do you determine that the other fellow is “unquestioningly and unthinkingly adopting the general values, beliefs and behaviours of those around you or of wider society”?
How do you determine that you are not?
[/quote]
Because I have done the work and continue to do the work. Read, study, reflect, meditate, continually question what I ‘know’ to be true, consistently put myself in uncomfortable situations that reveal my fears and weaknesses. Because I have over an extended period of time (going on 20 years now) exposed myself to all manner of thoughts and beliefs (even those that I have at first blush disagreed with vehemently), and have deliberately chosen from them those thoughts and beliefs that resonate with me.
I don’t see too many around me do the same, but I could be completely wrong about that. Frankly I don’t spend much time thinking about what others do and I honestly don’t care - and I don’t mean that to come across in a tough guy, unfeeling way. Other people’s lives are theirs alone, to live as they see fit. If they wish to walk a different path, fine.
This is not a ‘holier that thou’ attitude by the way. I know some truly remarkable people, much better than me in many, many ways and who have lived ‘better’ that I have as a whole. But this is one aspect of life in which I think I have done reasonably well. And I still have a long, long way to go.
Back to The Fountainhead, one of the primary criticisms of it is that its ‘good guys’ are overwhelmingly good, its ‘bad guys’ overwhelmingly bad - and real people are and real life is obviously not that simplistic or clear cut. Howard Roark never had to ‘do the work’ that I outlined above - he was simply born in the idealised form he was. Probably a valid criticism of the book, but that bit of artistic license (for want of a better phrase) employed by Rand allowed her to illustrate her messages with greater effect IMO. Very worth a read.
Hope that answered your questions mate, but that’ll be it from me in this thread. It’s about books - and that’s what I came here to post about.
(Edited to improve clarity.)
Well, for what it’s worth, I’ll say that what you wrote there is worth more than just about any book that I can recommend for the OP, if nothing else than because of exactly what you wrote about possible criticisms regarding The Fountainhead.
=)
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Dostoevsky, Orwell, Ecclesiastes are the three that come to my mind instantly.[/quote]
Camus and Kafka.
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]smh_23 wrote:
Dostoevsky, Orwell, Ecclesiastes are the three that come to my mind instantly.[/quote]
Camus and Kafka.[/quote]
Kafka indeed!
[quote]justrob wrote:
Stop being such a literary elitist douche
[/quote]
That was uncalled for I think.
[quote]1 Man Island wrote:
I was 2 classes short of an english major, so I read a lot in college… an ungodly amount of shakespeare, so I took a break after and read the newspaper front to b ack daily, along with barron’s, and a few other magazines (money, forbes (sucks), fortune (better than expected), time, newsweek, etc.). I find the weekly news magazines even better now, because they distill all the information found out over the week into what you really need to know and go more in depth than some other sources.
Actual books I wish I had read younger:
-The Happiness Hypothesis by Haidt - puts things into perspective, based on science
-Remembrance of Things Past by Proust - honestly, the plot and all is pretty dull, but it’s written so well it doesn’t matter, but it’s not the type of book to read casually… you have to put time in and read for longer periods to get into the groove, like shakespeare
-Algebra - Not a real book, but I wish I had done something to help retain my quant skills more
-Difficult Conversations - It’s kind of a management/negotiation book, but it’s basically conflict resolution
-More fiction
Honorable mentions because I could see some people getting something out of it:
-The alchemist
-The Art of the Start
-On the Road
-Down and Out in London and Paris
-A long biography of some notorious figure (I read Stalin). I wouldn’t have it be anyone too recent, and definitely not an autobiography [/quote]
Given the job market that awaits most 20 y/o’s in this country, Down and Out in London and Paris should be required reading for ALL twenty-somethings.
Not a book recommendation per se, but with a non-nonsensical representation of gender relations in the media, I’d look into a couple of resources to understand how relationships truly are.
RSD puts some really quality videos on youtube and the book of Pook posted by Orion is insightful.
Robert E Howard. Take note of how he wrote everything before his untimely death at 22 (I think it was 22). Kull, Conan, Solomon Kane, Bran Mak Morn, and his other shorts. Genius in my opinion. How I wish he lived longer.
HP Lovecraft. I just started reading him and it’s brilliant. Again, it starts in the 1920’s, these stories must have been real shockers back then. Even now in a world rich with fantasy, sci fi, and horror, his stories are still quite vibrant.