Black Teen Shot 2

[quote]Hell-Billy wrote:
I wonder if this would be national news if the story was Hispanic man shoots black teen.

I wonder how the public perception of the story would be with more recent pics of the parties involved.
[/quote]

In the interest of discussing this case in good faith, the picture on the right is not Trayvon Martin.

With that said, I agree with the sentiment. In addition to getting suspended for marijuana, Trayvon was suspended back in October for graffiti. When the school’s police officer searched his bag, he found a screwdriver which he described as a “burglary tool” along with a dozen pieces of women’s jewelry and a watch.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

[quote]Iron Dwarf wrote:

[quote]overstand wrote:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2012/03/26/national/a142150D15.DTL

Trayvon Martin’s mother seeks to profit from her son’s death.[/quote]

I didn’t read anything that said that.

Have you any idea another reason one might trademark something?

So OTHERS don’t profit from it.
[/quote]

lol right. If you’re interested, I have a really nice bridge for sale.

[quote]Hell-Billy wrote:
I wonder if this would be national news if the story was Hispanic man shoots black teen.

I wonder how the public perception of the story would be with more recent pics of the parties involved.
[/quote]

That kid is not Trayvon Martin. ‘‘Hispanic’’ is not a race. Zimmerman is white.

And how many 17 years old you see doing shitty poses in their facebook, uh? Black, whites, aliens… all of them have always have a goofy or gangsta pose somewhere.

So Trayvon was suspended for possessing a bag with residue of Mary in it, so what? Is that proof enough that he was a drug dealer? So his murder on a night he was doing nothing illegal is now justified.

Fucking Great.

Trayvon asked Zimmerman if he had a problem. Zimmerman said no and reached for his cell phone, he told police.
Trayvon then said, “Well, you do now” or something similar and punched Zimmerman in the nose.

‘‘Something similar?’’ LMFAO! So it’s no longer Zimms getting jumped on as he walked back to this truck?? Get your fact straight, Zimmerfuck! One, month for that fat bastard to sit down with the Sanford police and concoct this pile of shit? Anything to protect the son of the judge uh?

-The police failed to take pictures of bruises, deep cuts and broken nose. You know, the ones they would have had tagged and bagged in order for the DA to determine how to proceed with this case and what level of charges to bring? Damn, I would certainly want that shit documented if I had just shot someone in “self-defense”.

-The call with Martin’s girlfriend came in at 7:12 and ended four minutes later around 7:16. By 7:17 the cops were there flashing their lights on Trayvons bloody body. 7.30, Trayvon was dead after failed cpr attempts. So that girl’s been lying all this time about Trayvon mentioning someone following him and chasing after him?

-Zimmercunt just so happened to be in the area where Trayvon was headed even though at one point he claims to have lost sight of Trayvon around the club house. Inconsistent!

-Zimms had left his truck so he could check the name of the street he was on. Damn, for an obsessed paranoid fucker who constatntly patrolled the small gated community, he suddenly had no idea where he was?? The guy was calm and collected in those 911 tapes. So calm that memory loss was not an option.

-Zimms said in his 911 phone call that Trayvon ran away at one point heading towards the back entrance of the complex and Zimmfuck DECLINED to give the police dispatcher his coordinates. And LEFT his truck. Then, out of nowhere, he IS LOST and returned to his truck, and as he looked at a street sign, unaware that Trayvon has followed him, he is then attacked by the boy??? Wow. Funny how all of this happened yards away from Trayvon’s destination.

-Funny, the neighbor, Mary Cutcher, was on Anderson Cooper last week and refuted the story the police is now reporting. She recalled seeing Zimms straddling over the boy’s body before calling 911. She recalled the police ‘‘correcting’’ her statement and siding with Zimms. That’s called ‘‘leading’’ the witness. She demanded that the police retract the incorrect statement they said she she gave on the night of Martin’s death. So now, her story doesnt even count. It’s now, strangely been replaced by a 13 years old’s account of seeing Martin on top of Zimms and pummelling him. Coolio.

-Yeap, a kid who was about 100 pounds lighter than his killer managed to propel him to the ground with a single blow to the face, a la ninja, and stayed on top of him and over power him. Totally believable, coming from a guy who has previous assault charges. LMFAO!!

The whole case reaks of horse shit.

  • Zimmfuck was never taken by the police to the emergency room of the hospital for an investigation into his possible defensive injuries; that would have been a good idea anyway to look after his poor broken nose and clean up the blood all over him due to the beating administered by the candy-toting teen.

-His gun was not taken into the forensic lab to see if Trayvon’s prints were on it as he attempted to wrestle it away from Zimmerman in order to shoot him.

-Trayvon’s phone was never sent to the forensic lab to see if there was any off his murderer’s blood on it.

-They let that bastard go instead of taking him to the police station to make a complete, written statement that could be gone over carefully and helped to reach the conclusion that that crime actually was an attack upon him by an unarmed 17 high school student.

-Zimmercunt was never given psychological tests to show that he was the kind of overanxious, easily terrified person who feared for his life because an unknown kid in a hoodie was walking around in a town that did not have a curfew.

-Oh he did not mention that he felt afraid in his call to the police. Also, when they said the squad car was coming to him, he DECLINED to tell them where he was, and said only that once they arrived, they should call him and he would THEN tell him where he was. In other words, the asshole wasn’t exactly cowering in his car trying to control his justifiable terror; he was planning a change in geographical location because the fucking g***n was ‘‘getting away.’’

RIP Trayvon Martin. The system has fucking failed you.

[quote]overstand wrote:

[quote]Hell-Billy wrote:
I wonder if this would be national news if the story was Hispanic man shoots black teen.

I wonder how the public perception of the story would be with more recent pics of the parties involved.
[/quote]

In the interest of discussing this case in good faith, the picture on the right is not Trayvon Martin.

With that said, I agree with the sentiment. In addition to getting suspended for marijuana, Trayvon was suspended back in October for graffiti. When the school’s police officer searched his bag, he found a screwdriver which he described as a “burglary tool” along with a dozen pieces of women’s jewelry and a watch.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

[/quote]
The thing is that it is irrelevant in this situation because, if true even , Zimmerman did not know so he couldn’t base his “suspicion” upon it. Also, if Trayvon’s past is somehow relevant to some then Zimmerman’s past should be as well and what we know so far paints him as a violent individual who has even been violent with the police.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]overstand wrote:

[quote]Hell-Billy wrote:
I wonder if this would be national news if the story was Hispanic man shoots black teen.

I wonder how the public perception of the story would be with more recent pics of the parties involved.
[/quote]

In the interest of discussing this case in good faith, the picture on the right is not Trayvon Martin.

With that said, I agree with the sentiment. In addition to getting suspended for marijuana, Trayvon was suspended back in October for graffiti. When the school’s police officer searched his bag, he found a screwdriver which he described as a “burglary tool” along with a dozen pieces of women’s jewelry and a watch.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

[/quote]
The thing is that it is irrelevant in this situation because, if true even , Zimmerman did not know so he couldn’t base his “suspicion” upon it. Also, if Trayvon’s past is somehow relevant to some then Zimmerman’s past should be as well and what we know so far paints him as a violent individual who has even been violent with the police. [/quote]
Way to flip an earlier comment of mine but yes, action begets action to keep public opinion from completely boiling over in frenzy of literal ignorance.

It is unfortunate the Martin camp initiated the character assassination media frenzy. Kinda stupid too when you think about it.

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

As discussed, following someone is not illegal, neither is asking a question. Attacking most certainly is. Lets keep the circular reasoning and broken record conjecture to a minimum.

[/quote]

Not necessarily true. There is something known as menacing, and it is illegal. [/quote]

FS 784.011 - Assault

(1) An �¢??assault�¢?? is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.

This is the Florida law which defines assault. The argument could be made that by following Trayvon, there could have been a well-founded fear that violence is imminent. If the evidence winds up agreeing with Zimmerman’s story, however, the fact that he was no longer following Trayvon and had lost sight of the kid would mean that the threat had passed and Trayvon would no longer have had a real reason to confront Zimmerman and assault him, which means no murder/manslaughter charges.

By confronting Zimmerman, he would have willingly placed himself in harms way. If Zimmerman did run him down (I find this unlikely since Zimmerman looks like Jabba the Hut’s younger brother and Trayvon appears to be in good shape.) then it doesn’t really matter who started the fight since Trayvon would have been well within his rights to respond to the threat that Zimmerman represented and Zimmerman will face at the very least manslaughter charges. I think, though, that there is at least enough evidence to make a case against Zimmerman for assault no matter what. I know that if some stranger is following me, I am going to assume he means to harm me in some way.[/quote]

This seems like a very conceivable way it played out. The problem for Trayvon, if this is what indeed happened, is that once Zimmerman was walking away, as stated above, he no longer posed a threat. We have to remember that we are dealing with a boy however and unfortunately, and we were all young once so we know, kids don’t always use proper judgment.

This gets back to my issue with Zimmerman: he did not behave properly in the first place and set the wheel in motion. He is not a cop. The cops told him to stop following the kid. He had a gun. He should have looked at the big picture and understood the possible consequences of his actions. You carry a gun, you have to understand that you may end up using it.

Why press your luck? Why create a situation in which you might use it? Carrying a gun should make you more cautious, more careful, not more reckless or bold. If being an idiot with a hero complex who exercises bad judgment (and racially profiles) is a crime then Zimmerman should be charged with it.

To all of those who say Zimmerman (or anyone) has the right to follow someone: did you ever think that Zimmerman following someone who was, in his mind, suspicious, was seen by Trayvon as suspicious? What seed did that plant in his 17 year old mind? He probably thought Zimmerman was a perv.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]Dr.Matt581 wrote:

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:

As discussed, following someone is not illegal, neither is asking a question. Attacking most certainly is. Lets keep the circular reasoning and broken record conjecture to a minimum.

[/quote]

Not necessarily true. There is something known as menacing, and it is illegal. [/quote]

FS 784.011 - Assault

(1) An �?�¢??assault�?�¢?? is an intentional, unlawful threat by word or act to do violence to the person of another, coupled with an apparent ability to do so, and doing some act which creates a well-founded fear in such other person that such violence is imminent.

This is the Florida law which defines assault. The argument could be made that by following Trayvon, there could have been a well-founded fear that violence is imminent. If the evidence winds up agreeing with Zimmerman’s story, however, the fact that he was no longer following Trayvon and had lost sight of the kid would mean that the threat had passed and Trayvon would no longer have had a real reason to confront Zimmerman and assault him, which means no murder/manslaughter charges. By confronting Zimmerman, he would have willingly placed himself in harms way. If Zimmerman did run him down (I find this unlikely since Zimmerman looks like Jabba the Hut’s younger brother and Trayvon appears to be in good shape.) then it doesn’t really matter who started the fight since Trayvon would have been well within his rights to respond to the threat that Zimmerman represented and Zimmerman will face at the very least manslaughter charges. I think, though, that there is at least enough evidence to make a case against Zimmerman for assault no matter what. I know that if some stranger is following me, I am going to assume he means to harm me in some way.[/quote]

This seems like a very conceivable way it played out. The problem for Trayvon, if this is what indeed happened, is that once Zimmerman was walking away, as stated above, he no longer posed a threat. We have to remember that we are dealing with a boy however and unfortunately, and we were all young once so we know, kids don’t always use proper judgment. This gets back to my issue with Zimmerman: he did not behave properly in the first place and set the wheel in motion.

He is not a cop. The cops told him to stop following the kid. He had a gun. He should have looked at the big picture and understood the possible consequences of his actions. You carry a gun, you have to understand that you may end up using it. Why press your luck? Why create a situation in which you might use it?

Carrying a gun should make you more cautious, more careful, not more reckless or bold. If being an idiot with a hero complex who exercises bad judgment (and racially profiles) is a crime then Zimmerman should be charged with it.

To all of those who say Zimmerman (or anyone) has the right to follow someone: did you ever think that Zimmerman following someone who was, in his mind, suspicious, was seen by Trayvon as suspicious? What seed did that plant in his 17 year old mind? He probably thought Zimmerman was a perv. [/quote]
The cops didn’t tell Zimmerman not to follow. News outlets calling 911 operators “police operators” or other bullshit are further shading their agenda.

Those people are call center employees whose employer has a contract with the city. Nothing more. They are not legal authorities. As discussed earlier, many cases have occurred where call center employees recommend action or against and are ignored as transpiring events change. Shooters on the right side of the law are not punished. They are not disobeying legal commands. It is dishonest to act like they are.

You can protest Zimmerman following until blue in the face, he did nothing to deserve being attacked, especially if he was on his way back to his truck.

You still don’t know what he saw that actually caused his suspicion. So far team Martin is going of f of projected assumptions which brings us back to an objective need for legal due process and the American ideal of innocent until proven guilty.

The only changes from the beginning of the first thread to now are evidence and testimony supporting Zimmerman vs. bullshit spun by the Martin family lawyer and character descriptions, initiated by the same lawyer, of a gang affiliated, violent, thieving, drug selling young adult punk instead of a lollipop sucking, cute young teen.

If anything, conjectured assumptions supporting Zimmerman would be much stronger than the other way around. Given the young adults history, he likely was acting suspicious when the neighborhood watch reacted.

Objectively, so far, all evidence points to self defense by legal definition. Like it or not Trayvon isn’t the innocent young kid people want him to be and, given our knowledge, attacked Zimmerman.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]overstand wrote:

[quote]Hell-Billy wrote:
I wonder if this would be national news if the story was Hispanic man shoots black teen.

I wonder how the public perception of the story would be with more recent pics of the parties involved.
[/quote]

In the interest of discussing this case in good faith, the picture on the right is not Trayvon Martin.

With that said, I agree with the sentiment. In addition to getting suspended for marijuana, Trayvon was suspended back in October for graffiti. When the school’s police officer searched his bag, he found a screwdriver which he described as a “burglary tool” along with a dozen pieces of women’s jewelry and a watch.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

[/quote]
The thing is that it is irrelevant in this situation because, if true even , Zimmerman did not know so he couldn’t base his “suspicion” upon it. Also, if Trayvon’s past is somehow relevant to some then Zimmerman’s past should be as well and what we know so far paints him as a violent individual who has even been violent with the police. [/quote]

While the specific incident is irrelevant to the actual night in question, it does lend credence to the idea that Trayvon could have actually been casing houses. It also is important or should be to the larger political movement around the case.

I’m sure if it came out Zimmerman had a long history of racism and had been in trouble for attacking black people historically, you wouldn’t be saying his history was irrelevant.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]overstand wrote:

[quote]Hell-Billy wrote:
I wonder if this would be national news if the story was Hispanic man shoots black teen.

I wonder how the public perception of the story would be with more recent pics of the parties involved.
[/quote]

In the interest of discussing this case in good faith, the picture on the right is not Trayvon Martin.

With that said, I agree with the sentiment. In addition to getting suspended for marijuana, Trayvon was suspended back in October for graffiti. When the school’s police officer searched his bag, he found a screwdriver which he described as a “burglary tool” along with a dozen pieces of women’s jewelry and a watch.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/03/26/2714778/thousands-expected-at-trayvon.html

[/quote]
The thing is that it is irrelevant in this situation because, if true even , Zimmerman did not know so he couldn’t base his “suspicion” upon it. Also, if Trayvon’s past is somehow relevant to some then Zimmerman’s past should be as well and what we know so far paints him as a violent individual who has even been violent with the police. [/quote]

I don’t remember the exact wording, but his previous arrest was for something like “resisting arrest without physical resistance.”

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
-Yeap, a kid who was about 100 pounds lighter than his killer managed to propel him to the ground with a single blow to the face, a la ninja, and stayed on top of him and over power him. Totally believable, coming from a guy who has previous assault charges. LMFAO!!

[/quote]

I cringe everytime I read “Zimmercunt” or “Zimmmerfuck”…there’s no better pun you could come up with?

The point about the weight difference is irrelevant…Zimmerman is not some NFL player who’s 220 10%, that guy was a fat, untrained fuck who would have lost in a fight to Trayvon 10 times out of 10.

Still, it’s a shame the kid had to die. Hopefully this will lead to a re-evaluation of that abhorrent “Stand Your Ground” law.

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:

[quote]DarkNinjaa wrote:
-Yeap, a kid who was about 100 pounds lighter than his killer managed to propel him to the ground with a single blow to the face, a la ninja, and stayed on top of him and over power him. Totally believable, coming from a guy who has previous assault charges. LMFAO!!

[/quote]

I cringe everytime I read “Zimmercunt” or “Zimmmerfuck”…there’s no better pun you could come up with?

The point about the weight difference is irrelevant…Zimmerman is not some NFL player who’s 220 10%, that guy was a fat, untrained fuck who would have lost in a fight to Trayvon 10 times out of 10.

Still, it’s a shame the kid had to die. Hopefully this will lead to a re-evaluation of that abhorrent “Stand Your Ground” law.[/quote]
Why? So Zimmerman could’ve been beaten to death instead?

If someone has to die, it should be the aggressor. Until we know the facts, no real determination can be made. If self defense is determined, the Stand Your Ground law has absolutely served its purpose.

I must say - I may have been wrong when presented the initial set of media released “facts”. I also admit that I may be wrong again since everything presented to me is through that crooked aforementioned media outlets. DarkNinja makes some very good points. So does HG - HG has extensive legal knowledge - each and every law related fact he brings up looks to be true although I am no expert of course. Jewbacca’s legal layout has been excellent thus far.

I still think that the young man’s death is sad and could have have been avodided if Zimmerman would have stayed back. I also wander if Martin was totally innocent or was he casing properties (I doubt this because of the proximity of his father’s girlfriend’s place) - it has been brought up. Conjecture - plenty.

The media looks totally evil - more than either side of this case.

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
You still don’t know what he saw that actually caused his suspicion. So far team Martin is going of f of projected assumptions which brings us back to an objective need for legal due process and the American ideal of innocent until proven guilty.
[/quote]

We also don’t know what Zimmerman did to make Martin react the way he did. You can argue about what Zimmerman thought, felt and believed but the same questions can be asked of Martin. Bottom line: don’t try and be a hero and let the cops do their job. Whatever Martin was doing, did it warrant him dying in the end?

Whatever Zimmerman believed, was it worth taking a life over? Zimmerman may not have thought it would end the way it did but when you carry a gun you should be aware that the potential consequence can be death. Again, was it worth it? And I know, this isn’t a legal question but a moral one. Maybe Trayvon did a stupid thing but when you carry a gun you need to be smarter than the other guy.

Regarding the argument “Trayvon was a teen, teens make mistakes…”

You realize you are putting responsibility in Trayvon’s hands right? You don’t have to apologize for innocence. Young and old adults alike make mistakes and Trayvon, a young adult, certainly made a costly one.

If your strongest argument at this point is “Well he was a teen”, understand that it’s ok to realize your initial knee jerk could be wrong in light of fact, testimony and evidence becoming public.

You are grasping at straws for prides sake; not wanting to be wrong in an argument instead of objectively and honestly reacting to known fact. Admit it or not, you know it is true even if you keep arguing differently.

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Regarding the argument “Trayvon was a teen, teens make mistakes…”

You realize you are putting responsibility in Trayvon’s hands right? You don’t have to apologize for innocence. Young and old adults alike make mistakes and Trayvon, a young adult, certainly made a costly one.

If your strongest argument at this point is “Well he was a teen”, understand that it’s ok to realize your initial knee jerk could be wrong in light of fact, testimony and evidence becoming public.

You are grasping at straws for prides sake; not wanting to be wrong in an argument instead of objectively and honestly reacting to known fact. Admit it or not, you know it is true even if you keep arguing differently.[/quote]

When you carry a gun though, you can’t afford to make mistakes. Zimmerman uses proper judgment and/or doesn’t profile (or Martin isn’t black) and this whole event never happens. Zimmerman may not have broken a law, at least when it comes to the shooting, but he was wrong.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
You still don’t know what he saw that actually caused his suspicion. So far team Martin is going of f of projected assumptions which brings us back to an objective need for legal due process and the American ideal of innocent until proven guilty.
[/quote]

We also don’t know what Zimmerman did to make Martin react the way he did. You can argue about what Zimmerman thought, felt and believed but the same questions can be asked of Martin. Bottom line: don’t try and be a hero and let the cops do their job. Whatever Martin was doing, did it warrant him dying in the end? Whatever Zimmerman believed, was it worth taking a life over? Zimmerman may not have thought it would end the way it did but when you carry a gun you should be aware that the potential consequence can be death. Again, was it worth it? And I know, this isn’t a legal question but a moral one. Maybe Trayvon did a stupid thing but when you carry a gun you need to be smarter than the other guy. [/quote]
We don’t know, which is my point. Have you read the first thread and beginning of this one to gain your bearing on the conversation? Not an inflammatory question, you are a recent addition to the thread and seem to be parroting initial discussion and questions already debated.

What we do know is a neighborhood watch, highly trusted by neighbors on record (including blacks), saw enough suspicion to legally check Trayvon out. What evidence and testimony point to is that Trayvon then attacked.

Trayvon is the guilty party given what we do know, not Zimmerman and if you could be honestly objective you would agree. You probably do anyways behind your emotional responses.

[quote]zecarlo wrote:

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Regarding the argument “Trayvon was a teen, teens make mistakes…”

You realize you are putting responsibility in Trayvon’s hands right? You don’t have to apologize for innocence. Young and old adults alike make mistakes and Trayvon, a young adult, certainly made a costly one.

If your strongest argument at this point is “Well he was a teen”, understand that it’s ok to realize your initial knee jerk could be wrong in light of fact, testimony and evidence becoming public.

You are grasping at straws for prides sake; not wanting to be wrong in an argument instead of objectively and honestly reacting to known fact. Admit it or not, you know it is true even if you keep arguing differently.[/quote]

When you carry a gun though, you can’t afford to make mistakes. Zimmerman uses proper judgment and/or doesn’t profile (or Martin isn’t black) and this whole event never happens. Zimmerman may not have broken a law, at least when it comes to the shooting, but he was wrong. [/quote]
According to this post “wrong” is purely subjective as we are ignoring the law so conveniently.

And my subjective opinion on your opinion is simply nope.

[quote]HoustonGuy wrote:
Why? So Zimmerman could’ve been beaten to death instead?

If someone has to die, it should be the aggressor. Until we know the facts, no real determination can be made. If self defense is determined, the Stand Your Ground law has absolutely served its purpose.[/quote]

It’s just such a murky law, open to too much interpretation IMO.

Don’t get me wrong, I have a firearm myself to protect myself in my dwelling…I generally support the citizen’s right to own a firearm. But in the public, I think a gun is only to be used in the case of a clear, lethal threat, eg: if the aggressor has a gun, knife, or if there’s 4+ aggressors seeking to harm you.

I’m just not sure it doesn’t lead to more harm than good.