Black Teen Shot by Neighborhood Watch

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Once again, these aren’t conclusions I’ve come to lightly. You aren’t going to come up with a possible “out” that I haven’t already considered and looked into myself. If you can, fantastic, but don’t hold your breath. [/quote]

You didn’t come to a real conclusion at all. Reaching a conclusion implies that you actually understand how the information that you used to come to a conclusion was obtained, and you clearly have very little understanding of statistics. Definitely not enough to understand when a statistical analysis is useful and when it is not. You just looked at some numbers posted on a website or in a journal/magazine and assumed they were accurate and valid to the “conclusion” you came to.

Again, your “conclusion” was something along the lines of “This statistic says that 52% of convicted murderers are black, therefore 52% of all murders are committed by black people.” If any of my students, even freshman, came to a similar conclusion in any of my classes, they would fail. One of the first things taught in any intro to statistics class is that a statistical analysis is only useful if the parameters are met. This statistical analysis was conducted under the restraint that it was only conducted on convicted murderers. That means that it is only applicable for convicted murderers. It has ZERO applicability outside of that constraint due to the unknowns.[/quote]

I had a good chuckle at this after posting my last response to you. [/quote]

That’s good because there are likely a lot of people laughing at you right now for not understanding what has been explained to you about 10 times in this thread.

Just a heads up…the way you think you are coming across right now is all in your head alone.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

You are far too wound up to have a real discussion about this. Take a breather. I’m not trying to attack you and I’m not trying to say that you, personally, are limited by the tendencies of your race.

I’m not the mindless bigot you think I am and I will hear you out if you have legitimate criticism of the information I’m presenting. [/quote]

Far too wound up? ROFL!! Knowing how vile I can be, had I been angry, my first replies to your crapola would have been totally different. I kept it civil. I laughed so hard at the level of ignorance in your garbage that people around me looked at me as if I was some kind of crazy woman. What was even more farcical was that you don’t even live in America and that you’re not even an American. Probably live in a country with a low rate of minority too.

I asked you for proof that rich black peeps are as violent and criminal as the poor black people since you refuted the socio-economic factors and place the blame on the race, the ‘‘Black gene’’. LMFAO!! Damn, man!

Honestly, I don’t need to have a discussion with someone with KKK tendecies. Free yourself from the sheltered existence you seem to have and spend more time with blacks or other cultures instead on relying on ‘‘stats’’ to judge a whole race.

No wonder why with people condoning such thoughts/beliefs/ ideas/ stereotypes like yours, we end up having innocent black kids dead, with a bag of skittles and ice tea in their pockets.

[quote]Professor X wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

Once again, these aren’t conclusions I’ve come to lightly. You aren’t going to come up with a possible “out” that I haven’t already considered and looked into myself. If you can, fantastic, but don’t hold your breath. [/quote]

You didn’t come to a real conclusion at all. Reaching a conclusion implies that you actually understand how the information that you used to come to a conclusion was obtained, and you clearly have very little understanding of statistics. Definitely not enough to understand when a statistical analysis is useful and when it is not. You just looked at some numbers posted on a website or in a journal/magazine and assumed they were accurate and valid to the “conclusion” you came to.

Again, your “conclusion” was something along the lines of “This statistic says that 52% of convicted murderers are black, therefore 52% of all murders are committed by black people.” If any of my students, even freshman, came to a similar conclusion in any of my classes, they would fail. One of the first things taught in any intro to statistics class is that a statistical analysis is only useful if the parameters are met. This statistical analysis was conducted under the restraint that it was only conducted on convicted murderers. That means that it is only applicable for convicted murderers. It has ZERO applicability outside of that constraint due to the unknowns.[/quote]

I had a good chuckle at this after posting my last response to you. [/quote]

That’s good because there are likely a lot of people laughing at you right now for not understanding what has been explained to you about 10 times in this thread.

Just a heads up…the way you think you are coming across right now is all in your head alone.[/quote]

You know what? I showed his posts to a few friends, all from different background and races, and I can’t describe the level of hilarity that ensued. A couple of them shook their head in sadness though. ‘‘People still think like this?’’ was mainly the question.

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]TigerTime wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

[quote]therajraj wrote:
I’m very skeptical of the idea that blacks are genetically predisposed to commit more crimes than other races. I would like to look at how the data was collected. At the same time it would be wrong to rule out a possibility because it makes us feel uncomfortable. We want the RIGHT answer, not the one that makes us feel the most comfortable.

One thing I have noticed though is that there are a lot of parallels you can draw between the Aboriginal community of Canada and the black community in the US. They both are more likely to commit violent crimes disproportionate to their representation in the population, both more likely to be imprisoned and both more likely to be raised in single parent households. A long list of other stuff, but you guys get the idea.

The reason I have connected them is that they both have a long history of mistreatment in society by the social majority. Would it be possible that this mistreatment has effected their culture and values that still play a role today?

Not claiming to be an expert on this topic, just a thought.

[/quote]
What aboriginal tribes recently discovered and still living in the stone age?

I do find it interesting that through out history, certain regions grew, prospered, developed technology and then of course dominated regions still throwing stones and using sticks for self defense.

Take the middle east for example, obviously a pioneer in science, math, culture et cetera and bordering Asia, Europe and Africa.

Look at the technological advances of European and Asian countries at any point in history compared to Africa.

I realize I’ll probably get crucified for this musing, but it’s interesting when viewed objectively.

Societal support is helpful of course, take a tribesman and throw him in modern society and he will adapt to the best of his abilities but, as a whole, why did one region lag so far behind?[/quote]

The most common theory is that moving out of Africa meant food would be harder to find and it would take more intelligence in order to cultivate a sustainable tribe. As it happens, the gap necessary to survive in the frigid climate of ancient Europe also gave rise to the intelligence levels necessary to build western civilization to what it is today.

Something along those lines. [/quote]

???Unless you are talking about the Middle East I’m not sure what part of Ancient Western Europe was any more advanced than any place else.

Wow.

Ok on this note I am out. hahahaha wow.[/quote]

? I’m talking about why all non-African societies continued advancing while Africa stayed relatively stagnant. In the case of Europe, this is why. [/quote]

In the case of Europe you had a culture that viewed the world in a very unique way, meaning, the world had fixed rules that could be understood by the human mind. The belief in the power of reason, that is neither intuitively true nor the norm (well, now it is, kind off) was propagated by the Greeks, carried on by the Romans and reinforced by a Judeo Christian tradition that had the idea that the Lord has set up a world of fixed rules from the get go.

Add to that that Europe is relatively small and all the crops and animals that were domesticated in the Middle East could relatively easily adapted to European conditions due to its East West axis and the general shape that forced relentless competition on the European people and you had quite a few advantages that added up.

Now you could propose that longer exposure to culture leads to higher IQs, but that still would not mean that lower IQa necessarily lead to more crime.

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
The whole zim tape:

Now more information is coming out it is becoming a little bit clearer what happened. One thing I noticed is when the 911 operator asked Zimmerman if he was following Martin and Zimmerman answered yes, all the operator said is “you don’t need to do that”. That does not sound like an implicit command not to follow Martin. So the stand your ground law that the police released a copy of to the press probably does apply to protect Zimmerman.

The other thing I noticed is from what Zimmerman said it sounds like he was apprehensive of Martin. He said Martin was clutching at his waistband of his pants. Now we only have Zimmerman’s word for it, whatever that is worth. However the self defense laws do have to take into account what Zimmerman said his perceived level of threat was at that time.

That tape does make it a little clearer why there has been no charges so far. What I would like to find out next is how Zimmerman says the fight started and how it progressed. [/quote]

He was apprehensive of Martin?

So he chased the kid AFTER the kid walked to the car to see why a guy was following him got scared and RAN (ZIMM’s own words). He was so apprehensive of Martin that at some point he left his car to approach the KID.

This is A HUNT!

Oh and can someone tell me what is touching or clutching your waist band? Is this code for something or should I not tug at my pants while I walk?

Guys this is just to thin. Really. It’s guys like this that make it hard for people like me a CCW permit gun collector who does carry.

He hunted a kid knowing he could kill the kid. He put himself in harms way.

And don’t get me wrong I don’t think Zimmerman will see one second of jail time. [/quote]

Apprehensive meaning Zimmerman didn’t know Martin, didn’t know what he was up to and there were aspects of Martin’s body language that raised his suspicion level. Like clutching at his waist band. If you don’t understand how that can look very suspicious it is probably going to be pointless to try and explain it to you but I’ll try.

I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood”

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

[quote]four60 wrote:
The whole zim tape:

Now more information is coming out it is becoming a little bit clearer what happened. One thing I noticed is when the 911 operator asked Zimmerman if he was following Martin and Zimmerman answered yes, all the operator said is “you don’t need to do that”. That does not sound like an implicit command not to follow Martin. So the stand your ground law that the police released a copy of to the press probably does apply to protect Zimmerman.

The other thing I noticed is from what Zimmerman said it sounds like he was apprehensive of Martin. He said Martin was clutching at his waistband of his pants. Now we only have Zimmerman’s word for it, whatever that is worth. However the self defense laws do have to take into account what Zimmerman said his perceived level of threat was at that time.

That tape does make it a little clearer why there has been no charges so far. What I would like to find out next is how Zimmerman says the fight started and how it progressed. [/quote]

He was apprehensive of Martin?

So he chased the kid AFTER the kid walked to the car to see why a guy was following him got scared and RAN (ZIMM’s own words). He was so apprehensive of Martin that at some point he left his car to approach the KID.

This is A HUNT!

Oh and can someone tell me what is touching or clutching your waist band? Is this code for something or should I not tug at my pants while I walk?

Guys this is just to thin. Really. It’s guys like this that make it hard for people like me a CCW permit gun collector who does carry.

He hunted a kid knowing he could kill the kid. He put himself in harms way.

And don’t get me wrong I don’t think Zimmerman will see one second of jail time. [/quote]

Apprehensive meaning Zimmerman didn’t know Martin, didn’t know what he was up to and there were aspects of Martin’s body language that raised his suspicion level. Like clutching at his waist band. If you don’t understand how that can look very suspicious it is probably going to be pointless to try and explain it to you but I’ll try.

I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood”

No, its not that I don’t understand what Zimmerman was looking for its that Zimmerman seen it in places even though it was not present.

We use to call it Situational Awareness in my old job. Its strange that wearing a Hooded sweat shirt in the rain and walking is considered a crimminal Modus Operandi.

Let us not forget the kid was found with candy and Ice Tea not a gun in his waist.

^ Sorry Sifu,
It seems the quote button does not want to work with this conversation. Both our text seem to blend so I’ll just place it here.

No, its not that I don’t understand what Zimmerman was looking for its that Zimmerman seen it in places even though it was not present.

We use to call it Situational Awareness in my old job. Its strange that wearing a Hooded sweat shirt in the rain and walking is considered a crimminal Modus Operandi.

Let us not forget the kid was found with candy and Ice Tea not a gun in his waist.

[quote]sifu wrote:
I’m guessing that you have never seen this behavior where you live, but if you have ever been to Miami it is something you see. It is part of the Miami “I’m so hood” dress code and is related to the pants down around your ass, fashion statement. To do it properly you don’t just hold onto your waistband or put your hand at your waist. They grab up their pants in such a way that it looks like they are carrying something and are using their pants to conceal it. Then there is the slouch and walk that goes with it that makes it look like there is something in their pants making it difficult to walk normal. The look is meant to give the impression that they are carrying a gun because that is what it looks like. Or as the man says at 3:38 of this I’m so hood video “pants hanging off me now cuz my pistol heavy, I’m so hood” [/quote]

The thing is, we have that in Houston as well and I don’t see “thug with potential gun” when I see it because the style is too widespread and that is NOT what most of the people with their pants sagging are doing.

That means if you attach a blatantly criminal act directly to a style, you would have to be blind to not see the mistakes that could lead to.

This kid had a bunch of store bought goods…IN THE RAIN…he was trying to keep dry. That would make anyone’s pants sag because Arizona Iced tea is pretty heavy.

That means if you see “black man with pants sagging” and immediately think “thug with gun”, you are making the same mistakes as any racist would whether you call yourself one or not. Your limited exposure to that style or the people who use it has led you to purely negative conclusions based on it that you can’t see past.

I see the same guy and none of the same thoughts enter my mind because I grew up around that culture and I’m not afraid of every black person I see who isn’t dressed like Bryant Gumble.

I always thought the pants hanging was an imitation of prison issue clothing…

I think Zimmerman was off his rocker when he crossed the line - followed - pulled his weapon - and shot this kid. Look at the size of Zimmerman - look the size of this yound man. Arrest this man - manslaughter.

[quote]nunhgrader wrote:
I always thought the pants hanging was an imitation of prison issue clothing…

[/quote]

Man, Jodeci was sagging back in the 90’s. It has always been some level of a style in the black community FOR KIDS and now for mostly people under the age of 25…for at least the last 25 years. I don’t know too many people over the age of 25 dressing like that unless they are rappers themselves or don’t have jobs.

That is why when people use this as some sort of “sign of danger” they are off their rockers…not to mention the shit this kid had in his pants which was at least over a pound in weight.

Moral of the story?

Stereotypes that throw purely negative connotations to cultural styles or mannerisms is a form of racism/culturalism.

Most of the people with pants sagging are NOT carrying guns so acting like this kid’s pants made him a true threat is ridiculous.


Jodeci 1993.

Gee, so let me get this straight…a style that has been here since the early 90’s STILL has a purely negative connotation to anyone in the country?

How is that possible?

First of all, I don’t know why I’m posting on page 20 of this thread, but here goes: First of all, gated communities are pieces of shit. Most of the people who live in them are pieces of shit. Wanna-be elitist scumbags. I live in south Florida, and there’s a place called Weston here. It’s a city comprised solely of gated communities. All I can say is if you’ve ever seen the 80’s movie ‘they live’ with Rowdy Roddy Piper, the poeple in Weston are like the selfish, greedy, evil, digusting aliens that were the antagonists in that movie.

Most of these people are south american drug traffickers, deadbeat dads hiding in their austentacious homes with their bimbo mail-order brides, and people competing with their neighbors for the fanciest car. Not to mention busy-bodies who watch their neighbors every move like voyeurs with nothing better to do.

[quote]benchaffleck wrote:
First of all, I don’t know why I’m posting on page 20 of this thread, but here goes: First of all, gated communities are pieces of shit. [/quote]

I guess. But then again, many people have legitimate security concerns. I’ve had many unfortunate incidents in my life out in public simply because I am a visibly Jewish person. As a result, I tend to favor gated communities or Hasdic neighborhoods with very, very active (and armed) community police/watch.

Note: this is not a comment on this shooter. He looks like a loose cannon.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Jodeci 1993.

Gee, so let me get this straight…a style that has been here since the early 90’s STILL has a purely negative connotation to anyone in the country?

How is that possible?[/quote]

The reasons may vary, but I’m willing to bet it’s because white people WANT to find a reason to dis what they don’t understand about blacks. When whitey internalizes their racist tendencies, it’s easy to find fault with things blacks do, or the music they listen to, or the way they dress.

Subsequently their actions become suspect as well, in the minds of the whites. And as I have posted earlier in this thread, history shows time and again that prejudice often drums up false infractions so that “justice” can be carried out via vigilantism.

The lynchings in America are proof of this.
And that’s exactly what this case is - a lynching. It displays all the signs up to the killing, and the killer walks free.

New article on MSN has the phone conversation Trayvon was having when he spotted Zimmerman, when he ran from him and the early part of their confrontation. Trayvon said, “What, are you following me for?”

NEW INFO:

Just heard the news… new info coming in:

Trayvon was on his cellphone talking to his girlfriend as he walked home from the store with his candy when Zimmerman went after him. The girlfriend heard him ask Zimmerman, “Why are you following me?”

Google it. It’s all there, the entire conversation.

I hope this Zimmerman creep goes down hard.

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Jodeci 1993.

Gee, so let me get this straight…a style that has been here since the early 90’s STILL has a purely negative connotation to anyone in the country?

How is that possible?[/quote]

The guys (and gals) that dress like that cannot be all that threatening. There is no way to run in saggy pants. It’s a short sprint to safety.

[quote]Tex Ag wrote:
New article on MSN has the phone conversation Trayvon was having when he spotted Zimmerman, when he ran from him and the early part of their confrontation. Trayvon said, “What, are you following me for?”[/quote]

I wonder why none of the earlier articles mentioned anything about him being on the phone? That seems like something Zimmerman should have mentioned when he told the police what happened. I couldn’t find the recording, but if the conversation went like the article I read, it is pretty damning for Zimmerman.

He didn’t identify himself as the neighborhood watch captain and didn’t tell the kid why he was following him, which he should not have been doing anyway, and his actions/words could have been seen as threatening. There should be enough there to at least arrest the man now.

You know what the really sad part is? All this guy had to was either A: leave the kid alone and wait for the cops to arrive. Or B: say “I’m the neighborhood watch captain. I haven’t seen you around before, do you live in this neighborhood?” and the kid would probably still be alive.

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:
NEW INFO:

Just heard the news… new info coming in:

Trayvon was on his cellphone talking to his girlfriend as he walked home from the store with his candy when Zimmerman went after him. The girlfriend heard him ask Zimmerman, “Why are you following me?”

Google it. It’s all there, the entire conversation.

I hope this Zimmerman creep goes down hard.[/quote]

We can only hope.

I read the conversation. Very sad.

Trayvon only put his hoodie on AFTER he realised he was being followed. He wouldn’t even run when pressed on by his girlfriend. And when he did… ah well… the kid was scared. He thought HIS life was in danger. Someone he didn’t know watched, followed and chased him. As 460 said, this was a HUNT.

Zimmercunt stated that it was him calling for help but Mrs Martin told the media she’d recognized her son’s scream for help. And you can tell from 911 tapes that it’s a young man shouting. Zimmercunt’s voice is deeper. Fucking liar.

Nah, this had NOTHING to do with color, racial bias or profiling. Not a single thing.