Book: The God Delusion

[quote]John S. wrote:
Im sorry but how is believing in God any stranger then evolution? You believe there is no God but your willing to believe that BY CHANCE these micro organsims decided to get together to make us? now im not saying evolution is wrong for all i know it could be the answer to how not why. what i mean by this is that God could have willed it to be that way which is perfectly reasonable.

p.s. Im a christian with a open mind about how we were created.[/quote]

Most scientists agree that the Earth is about 6 billion years old. That is a lot of time for the random occurences required for evolution to take place. Consider how long you may live, and all the changes that occur to you and to your world, and realize that the sum total of your life experience is contained in less than 100 years. Now there is a lot of room for change within that span, but not nearly as much as there would be in a time frame 60,000,000 times that length.

Minor genetic mutations happen all the time, down syndrome is a good example. It just occurs, and if the mutation survives, it goes on to reproduce. Another mutation may occur to the previously modified organism. These accumulate over the course of 6 billiob years and eventually we reach a state at which we are now. Sure, the probability of our current experience may be relatively low, but given the extremely large amount of time for such things to happen, it did.

Thus far we have not found extra-terretrial life, for all we know we may be here alone. Life as we know it did not have to happen, but nevertheless it did. Despite all odds, we exist. To dismiss evolution simply because it seems too unlikely seems far more ridiculous than accepting the limits of our ability to understand the complete process and accept that it is simply the best explanation we currently have.

[quote]John S. wrote:
Im sorry but how is believing in God any stranger then evolution? You believe there is no God but your willing to believe that BY CHANCE these micro organsims decided to get together to make us?
[/quote]

If you think that evolution happened by CHANCE, you haven’t read very much about evolution. Pretty much every interview I’ve seen with Dawkins has the interviewer posing a question based around that misconception.

Evolution is brought about by the survival of genetic machines most suited to survival in a particular environment. As time passes, competing organisms become more and more complex, in order to compete for the right to propagate DNA. This is the polar opposite of chance, it is precise, logical progress.

[quote]jarvis wrote:
If you think that evolution happened by CHANCE, you haven’t read very much about evolution.[/quote]

Mutations happen by chance.

Evolution occurs by natural selection of the most advantageous mutations through an increased rate of reproduction. Natural selection is not a random process.

[quote]harris447 wrote:
Also check out The End of Faith and Letters to a Christian Nation, both by Sam Harris.

Excellent books full of good arguments.[/quote]

Nice, The End of Faith is a GREAT read.

[quote]wfifer wrote:
What is the purpose of something like this? Atheists will read it to have their belief (or lack thereof) reinforced; theists (however few) will read this with closed minds and have their convictions strengthened every time they scoff at an argument.

I hate the whole idea of arguing about God. Any atheist who wastes his time arguing is too dogmatic about it;
[/quote]

Dawkins’ reason is obvious and made very clearly by him. He strongly believes and presents evidence to support his belief, that religion does more harm than good, and that the benefits religion offers can be found in non-religious, more logical ways.

He states that the most dangerous part of religion is the idea of believing in something IN SPITE OF having no evidence. I tend to agree with him.

If it were completely harmless, everybody (most sane people) would be happy to just let everyone do their own thing. However Dawkins strongly believes religion is inherently harmful, so it makes a lot of sense that someone who has that conviction should act on it to do what he can. He does no physical harm to anyone. He just presents his ideas as clearly and as loudly as he can. I see no harm done.

I’m curious about the Cambrian explosion and what does the general evolution point of view do to explain it? Considering this is what the hot topic is at the moment.

Also, what about the cilia in the view of a Darwinist? I haven’t heard of or read a strong view that has been able to piece together the cilia through mutation, but rather heard arguements that it needed to be a complete machine from the begining in order to operate. Check out Biochemist Michael Behe for that one.

I just got done reading Strobel if anyone is curious. lol

Now what i mean about time bieng irrelavent is that We as Human biengs can not begin to understand a begining because if you go back to the white light something must have been there before(if you beleive there is a begining).

Now about evolution and the bible. If you look at genesis you will find how the world begin. The actuall translation shouldnt have been day but infact ages. If you look how the world was formed in the bible you can see it happens just how evolution says stuff would.(remember this was written before darwin).
What im stating here is its Quite possable evolution happend with Gods will.

I remember reading an argument concerning the evolution debate and wondered if anyone could counter or extrapolate on it:

Genetic mutations actually lead to a rejection by other members of the species. The Hopeful Monster theory has very little evidence to support it and the so called fossil records showing “evolutionary progress” actually represent separate, distinct species.

It?s an interesting subject. I always assumed evolution to be scientific fact… until I read a little bit more about the theory and found it to be as devoid of evidential support as the religious counter-views. I think we are right at the beginning of our understanding in this particular area of science.

[quote]grew7 wrote:
Alright, everything must have a beginning. Let’s go with that.

How did God begin?[/quote]

Only that which has a beginning has to have a cause.

If God has no beginning and if he has always existed as Christians believe, he needs no cause.

[quote]John S. wrote:
Im not asking you to disprove God but theres many holes in evolution.[/quote]

Name three of them.

I have no intention of joining this discussion, arguing God is the equivalent of an intellecutal cul-de-sac, I’d just like to know what a few of these “many” holes are.

[quote]John S. wrote:
Now what i mean about time bieng irrelavent is that We as Human biengs can not begin to understand a begining because if you go back to the white light something must have been there before(if you beleive there is a begining).

Now about evolution and the bible. If you look at genesis you will find how the world begin. The actuall translation shouldnt have been day but infact ages. If you look how the world was formed in the bible you can see it happens just how evolution says stuff would.(remember this was written before darwin).
What im stating here is its Quite possable evolution happend with Gods will.[/quote]

hey man, I appreciate the fact that you are defending God but I’d like to point something out to you.

I think what you are saying is that you are a theistic evolutionist.

this position sounds like a nice compromise but you have to understand the idea of macroevolution is the idea of an equation.

matter+time+selection = end result

theistic evolution is:

matter+time+selection+God = end result

really you are reducing God to a small part of an equation. in fact, if you believe the Bible to be the word of God, this view conflicts with the Bible itself.

If Adam was the first man, then there were no men before him, no mutation or selection to develop him. also the idea of death occurs after the Garden of Eden so if thousands died beforehand this also contradicts scripture.

I’m not trying to pick a fight with you, I just wanted you to understand the consequence of that position.

Could this be the thread that finally settles this debate???

Hmm, maybe not.

DB

What do you guys think of this:

THE UFO COVERUP
by
John Lear

The sun does not revolve around the earth.
The United States government has been in business with little gray
extraterrestrials for about 20 years.

The first truth state here got Giordano Bruno burned at the stake
in 1600 for daring to propose it was real. The second truth has
gotten far more people killed trying to state it publicly than
will ever be known.

But the truth must be told. The fact that the earth revolves
around the sun was successfully suppressed by the church for over
200 years. It eventually caused a major upheaval in the church,
government and thought. A realignment of social and traditional
values. That was in the 1800’s.

Now, about 400 years after the first truth was pronounced we must
again face the shocking facts. The “horrible truth” the
government has been hiding from us for over 40 years.
Unfortunately, the “horrible truth” is far more horrible than the
government has imagined.

In its effort to protect democracy our government sold us to the
aliens. And here is how it happened. But before I begin I’d like
to offer a word in the defense of those who bargained us away.
They had the best of intentions.

Germany may have recovered a flying saucer in 1939. General James
H. Doolittle went to Sweden in 1946 to investigate reports of
“ghost rockets” (UFO’s), thousands of which had been sighted over
a seven month period.

The “horrible truth” was known by only a very few persons; they
were indeed ugly little creatures, shaped like praying mantises
and were more advanced than us by perhaps a billion years. Of the
original group that were the first to learn the “horrible truth”
several committed suicide, the most prominent of which was Defense
Secretary James V. Forrestal, who jumped to his death from a 16th-
story hospital window. Secretary Forrestal’s medical records are
sealed to this day.

President Truman quickly put a lid on the secret and turned the
screws so tight that the general public still thinks that flying
saucers are a joke. Have I ever got a surprise for them.

In 1947 President Truman established a group of 12 twelve top
military and scientific personnel of their time. They were known
as MJ-12. Although the group exists today, none of the original
members are still alive. The last one to die was Gordon Gray,
former Secretary of the Army, in 1984. As each member passed
away, the group itself appointed a new member to fill the
position. There is some speculation that the group known as
MJ-12 expanded to at least several more members.

There were several more saucer crashes in the late 1940’s: one in
Roswell, Mew Mexico; one in Aztec, New Mexico; and one near
Laredo, Texas, about 30 miles inside the Mexican border.

Consider if you will the position of the United States government
at that time. They proudly thought of themselves as the most
powerful nation on earth, having recently produced the atomic
bomb, an achievement so stupendous that it would take Russia four
years to catch up and only with the help of traitors to democracy.
They had built a jet aircraft that had exceeded the speed of sound
in flight. They had built jet bombers with intercontinental range
that could carry weapons of enormous destruction. The post-war
era had brought economic prosperity and the future seemed bright.
Now imagine what it was like for those same leaders, all of whom
had witnessed the panic of Orson Welle’s radio broadcast of “The
War of the Worlds” in 1938. Thousands of Americans panicked at a
realistically presented invasion of earth by beings from another
planet. Imagine their horror as they actually viewed the dead
bodies of these frightening-looking little creatures with enormous
eyes, reptilian skin and claw-like fingers. Imagine their shock
as they attempted to determine how these strange saucers were
powered and could discover no part even remotely similar to
components they were familiar with: no cylinders and pistons, no
vacuum tubes or turbines or hydraulic actuators. It is only when
you fully understand the overwhelming helplessness the government
was faced with in the late 40’s that you can comprehend their
perceived need for a total, thorough and sweeping cover-up to
include the use of “deadly force.”

The cover-up was so successful that as late as 1985 a senior
scientist with the Jet Propulsion Laboratory, Dr. Al Hibbs, would
look at videotape of an enormous saucer and state for the record,
“I’m not going to assign anything to that (UFO) phenomena without
a lot more data.” Dr. Hibbs was looking at the naked emperor and
saying, “He certainly looks naked, but that doesn’t prove he is
naked.”

In July of 1952 a panicked government watched helplessly as
squadrons of “flying saucers” flew over Washington, D.C., and
buzzed the White House, the Capitol Building and the Pentagon. It
took all the imagination and intimidation the government could
muster to force that incident out of the memory of the public.

Thousands of sightings occurred during the Korean War and several
more saucers were retrieved by the Air Force. Some were stored at
Wright-Patterson Air Force Base, some were stored at Air Force
Bases near the location of the crash sites.

One saucer was so enormous and the logistical problems in
transportation so enormous that it was buried at the crash site
and remains there today.

The stories are legendary on transporting crashed saucers over
long distances, moving only at night, purchasing complete farms,
slashing through forests, blocking major highways, sometimes
driving two and three low-boys in tandem with an extraterrestrial
load a hundred feet in diameter.

On April 25, 1964, the first official communication between these
aliens and the U.S. government took place at Hollomon Air Force
Base in New Mexico. Three saucers landed at a pre-arranged area
and a meeting was held between the aliens and intelligence
officers of the U.S. government.

During the late 60’s or early 70’s MJ-12, representing the U.S.
government, made a deal with these creatures called EBE’s (extra-
terrestrial biological entities, named by Detley Bronk, original
MJ-12 member and sixth president of Johns Hopkins University).
The “deal” was that in exchange for “technology” that they would
provide to us we agreed to “ignore” the abductions that were going
on and suppress information on the cattle mutilations. The EBE’s
assured MJ-12 that the abductions (usually lasting about two
hours) were merely the ongoing monitoring of developing
civilizations.

In fact, the purposes for the abductions turned out to be:
(1) Insertion of a 3mm spherical device through the nasal
cavity of the abductee into the brain. The device is
used for the biological monitoring, tracking and control
of the abductee.
(2) Implementation of post-hypnotic suggestion to carry out
a specific activity during a specific time period, the
actuation of which will occur within the next two to
five years.
(3) Termination of some people so that they could function
as sources of biological materials and substances.
(4) Termination of individuals who represent a threat to the
continuation of their activity.
(5) Effect genetic engineering experiments.
(6) Impregnation of human females and early termination of
pregnancies to secure the crossbred infant.

The U.S. government was not initially aware of the far-reaching
consequences of their “deal.” They were led to believe that the
abductions were essentially benign and since they figured the
abductions would probably go on anyway whether or not they agreed,
they merely insisted that a current list of abductees be
submitted, on a periodic basis, to MJ-12 and the National Security
Council. Does this sound incredible? An actual list of abductees
sent to the National Security Council? Read on, because I have
news for you.

The EBE’s have a genetic disorder in that their digestive system
is atrophied and not functional. Some speculate that they were
involved in some type of accident or nuclear war, or that they are
possibly on the back side of an evolutionary genetic curve. In
order to sustain themselves, they use an enzyme or hormonal
secretion obtained from the tissue they extract from humans and
animals. (Note: Cows and humans are genetically similar. In the
event of a national disaster cow hemoglobin can be used by
humans.)

The secretions obtained are then mixed with hydrogen peroxide and
applied on their skin by spreading or dipping parts of their
bodies in the solution. The body absorbs the solution and then
excretes the waste back out through the skin. The cattle
mutilations, prevalent throughout the period 1973-1983 and
publicly noted through newspaper and magazine stories and a
documentary produced by Linda Howe for the Denver CBS affiliate
KMGH, were for the collection of these tissues by the aliens. The
mutilations included genitals taken, rectums cored out to the
colon, eyes, tongue and throat all surgically removed with extreme
precision. In some cases the incisions were made by cutting
between the cells, a process we are not yet capable of performing
the field. In many of the mutilations there was no blood found at
all in the carcasses, yet there was no vascular collapse of the
internal organs.

This has also been noted in human mutilations. One of the first
known mutilations was of Sgt. Jonathon P. Louette. His remains
were discovered at the White Sands Missile Test Range in 1956,
three days after an Air Force Major witnessed his abduction by a
“disk-shaped” object at 0300 while on a search for missile debris
downrange. His genitals has been removed, rectum cored out in a
surgically precise “plug” up to the colon, eyes removed and all
blood removed, again, with no vascular collapse. From some of the
evidence it is apparent that this surgery is accomplished, in most
cases, while the victim, animal or human, is still alive.

The various parts of the body are taken to various underground
laboratories, one of which is known to be near the small New
Mexico town of Dulce. This jointly occupied (CIA-alien) facility
has been described as enormous, with huge tiles that “go on
forever.” Witnesses have reported huge vats filled with an amber
liquid with parts of human bodies being stirred inside.

After the initial agreement, Groom Lake, one of this nation’s most
secret test centers, was closed for a period of about a year
sometime between 1972 and 1974, and a huge underground facility
was constructed for and with the help of the EBE’s. The
bargained-for technology was set in place but could only be
operated by the EBE’s themselves. Needless to say, the advanced
technology could not be used against the EBE’s.

During the period 1979-1983 it became increasingly obvious to
MJ-12 that things were not going as planned. It became known that
many more people (in the thousands) were being abducted than were
listed on the official abduction reports. In addition, it became
obvious that some, not all, but some of the nation’s missing
children had been used for secretions and other parts required by
the aliens.

According to some, there was an altercation between the U.S.
military and the aliens at the Dulce laboratory. A special armed
forces unit was called in to try and free a number of our people
trapped in the facility who had become aware of what was really
going on. According to one source, 66 of the soldiers were killed
in the effort.

By 1983, MJ-12 must have been in stark terror at the mistake they
had made in dealing with the EBE’s. They had subtly influenced
(through Dr. Hynek, formerly with the Blue Book project, who had
allegedly broken ties with the Air Force in the late 60’s but who
in reality continued to be their informant in his cover capacity
as Director of the Center for UFO Studies) “Close Encounters of
the Third Kind” and “E.T.” (now admitted by some members of MJ-12
to have been a “drastic mistake”) to get the public used to “odd-
looking” aliens that were compassionate, benevolent and very much
our “space brothers.” MJ-12 had, in effect, “sold” the EBE’s to
the public, and were now faced with the fact that quite the
opposite was true. In addition, a plan had been formulated in
1968 to make the public aware of the existence of aliens on earth
over the next 20 years, to be culminated with several
documentaries to be released during the 1985-1987 period. These
documentaries would explain the history and intentions of the
EBE’s. The discovery of the “Grand Deception” put the entire
plans, hopes and dreams of MJ-12 into utter confusion and panic.

Meeting at the “Country Club,” a remote lodge with private golf
course, comfortable sleeping and working quarters and its own
private airstrip built by and exclusively for the members of MJ-12,
it was a factional fight of what to do now. Part of MJ-12, which
had now become military top-heavy, wanted to confess the whole
scheme and the shambles it had become to the public, beg their
forgiveness and ask for their support. The other part (and
majority) of MJ-12 argued that there was no way they could do
that, that the situation was untenable and there was no use in
exciting the public with the “horrible truth” and that the best
plan was to continue the development of a weapon or “plan of
containment” that could be used against the EBE’s under the guise
of “SDI,” the so-called Strategic Defense Initiative, which has
nothing whatever to do with a defense for inbound Russian nuclear
missiles. In fact, the real definition of purpose for SDI reads
“the plotting, tracking and acquisition of articles in deep
space.” As these words are being written, Dr. Edward Teller,
“father” of the H-bomb is personally in the nuclear test tunnels
of the Nevada Test Site, driving his workers and associates in the
words of one, “like a man possessed.” And well he should be, for
Dr. Teller is a member of MJ-12, along with Henry Kissinger,
Admiral Bobby Inman, and General Lew Allen.

Before the “Grand Deception” was discovered, in following the plan
of metered release of information to the public, several
documentaries and videotapes were made. William Moore, a Burbank,
California-based UFO researcher who wrote “The Roswell Incident,”
a book published in 1980 that detailed the crash, recovery and
subsequent cover-up of a UFO with four alien bodies, has a
videotape of two newsmen interviewing a military officer
associated with MJ-12. This military officer answers questions
relating to the history of MJ-12 and the cover-up, the recovery of
a number of flying saucers, and the existence of a live alien (one
of three living aliens captured and designated EBE-1, EBE-2 and
EBE-3, being held in a facility designated as YY-II at Los Alamos,
New Mexico. The only other facility of this type, which is
electromagnetically secure, is at Edwards Air Force Base in
Mojave, California). The officer names names as previously
mentioned plus a few others: Harold Brown, Richard Helms, General
Vernon Walters and Dr. Theodore von Karman, as being members of
MJ-12.

The officer also relates the fact that the EBE’s claim to have
created Christ. The EBE’s have a type of recording device that
has recorded all of earth’s history and can display it in the form
of a hologram. This hologram can be filmed but because of the way
holograms work, it does not come out very clear on film or
videotape. The crucifixion of Christ on the Mount of Olives has
allegedly been put on film to show the public. The EBE’s claim to
have created Christ, which, in view of the “Grand Deception,”
could be an effort to disrupt traditional values for undetermined
reasons.

Another videotape allegedly in existence is an interview with an
EBE. Since EBE’s communicate telepathically an Air Force colonel
serves as an interpreter. Just before the recent stock market
crash, several newsmen, including Bill Moore, had been invited to
Washington, D.C., to personally film the EBE in a similar type
interview and distribute the film to the public. Apparently,
because of the market crash, it was felt that the timing was not
propitious. In any case, it certainly seems like an odd method to
inform the pubic of extraterrestrials, but it would be in keeping
with the actions of a panicked organization, who at this point
didn’t know which way to turn.

Moore is also in possession of more Aquarius documents, a few
pages of which leaked out several years ago, detailing the super-
secret NSA project which had been denied by them until just
recently. In a letter to Senator John Glenn, NSA’s Director of
Policy, Julia B. Wetzel, wrote, “Apparently there is or was an Air
Force project by that name [Aquarius] which dealt with UFO’s.
Coincidentally, there is also an NSA project by that name.” NSA’s
Project Aquarius deals specifically with “communications with
aliens.” Within the Aquarius program was Project Snowbird, a
project to test fly a recovered alien aircraft at Groome Lake,
Nevada. This project continues today at that location. In the
words of an individual who works at Groom Lake “our people are
much better at taking things apart than they are at putting them
back together.” Another saw a saucer being trucked into the
Nevada Test Site in March of 1988. Still another informant
witnessed a saucer being buried at that location during the second
week of August, 1988.

If the government felt they were being forced to acknowledge the
existence of aliens on earth because of the overwhelming evidence,
such as the Hudson Valley sightings during the past four years,
the Wytheville, Virginia, sightings in October and November of
1987, the Gulf Breeze, Florida sightings in which documentary
evidence in the form of stereoscopic photographs and videotape
were taken between November of 1987 and May of 1988, the Lake
Superior sightings of 1988 and the sightings in and around Las
Vegas, Nevada and the Nevada Test Site, and taking into
consideration the “Grand Deception” and obviously hostile intent
of the EBE’s, it might be expedient for MJ-12 to admit to the
EBE’s existence but conceal the information on the abductions and
mutilations of humans and animals.

The enormity of the problem must be driving more than a few “at
the top” to drink. But what about the rest of us? Most of those
reporting sightings are being viciously ridiculed by government-
sponsored “debunkers” like Philip Klass, former avionics editor
for “Aviation Week” and “Space Technology,” NASA scientist James
Oberg, and a host of others. When the truth does emerge, if it
ever does, how is this shabby, dishonest treatment of totally
sane, normal and patriotic citizens going to be justified?

Now you ask, “Why haven’t I heard about any of this?” Who do you
think you would hear it from? Dan Rather? Tom Brokaw? Sam
Donaldson? Wrong. These people just read the news. They don’t
find it. They have ladies that call and interview witnesses and
verify statements on stories coming over the wire. It’s not like
Dan Rather would go down to Wytheville, Virginia, and dig into why
there were 4000 reports of sightings in October and November of
1987. Better that Tom Brokaw or someone else should risk their
credibility on this type of story. Tom Brokaw? He wants Sam
Donaldson to risk his credibility. No one… but no one is going
to risk their reputation on such outlandish ideas regardless of
how many people report sightings of 900-foot objects running them
off the road. In the case of the Wytheville, Virginia, sightings,
dozens of vans with “NASA” lettered on the sides failed to
interest newsmen. And those that did ask questions were told that
NASA was doing a weather survey.

Well, then, you ask: What about out scientists… what about Carl
Sagan? Isaac Asimov? Arthur C. Clarke? Wouldn’t they have
known? If Carl Sagan knows, then he is committing a great fraud
through the solicitation of memberships in the Planetary Society
“to search for extraterrestrial intelligence.” Another charade
into which the U.S. government dumps millions of dollars every
year is the radiotelescope in Arecibo, Puerto Rico, operated by
Cornell University with, guess who, Carl Sagan. Cornell
University is ostensibly searching for signals from outer space, a
sign, maybe, that someone is out there. It’s hard to believe that
relatively intelligent astronomers like Sagan could be so stupid.

What about Isaac Asimov? Surely the most prolific science fiction
writer of all time would have guessed by now that there must be an
enormous cover-up.

One current hypothesis is that, from the available evidence, it
appears that the EBE’s are trying to regenerate their own species
at our expense. They have apparently suffered either some kind of
nuclear holocaust or they may be on the back side of a bell-shaped
evolutionary curve where in essence they are “devolving” instead
of evolving. In any case, according to reports of several
autopsies of aliens that have leaked out, the EBE’s have an
atrophied digestive system and other physical problems. This
would account for their attempts to crossbreed with us as outlined
in “Intruders” by Budd Hopkins, a detailed study of an
Indianapolis woman who, over several years, produces seven
crossbreed alien children, none of whom she was allowed to keep.
Not that she wanted to.

Whatever the answer these facts are indisputable. The extent and
number of persons reported missing every year is a closely guarded
government secret. (Since 1980, at least 20,000 children have
been reported missing each year.) Cattle mutilations (over 14,000
since 1973) are regarded officially by the government as a “hoax.”
Human abductions by aliens are officially regarded by the
government as a “hoax.” The latest polls show that 88% of all
Americans believe that intelligent life on other planets is
probable and that over 20 million Americans have seen what they
believed to be a UFO. But the U.S. government officially
dismisses “flying saucers” as a “hoax.” What do you think?

The best advice I can give you is next time you see a flying
saucer and are awed by its obvious display of technology and
gorgeous lights of pure color:

                       RUN LIKE HELL!

[quote]dollarbill44 wrote:
Could this be the thread that finally settles this debate???

Hmm, maybe not.

DB[/quote]

LMAO Best post yet.

I have never understood why people bother to debate something like this. You really cannot debate “faith”. Either you believe or you don’t. As long as you are not seeking to impose all of your beliefs and values on someone else, live and let live.

Of course, I can already see someone saying that teaching evolution forces beliefs. Me? I believe in God and evolution. Craziness!

If one hasn’t read or checked out “The God Delusion” how can we comment on it?

Is this a debate of religion having a truth to it, or Christianity specifically?

We all know there have been thousands of independent religions even many without the necessary belief in a Messiah nor specifically knowledge of an afterlife. Many of you who are arguing for what the Bible says, must at the same time realize that if this was more than 2,000 years ago you would be arguing for a different religion with a different manuscript with different higher powers, correct?

We are raised in an environment that has this present, if religion is truly true and universal wouldn’t the more remote tribes in the Amazon bow to God and Jesus also, or is it neatly written as a need for man to save his own. We can’t get around a few basic truths, the Bible was written by man just as any other piece of literature and it has been crafted over the centuries, and warped to meet the needs of the past medieval churches of Europe.

I am a bit behind but I thought I recently heard that many of the missing links in Evolution are being accounted for. I also find it a bit of an oxymoron that religious people seem to require a large amount of scientific proof for evolution, but leave it to “faith” when questioning the existence of God as written in our world religions.

As far as the existence or non-existence of God I only have one question for the atheists. Do you really believe that everything came from nothing?

[quote]Kuz wrote:
dollarbill44 wrote:
Could this be the thread that finally settles this debate???

Hmm, maybe not.

DB

LMAO Best post yet.

I have never understood why people bother to debate something like this. You really cannot debate “faith”. Either you believe or you don’t. As long as you are not seeking to impose all of your beliefs and values on someone else, live and let live.

Of course, I can already see someone saying that teaching evolution forces beliefs. Me? I believe in God and evolution. Craziness![/quote]

LOL true, but it is hard to resist, just like political or racial arguments. They are like the Energizer Bunny, they keep going and going and going.

[quote]john w wrote:
John S. wrote:
Now what i mean about time bieng irrelavent is that We as Human biengs can not begin to understand a begining because if you go back to the white light something must have been there before(if you beleive there is a begining).

Now about evolution and the bible. If you look at genesis you will find how the world begin. The actuall translation shouldnt have been day but infact ages. If you look how the world was formed in the bible you can see it happens just how evolution says stuff would.(remember this was written before darwin).
What im stating here is its Quite possable evolution happend with Gods will.

hey man, I appreciate the fact that you are defending God but I’d like to point something out to you.

I think what you are saying is that you are a theistic evolutionist.

this position sounds like a nice compromise but you have to understand the idea of macroevolution is the idea of an equation.

matter+time+selection = end result

theistic evolution is:

matter+time+selection+God = end result

really you are reducing God to a small part of an equation. in fact, if you believe the Bible to be the word of God, this view conflicts with the Bible itself.

If Adam was the first man, then there were no men before him, no mutation or selection to develop him. also the idea of death occurs after the Garden of Eden so if thousands died beforehand this also contradicts scripture.

I’m not trying to pick a fight with you, I just wanted you to understand the consequence of that position.[/quote]

as i have said many times i do not believe in evolution b/c there are too many wholes im just saying there are signs it may happen. Plus everyone who believes in God knows that how he works is through people/nature. he doesnt give flashy things and create new life forms.

Ok and your 3 wholes are…

  1. the missing link. what creater was there to bind us from the premitive human to now.

  2. The fact that evolving insists of a complete change in the animals make up. which i mean is that Evolution states horses started off as these things that were knee high at best and looked different. now there like 7 feet tall. Now if we came from monkeys simple evolution states there should be no more monkeys.

3.Evolution is to produce tougher animals into the world to survive. but if you look at it Monkeys/apes are the physicaly better species.

[quote]EmperialChina wrote:
If one hasn’t read or checked out “The God Delusion” how can we comment on it?

Is this a debate of religion having a truth to it, or Christianity specifically?

We all know there have been thousands of independent religions even many without the necessary belief in a Messiah nor specifically knowledge of an afterlife. Many of you who are arguing for what the Bible says, must at the same time realize that if this was more than 2,000 years ago you would be arguing for a different religion with a different manuscript with different higher powers, correct?

We are raised in an environment that has this present, if religion is truly true and universal wouldn’t the more remote tribes in the Amazon bow to God and Jesus also, or is it neatly written as a need for man to save his own. We can’t get around a few basic truths, the Bible was written by man just as any other piece of literature and it has been crafted over the centuries, and warped to meet the needs of the past medieval churches of Europe.

I am a bit behind but I thought I recently heard that many of the missing links in Evolution are being accounted for. I also find it a bit of an oxymoron that religious people seem to require a large amount of scientific proof for evolution, but leave it to “faith” when questioning the existence of God as written in our world religions.[/quote]

To your last bit. God is the same God in Jewish faith and christanity. the only difference is I believe Jesus is Gods son as they do not. So no i would be arguing the same way.

Well im gunna pull out of this thread. This is a endless debate where we can each throw things at eachother.(agree to disagree!) before I go I just want to let you all know you all have my utmost respect. If you would like to continue to talk to me about this please pm me.