Can do…can I move this one over to a new post or just re-post it?
Seems like I am having some side effects from Tamoxifen.
Symptoms:
Sensitive eyes, watery at times
Sore throat, coughing
Generally feeling like I am sick
I thought I may have caught a cold or the flu last week. But the longer I feel like this I tend to think it is most probably from some allergic reaction to the Nolva.
Been on for 15 days (10mg daily low dose). I have labour intensive work starting on Monday with huge weekly hours ahead for the next 11 weeks. I have to feel good, so will probably discontinue the Nolva from today.
Kinda sucks since I had a week left on 10mg and then a week of 5mg.
Has anyone had these kind of symptoms from Nolva?
I’ll go and see the doctor and ask for some blood tests. Being as it has been 2 weeks I should see some kind of results from the Nolva hopefully. Probably not the same results as after 4 weeks, thoughts?
I hope when I discontinue that things will settle down and get back to feeling better. I just have too much at stake right now with work, that I can’t afford to take any chances.
Might give clomid a try later on in say about 8 weeks.
Saw the GP in Melbourne today. Long story short he wrote down all my symptoms and made a timeline. Took all my blood work home with him to study. Tomorrow I see him. Said to stop with the tamoxifen for now. He wants to treat me and get to the bottom of this. From the sounds of it he wants to look at my immune system. He thinks he will find what is wrong, so will see. I am only here for 3 months got to try and get the most out of him.
If this fails will just go back to my own thing. Couple worrying things he said my valve on my heart is of a concern. I do have an abnormality on the valve which I have known about, blood pressure was 160/100 which is high, never that high when I self test. Maybe just being in the doctors office makes it go up.
If he is talking about my immune system Hashi’s might be playing a big part in the way I feel.
I guess I will wait and see what he comes up with. Be interesting to see what direction he takes this in.
Saw the doctor today after a follow up visit from yesterday. He ran an ECG and said everything looks okay. Gave me a referral for an ultrasound on my Thyroid and also my Spleen as he felt it might be enlarged. Had some blood work done waiting for results, prob see doctor again in 2 weeks since he is going away. Told me that I have a viral infection and gave me some antibiotics. So the Nolva was not to blame as I had initially thought. However the doctor wanted me to be off it anyway because he wants to run tests and get to the bottom of my cause. Says we have 3 months and he is confident that we will. If we don’t will just go with what I had planned.
A little disappointing that I had to cut short the Nolva experiment but no big deal in the scheme of things. Be interesting to see if after 2 weeks any changes will be present in the blood work.
Okay just got my test results back. Original doctor not in yet as away on holidays so I made an appointment with another. Just to get my results.
BTW blood draw was 1.50pm!
FSH - 5 (1-10)
LH was not checked but I imagine it would be a similar value as FSH
Total Testosterone - 20.6 (8.3-30.2)
SHBG - 33 (13-71)
Calculated Free Testosterone - 445 (225-725)
Nuclei (hep-2000 Cells) Negative
Glucose non fasting 4.5 (fasting 4.0-6.0) Random (4.0-7.8)
Ferritin - 200 (20-300)
Iron - 2.6 (2.2-3.7)
Transferrin Sat 22 (13-47)
Prolactin - 74 mIU/L (45-375)
Serum Rheumatoid Factor - 5 kIU/L (<14)
TSH - 6.41 (.5-4.0)
Ft3 - 5.8 (3.5-6.5)
Ft4 - 18 (10-19)
Anti-Thyroid Peroxidase - 115 (<60)
Anti-Thyroglobulin - 123 (<60)
Vitamin B12 - 393 (150-700)
R.C.Folate - 920 (>630)
Very interesting results!! Testosterone levels dramatic increase in Total and Free. I would say almost 100% increase. This increase was just after taking Tamoxifen for 2 weeks at 10mg daily.
This to me tells me that my gonads are able to produce when instructed and should rule out Hypogonadism.
The doctor I saw gave the usual speech have I ever been below range in testosterone and I said no. So he said you are fine. He was not very willing to listen to the fact that having a test value of 280ng/dl in my 30’s is not okay. Did not matter I was not there to really discuss my issue with him. I just went in to get my blood work.
The good thing that did come out of this doctor is he gave me a referral for an MRI to check my pituitary and a scan of my Hypothalamus. I was happy with that since I want to get my pituitary checked out since it looks like my boys are able to produce.
Thyroid has gone up again and could be making me feel like shit currently. Will talk to my normal doctor next week what he wants me to do.
I am kind of happy with the positive results of the Tamoxifen, but now a little unsure how to keep my test levels elevated or they might just drop down. I guess I will have to wait and see how the pituitary gland checks out.
He said that my prolactin levels are low and this is not associated with a pituitary problem but lets rule it out anyway.
The thyroid is a concern though. from .5 (4 months ago) to 6.4 now. Something definitely not working. He said to raise medication but will wait till I get my ultrasound on the thyroid done. Have not been able to get in the last 2 weeks, so hope this Saturday I will get in.
I have not trained in 4 weeks now. The blood test was done 3 weeks ago almost. Yesterday I went into the garage and managed to pump out 8 reps with 210lbs for a final set on bench. This for me is unheard of!! Usually when I have time off my strength declines very fast. 2 weeks off means 20% weaker! However after 4 weeks off now I am only a fraction weaker than what I was pushing when I was training consistently. I think this is directly related to testosterone levels. I did not really even feel that sore the next day or the following day after. This is definitely not normal for me and made me happy. Will be interesting to see if my Test levels stay higher now and if my LH and FSH stay mid range or will they both drop back down along with lowish testosterone.
Already I have noticed more fat build up around my stomach which could be directly related to thyroid. But my Ft3 and Ft4 numbers look good. So I am keen on seeing my Rt3 and TSI blood tests that I managed to get a referral for.
So all in all a good experiment with the tamoxifen that really told me something. Also it seems that the 40mg doses of Tamoxifen are probably not needed in PCT. Looks like the various articles that stated that they did not see any difference in higher and lower doses of Tamoxifen had some merit to it.
Any thoughts?
[quote]iroczinoz wrote:
TSH - 6.41 (.5-4.0)
Ft3 - 5.8 (3.5-6.5)
Ft4 - 18 (10-19)
[u]Anti-Thyroid Peroxidase - 115 (<60)
Anti-Thyroglobulin - 123 (<60)[/u]
The thyroid is a concern though. from .5 (4 months ago) to 6.4 now. Something definitely not working. He said to raise medication but will wait till I get my ultrasound on the thyroid done. Have not been able to get in the last 2 weeks, so hope this Saturday I will get in.
[/quote]
ummmmmmm I can’t remember and your thread is 7 pages long so I’m not going to go back through it to figure it out, but were you aware that you had Hashimoto’s before this test?
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
[quote]iroczinoz wrote:
TSH - 6.41 (.5-4.0)
Ft3 - 5.8 (3.5-6.5)
Ft4 - 18 (10-19)
[u]Anti-Thyroid Peroxidase - 115 (<60)
Anti-Thyroglobulin - 123 (<60)[/u]
The thyroid is a concern though. from .5 (4 months ago) to 6.4 now. Something definitely not working. He said to raise medication but will wait till I get my ultrasound on the thyroid done. Have not been able to get in the last 2 weeks, so hope this Saturday I will get in.
[/quote]
ummmmmmm I can’t remember and your thread is 7 pages long so I’m not going to go back through it to figure it out, but were you aware that you had Hashimoto’s before this test?
[/quote]
Yeah I knew I had it before this test. So you think it is just in full swing at the moment and causing a thunderstorm? Looks like an increase in meds is needed then. But once it calms down again I will probably be hyper. This is going to be difficult to keep stable since it just swings wildly.
The only thing that would solve the issue 100% is if i got the thyroid removed, hmmm.
Short update…
Ultrasound came back fine nothing of concern at all was found. Structure, shape, texture all normal.
TSI and RT3 tests was supposed to get results. Went in and they only tested TSH ( did not even ask for that, pro b saw TSI and thought typo). My guess is the LAB does not do these tests. Will try another lab to see if I have any luck there. But it looks like I will never know the values of these which really sucks!
2 weeks ago TSH was 6.4
Now it is 2.06
No change in medication between these 2 tests.
I have now started taking an extra 40mcg of T4 and 10mcg of T3 (130mcg T4 + 20mcg T3 total). Looks like the wave of Hashi’s might be slowing down now and my TSH is dropping. With the new dosage of medication I will no doubt drop below 0.5 I think. Only been on the increased meds for 4 days, today I felt terrible. Still need to get my MRI on the pituitary.
Frankly I have a feeling I will never ever get the conclusion I am after.
Had an MRI done on my head last week everything ok, nothing was found.
Ultrasound on upper abdomen all clear nothing out of the ordinary.
TSH antibodies or another name is TSI so I have been told by the lab. Came back < 1.0 which is negative.
It does not give me an exact number, as some say there should be none in the blood. So a reading of below 1 does not tell me this but honestly the stuff I went through to get this test, I give up on it.
rt3 still not back waiting on that.
Started taking more thyroid meds, felt crap so stopped taking the extra dosage. Will start again but will halve the extra dose and see how it goes.
Feeling lousy so it could be a combination of hashi’s and low test combined making me feel like this.
Been in the gym the last month and strength has gone down in tbat time. I was stronger 4 weeks ago when I did not even toucha weight for 4 weeks. So by training I am getting weaker which is a joke.
I figure maybe test has dropped. So I started taking clomid but not 50mg a day. Rather 12.5mg a day and will dose like this for a couple months and then taper off.
12.5mg should get the job done from what I have read. So I figure better to take less to get the same results. Also by doing this my month supply at 50mg daily will last me 4 months.
By that time I will certainly know if I feel any different for the better.
Back in Czech in about a month and a bit. Will see the sexologist who gave me the clomid and see what next.
Nuts are able to produce just the pituitary is lazy it seems so maybe the clomid will liven it back up. If that fails and I have bad sides will ask for test injections just to trial it for comparison how I feel and if there is any difference. That way I can make a judgement if my lowish T is causing me grief.
Will see if clomid helps and then go from there.
Have to see the doctor here to see what he thinks. He said he would fix me but that aint gonna happen.
Are you taking a T3 only med or a T4/T3 combo still?
If you upped t4/t3 and felt like shit, you probably don’t have the cortisol to support it.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Are you taking a T3 only med or a T4/T3 combo still?[/quote]
Still taking a combo 90mcg T4 + 10mcg T3
Doc said to start taking 130mcg T4 + 20mcg T3.
Maybe the jump was too big. So I stopped and will take 110mcg T4 with 15mcg T3.
I do have loose stools though, cough that won’t go away (2months).
Cortisol has never been an alarm bell on the blood test results. Not sure what it looks like now but the last few tests it was ok.
Why havent you tried a T3 only med to see if that helps? Since you are unable to get RT3 tested
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Why havent you tried a T3 only med to see if that helps? Since you are unable to get RT3 tested[/quote]
RT3 result should be in soon. Waiting on that before I see doctor and push for T3 only. He told me once that this is not common and they only prescribe T4. But if I get rt3 high back more ammo for me and better pushing power to get just RT3.
Even if it comes back normal, I will push for a t3 only trial. If I can’t get it here will try and get it prescribed back in Czech.
But yes this is my next plan of attack.
rt3 result is in
613 pmol/l. (140-1200)
considering my Ft3 was 5.8 pmol/l
I calculated the ratio
5.8 x 1000 = 5800 / 613
ft3/rt3 ratio = 9.46
So the recommended ratio is 20+ so I am very much under.
Would any of you recommend me push for T3 only medication?
Or dessicated Thyroid? With having more T3 than T4 in each tablet?
Thyroid boards are recommending dessicated thyroid because of the added t1 and t2.
To get rt3 down would mean t3 only. There probably is not a clear cut answer. But if I go on t3 only for now to lower rt3 and boost my ratio. After 3 months of that I don’t feel any change I can go to dessicated thyroid but this will most likely screw up my ft3/rt3 ratio again. But maybe I will feel better. Got to ask the doctor for a prescription of both and enough for a year.
Iroc,
Doing the T3 alone without testing your adrenals is not recommended if you follow the adrenal and thyroid site protocols. I will be posting an update in my own process shortly, but your ferrittin is too high, your iron too low and B12 too low. You need to test out 24 hr cortisol saliva and make sure adrenals are stable, and also build up your iron and B12 before going on t3 or you will be stressing your system out. You need to check temps and graph them.
[quote]tuscans wrote:
Iroc,
Doing the T3 alone without testing your adrenals is not recommended if you follow the adrenal and thyroid site protocols. I will be posting an update in my own process shortly, but your ferrittin is too high, your iron too low and B12 too low. You need to test out 24 hr cortisol saliva and make sure adrenals are stable, and also build up your iron and B12 before going on t3 or you will be stressing your system out. You need to check temps and graph them. [/quote]
I must admit I have never had the 24hr saliva test for cortisol. But I have had cortisol checked by blood draw probably 3-4 times now. It was not fantastic but not horrible either. I would say it was good and it did not really show any signs of an issue.
B12 could use a raise and I am waiting on my b12 sublinguals to arrive. Ferritin I thought was good, iron lower than it was last year but was told ferritin is more important as that is the one used.
Going in to see the doctor on Thursday hopefully and discuss my situation again and ask for something different.
Okay here goes time for an update.
Just received my blood results from last week.
Keep in mind this after 2 months use of Clomid at 25mg daily. I started off at 12.5mg daily but after a couple of weeks I bumped it up to 25mg.
LH - 8.6 (1.7-8.6)
E2 - 598 pmol/L (28-156)
Testosterone - 40.33 nmol/l (9.9-27.8) or 1161 ng/dl (285-800)
DHEA-S - 21.8 (2.2-15.2)
SHBG - 47.6 (14.5-48.4)
Cortisol 939 nmol/l (171-536)
Free Androgen Index 84.7% (14.8-95) This is somewhat equivalent to Free Testosterone
My thoughts after getting the results were WOW testosteorne over range only with clomid.
Nuts are producing and plenty!! The shocker is E2 sky high and if I can get that under control I think I will be where I need to be. Surprised that LH was not significantly over the limit looks like the 25mg daily dose was perfect.
I have just started taking DHEA-S again once I returned to Europe, last 4 weeks.
The doctor gave me Undestor ( Andriol) have been taking 160mg daily. But after getting back these results I don’t think I need to be taking this Testosterone Undeconate.
I am pretty happy with the results of clomid but to be honest never felt any difference but this could be masked by the very high E2. Although that statement is not entirely correct. I should say strength gains were not that noticeable but libido certainly went through the roof. I can just imagine if E2 was in check could have made a difference further. Morning wood also more prominent. Not sure if the doctor can prescribe me anastrozole or aromasin or letro. I sent her a message waiting for a reply. I might have to source it myself I think.
Was planning on running a cycle soon but will hold off until I can get E2 down and see how I feel then. Might not even need to run a cycle with having such high testosterone numbers.
I might ask for a script of clomid again and stay on it along with E2 control. Will be interesting to see what kind of a difference this will make. I have also read that maybe clomid is best cycled. Take for 3 months and then go off for a while.
What are you thoughts on this? Can you stay on clomid long term with E2 control and keep test levels high?
The cortisol has me stumped, she thinks I am stressing and suggests I try some anti depressants and see how I go. I might give them a shot.
But with cortisol so high and I have been taking melatonin nightly to aid with sleep.
If I have the correct formula my E2 = 598 * 0.272 = 162 pg/ml !! DAMN SHIT
Or better than clomid mono therapy probably best to go hcg monotherapy. She did say she could script that last time we spoke.
These numbers are crazy. At least you know you are not primary lol
If it were me, I would go on HCG mono and see how that treats me.
Your E2 is very high, and IMO your clomid dose is probably too high as well. The 12.5 mg/daily might be more manageable.
Cortisol response is interesting–maybe stressing your adrenals producing so much T with no where to go?
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
These numbers are crazy. At least you know you are not primary lol
If it were me, I would go on HCG mono and see how that treats me.
Your E2 is very high, and IMO your clomid dose is probably too high as well. The 12.5 mg/daily might be more manageable.
Cortisol response is interesting–maybe stressing your adrenals producing so much T with no where to go?[/quote]
The cortisol has me stumped also and did not expect it. Expected it to be lower if anything. Will have to look into it to get it down somehow any ideas?
The E2 is stressing me a bit have no AI on hand going to have to try and get a script tomorrow if I can. Don’t like my chances. I was actually still on clomid at the blood draw so now been off clomid for 4 days probably E2 rebounded even higher. No itchy nipples or signs. The only thing I have on hand is Nolva which will not do much. Gotta get an AI.
Yeah the numbers are crazy too bad e2 went up 5x with test going up by 4x.
Very positive with the outcome though.
Maybe ksman or hardasnails have a theory on why cortisol shot up so much.
Just found this on the net
You don’t need to take any more steps to raise cortisol at this time as the clomid should do this via increase LH leading to increased p450scc
So it just might be related to the clomid that cortisol went up. I don’t think it is stress doctor thinks it is but I don’t really get stressed.
One thing would have been interesting is if my cholesterol has gone down with this increased activity as it should break down more cholesterol to make preg.
Spoke with the doctor she can write me a script for adex but will have to pay out of pocket. Only oncologists can prescribe on insurance. So tomorrow I pick it up went for the generic brand was 30 bucks cheaper. Out of pocket expense will be 75 bucks.
will start with .5mg tomorrow and then take .25 mg e3d and in a month get some blood work done. Might be able to get in sooner but want to see what happens with my test in a month.
Aromasin was going to be too expensive 350 out of pocket.
Here are my blood test results one month after taking my last dose of clomid.
As expected both testosterone and lh took a nose dive but testosterone still right up there near top of range. It was never going to stay that high as my previous test.
The lab did not do E2 by mistake will do it now. But SHBG still looks a little higher than usual so I suspect E2 will still be a little higher than optimal but probably working its way down. So will probably still dose the adex.
I am surprised DHEA-S levels dropped off so rapidly! Makes me wonder if clomid also increases DHEA production. Because it sure looks like it.
Cortisol also dropped by a large margin and it looks like it followed Testosterone.
AST and ALT markers are quite high but I attribute that to playing tennis 2 days in a row and had some gastro issues on Thursday and Friday. Blood test was 8:30am Friday. Also trained on Thursday, so I think the markers are high just because of this.
I go and get some blood work done in 6 weeks for my endo mainly thyroid tests but she is also going to look at total test.
So will wait and see what happens till then. Did not ask for hcg at the moment as I will wait to see if the test drops off or not.
ALT - 1.73 (0.1-0.83)
AST - 1.5 (0.1-0.83)
GGT - 1.34 (0.1 - 1.77)
CHOLESTEROL - 6.1 (1.5 - 5.0)
HDL - 0.98 (1.0-1.6)
LDL - 4.67 (0.5-3.0)
VITAMIN D - 125.7 (75-200)
LH - 3.6 (1.7-8.6)
FSH - 2.9 (1.5-12.4)
PROLACTIN - 172 (1-10,000)
TESTOSTERONE - 24.73 (9.9-27.8)
DHEA-S - 3.6 (2.2-15.2)
SHBG - 37.4 (14.5-48.4)
CORTISOL - 658 (171-536)
FREE ANDROGEN INDEX - 66.1% (14.8-95)
As far as how I feel, I definitely felt the drop off in T but generally energy levels are okay. I do crash some days in the arvo but I suspect this to be hashi’s more so than a testosterone issue. Libido dropped off considerably but still okay. I guess being 1200 would answer that.
Been taking 4000 iu of vitamin d daily, also melatonin for sleep which I think has given me a significant improvement in sleep quality.
I still feel there is room for improvement maybe in my thyroid. Can’t get t3 only meds here so I am only on T4 at the moment.
My combination of t4+t3 meds I still have but apparently will become unavailable here in Czech in a couple months and only T4 will be used. Endo wants me on T4 for now to see what happens. Not exactly what I wanted but will play along for now this is a new endo.
If testostetone goes low again will probably go for HCG or maybe cycle clomid a few times along with an AI this time. Time will tell.