Wow…you are one of the only guys I’ve seen to actually benefit from a SERM restart hahah…I was getting to the point where I almost considered it a waste of time…good to see your T still that high. You may have just caught the LH at a low point, as it looks like you have plenty to produce T.
I’d get it tested again in another month to make sure things are still where they are supposed to be, and obvioulsy get the E2 checked.
Any idea why the cortisol is elevated?
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
Wow…you are one of the only guys I’ve seen to actually benefit from a SERM restart hahah…I was getting to the point where I almost considered it a waste of time…good to see your T still that high. You may have just caught the LH at a low point, as it looks like you have plenty to produce T.
I’d get it tested again in another month to make sure things are still where they are supposed to be, and obvioulsy get the E2 checked.
Any idea why the cortisol is elevated?[/quote]
Would be good if it worked but maybe too early to tell and the levels will drop off. I read on another forum some dude saying his levels slowly declined over the period of 8 months back to his low level. But at the moment it looks positive.
I think it is probably still elevated because T is elevated? When I was at 1200 cortisol was through the roof also. Now it seems to have dropped off along with T. I am not really having any sleep issues. Up an till the clomid test Cortisol was around mid range most of the time. After clomid it had a dramatic rise, I am kind of lost why it is so high.
But a post I read elsewhere kind of backs up the lab readings I have got. I did say cortisol is higher maybe because of test being higher but it would stem from the clomid use.
es p450scc catalyzes chol to preg. Increasing preg will end up with increased cortisol however preg supplementation is notoriously hit and miss. If you read chillns cortisol boost 101 he talks about he problems associated with oral preg and most on the this site has had little effect from transdermal preg. In any case, if the reason for low preg/cortisol and dhea is due to reduced p450scc then it is important to correct p450scc rather than supplement any of the lower down adrenal cascade. It is important to cholesterol levels, acth levels and your most imprtantly your bodies ability to produce adequate cortisol in response to stress or illness.
You don’t need to take any more steps to raise cortisol at this time as the clomid should do this via increase LH leading to increased p450scc. If i were you I wouldn’t take anything more until you have given the proviron and clomid enough time. Also, what doses are you taking, you should be carefull especially with the clomid as it has some side effects at high doses for long term use (eye floaters being one). If I were you I would follow Dr johns guidlines on clomid dosage which I believe was pretty low at something like 12.5 per day. 75mg per day proviron per day looks pretty high too and i think the recommended dose is nearer 25mg, so you should check this out and decide for yourself what dosage to take, please let us know as part of your updates what your dosages are. I wouldn’t want to see you do any harm to yourself so if it were me I would start low and work up i.e 12.5 clomid and 25mg proviron but like I say it’s your choice.
Rang to get my E2 value and it has not dropped as much as I would have thought.
Took 1mg the 1st 2 days and then .25mg eod.
Will probably have to increase to .25mg ed for a while.
Just took .5mg now
E2 - 418 pmol. ( 113 in US measurements)
Not experiencing any itchy nipples sure as hell not an over responder to a-dex.
I guess using the dosing formula it would work out
.87*113/22 = 4.46mg a week.
with .87mg being roughly .25mg eod how I have been dosing.
The 4.46mg is a pretty high dosage but I want to drop the e2 as fast as possible. So I figure I will take .5mg ED and in 4 weeks retest.
Was curious to find out my last blood test results from Friday. I did notice a big change over the course of the month with big energy drops, strength dropping off quite noticeably also.
Called the lab tests are done waiting for a copy from the doctor. I just asked about T and E2
Total Test - 395ng (14.15 nmol/l)
E2 - 68 ( still flagged high)
So my serm success was short lived. Test surely slowly coming down. In the last month from (24nmol to 14nmol)
Can’t believe E2 so high still. I looked at my pills and I have taken 13mg of A-Dex over the last 2 months and E2 still so high. It almost feels like the E2 is dropping with the Test and the AI had no effect in dropping it quicker. Maybe I should get my hands on some letro since that is the strongest AI and use that instead.
So this sucks.
VT what do you think about taking clomid with Aromasin long term? If I go back on clomid I need to take an AI to keep E2 in check. I might get Nolvadex instead of the clomid but clomid I get for free while nolvadex I will have to pay. I know sources out there state this is a not a good idea, I have repeated that on here to others also. It has been stated IGF1 level decline, Vision issues and that is all that comes to mind at the moment. Also the fact that no real long term study has been done. It probably is not the best idea I guess. I just liked the idea of Test in the 1200’s and trying to keep E2 in the 20-30 range with an AI.
I remember 10mg of Nolva for 2 weeks brought my levels up to 560 without much increase in E2. But maybe with a longer period of time the numbers would have started to climb.
Taking clomid/nolva keeping the pituitary alive would be the only benefit rather than just going with HCG, unless this is a benefit of no real value…
Doctor last time told me she can prescribe HCG if I want it or need it. Well might be a good chance to maybe give it a shot and see if I get the same success as with the clomid.
I could probably convince her to even give me test but with the output I am capable of might not be the smartest idea. Although getting human grade test would be great if I go ahead with that planned cycle but then again would never get enough of it anyway.
I’ll post my full labs when I get them.
If it were me, I would go on hcg before doing the SERM long term. I understand the benefits of keeping the pituitary producing, and probably a more natural approach in that regard, but I dont like its mechanisms of action for long term–that part is not at all natural IMO. Plus it seems like a pain in the ass if you end up with estrogen issues.
[quote]VTBalla34 wrote:
If it were me, I would go on hcg before doing the SERM long term. I understand the benefits of keeping the pituitary producing, and probably a more natural approach in that regard, but I dont like its mechanisms of action for long term–that part is not at all natural IMO. Plus it seems like a pain in the ass if you end up with estrogen issues.[/quote]
Yes good point on the E2 issues still trying to get that under control. I’ll try and get a script for HCG and see.
Finally got the lab numbers no LH or FSH lab stuffed up.
ALT - 1.07 (0.1-0.83)
AST - 1.01 (0.1-0.83)
GGT - 1.02 (0.1-1.77)
PSA - 0.31 (0-3.5)
E2 - 254 (28-156)
Test - 14.15 (9.9-27.79)
DHEA-S 14.5 (2.2-15.2)
SHBG 37.1 (14.5-48.4)
Cortisol 452 (171-536)
FAI 38.1% (14.8-95)
Have an appointment booked for the 3rd, will ask for HCG. The drop in performance over the last few weeks has absolutely nose dived. I was wrapped with the way I felt and my progress in the gym the last 2 months. But the last 2 weeks have been shocking, incredible how much strength/endurance has been lost.
Pitty I did not have E2 in check while testosterone was at 1200 to really see how I would have felt. I felt very good at the time I can only imagine with e2 at 30 instead of 160 I would have felt even better.
Going to order some Letro and Aromasin online as it works out a lot cheaper than buying from Pharmacy here. Especially Aromasin that costs a fortune here looking at $300 for a months supply.
Getting the E2 down from the clomid has really been a challenge and it is taking for ever. I am surprised I have not got gyno. Looking at my sisters blood results I have more Estradiol than here now after taking A-dex for 2 months.
Saw the endo finally she just did a check up and even had my testosterone measured.
Had her check my chest out to be 100% sure no gyno. I was pretty sure there was nothing to worry about just wanted to be reassured, she gave me the all clear.
TSH - 3.258 (0.2 - 4.5)
FT4 - 16.1 (9-19.05)
FT3 - 4.07 (2.6-5.7)
Testosterone - 25.71 (8.64-29)
Can’t get T4/T3 combo anymore here. Apparently the pharm company said it was not viable anymore to make it just for the Czech Republic. They were the last country in the EU allowing it and since have abolished it. So now they are going to try and get T3 into the country but until that happens only T4.
Might try and source T3 and give it a trial run. She thinks me being active I can do with more Thyroid meds so she said to increase dosage. Probably go with 150mcg T4 until I get my hands on T3.
Testosterone WAY BACK up there I was pleasantly shocked! Maybe just maybe something has happened… The previous was just a low for while and back up. Never been this high before (10 - 15 max nmol) Not sure if the A-dex is helping but I was on plenty of Adex when test came back at 14 so hard to say.
I must say on the day of the blood draw I did not feel that great, even went to bed at around midnight and got up at 6am.
Last 2 training sessions have been pretty good. Chest is still massively sore from 3 days ago.
Sweet T results!
Blood drawn last friday. Have been off everything for the last 4 weeks to see where I fall, so I did not take any DHEA, Adex.
Test results suck and I have no idea why I am having such a hard time getting E2 under control. Before the clomid use it was never a issue always around 30.
E2 - 387 pmol/L (28-156)
Testosterone - 15.2 nmol/l (9.9-27.8) or 425 ng/dl (285-800)
DHEA-S - 3.3 (2.2-15.2)
Free Androgen Index 45.2% (14.8-95)
Looks like the 2 months of clomid use really has thrown my system off. E2 at 105 pg/ml!!
So really I am actually worse off than before even starting clomid. Testosterone levels pretty much the same but E2 3x higher. I did however have some nice T results a couple of times in the high 20’s, no idea why the big fluctuations. It just looks like my body is doing what ever the $uck it pleases.
The Anastrozole I have is Pharm grade bought from pharmacy. It is a generic brand but that should not make any difference. I am not sure what kind of dosage I need to take to drop the E2 down. But it looks like I have to go high, maybe 2-3mg a week. I have no idea why I am having such high aromatization. But I know I need to hammer it down fast and hard. Been too long with high E2 basically over the last 4-5 months the lowest it has been was in the 60’s.
Should I just ask for a script of Letro? To really kill the E2? Since I am running out of A-Dex I might just get the strongest stuff possible because Anastrozole has failed me thus far.
Maybe If I get E2 to 20 it might have a big effect on my testosterone numbers. Planning on putting in an order for some stuff so I might also get some Aromasin and try that as well.
Interesting how my DHEA-S follows Testosterone. But the real mystery is why was DHEA-S so high after clomid use. It almost looks like higher testosterone = higher DHEA-S but not the other way around.
Doctor thinks that a testosterone value of 425 is okay well don’t really agree and I sent her my symptoms before I knew the results so she knows I am not just judging this by values I get. My major symptoms are afternoon tiredness, very poor workout recovery usually 3+ days. Lately been having a hard time falling asleep and waking up during the night, melatonin must have stopped working. She is easy to talk to, so if I am not happy with 425 I think she will work with me.
I think she would give me HCG but I want to see if I get E2 to 20 - 30 to see what happens. Because If I start HCG I can see how my E2 is going to skyrocket if it is sky rocketing now.
Brother VT what do you think?
I would definitely try to address that E2, but it is becomming more difficult to you it appears. Letro my be in order, but I really have no experience at all with it so I can’t provide a good recommendation there. It certainly doesn’t appear that the adex was doing you any favors in your previous labwork though.
You are also converting T to E2 at a high rate, or your body is not clearing E2 properly through the liver. I don’t have an answer for that, but you may want to investigate it if you don’t go the Letro route.
Thanks for the quick reply. I think I will try the letro. Will look into the liver but damn what could have happened. Liver tests were okay most of the time once elevated due to having the runs I think. Ultrasounds also were all clear.
I wonder If I get it down with letro if it will rise back up once off it. I hope not, but it does not look promising.
Also just read that estradiol competes with thyroid hormones at the receptor level.
PM’s not working? I have been unable to send a PM for a month? Just emptied out my sent box and no help.
anyway short update.
After a month of adex .5mg daily
Testosterone - 13.72 (9.9-27.9)
E2 - 170 (28-156). Which is 45 pg/ml
Shbg - 34.8 (14.5-48)
Alt - 1.16 (.1-.83)
Ast - .67 (.1-.83)
Ggt - .91 (.1-1.77)
Psa - .42 (0-3.5)
Dhea-s - 3.5 (2.2-15.2)
Progesterone - 1.0 (.7-4.3)
FAI - 39.4 (14.8-95%)
Adex did nothing to raise testosterone. Even at such a high dose it did not tank my e2 but it did bring it down considerably still not where it needs to be.
Doctor was not willing to prescribe letro before this result so I think she will be now with prescribing letro. Would rather take aromasin but that is double the cost not going to bother.
She will also be willing to prescribe hcg for my low test and along with letro I should manage to keep e2 at bay hopefully. Not sure at what dosage though 1/4 tablet daily along with 200 iu hcg 3x weekly?
Would rather try hcg monotherapy since my boys are able to produce going by the clomid challenge test where test went 150% over top range. I guess I will see if e2 will be a problem or not.