If David Duke held a rally to raise money for sick children, what then? Would participants or donors necessarily reflect his racial views?
[quote]Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
You can’t separate the message from the messenger.
Bullshit. Not one man that I knew who attended that event went there because they supported an individual. They went there because they supported what the event stood for. I didn’t attend it (because I had exams that week), but I supported what promoted that many people to get together. That event wasn’t about Farrakhan. What is truly sad is you don’t know the difference.[/quote]
I know what it was inspired by:
Additionally, he has said his entire inspiration for the “Million Man March” is based on this “vision of being swept into a UFO that took him to a larger mothership.”
and I know a racist, nutjob organized and spoke at it. That’s plenty to judge from.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
You can’t separate the message from the messenger.
Bullshit. Not one man that I knew who attended that event went there because they supported an individual. They went there because they supported what the event stood for. I didn’t attend it (because I had exams that week), but I supported what promoted that many people to get together. That event wasn’t about Farrakhan. What is truly sad is you don’t know the difference.
I know what it was inspired by:
Additionally, he has said his entire inspiration for the “Million Man March” is based on this “vision of being swept into a UFO that took him to a larger mothership.”
and I know a racist, nutjob organized and spoke at it. That’s plenty to judge from.[/quote]
President Reagan’s second wife based all major decisions on astrology, including the President’s travel schedule.
Obviously then, all republicans are nutbags by association.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
vroom wrote:
I don’t know, anytime you get anywhere near a million people to work together in a peaceful manner to support an ideal or message, you have something significant.
What, if anything, do people around here have a problem with? I realize that there were some aspects and organizers that were criticized, but what of the event itself was a problem?
Um…I brought that up to make a point that Jackson…Sharpton…and of course Farakhan have sway over many black people.
No one said it was bad.
Please…
[/quote]
You’re using the Million Man March to justify that many black people listen to them? Out of those that showed up (if even one million people marched, which I highly doubt) that’s only 3% of the entire black population.
Why is it a few black people always represent ALL of us and we never have any say in the matter? So ZEB by that same rationale I could label white people dumb, country, can’t-string-a-few-words-together since the majority of you voted for Bush, or that he has sway over the majority of you, correct?
[quote]Go-Rilla wrote:
doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
You can’t separate the message from the messenger.
Bullshit. Not one man that I knew who attended that event went there because they supported an individual. They went there because they supported what the event stood for. I didn’t attend it (because I had exams that week), but I supported what promoted that many people to get together. That event wasn’t about Farrakhan. What is truly sad is you don’t know the difference.
I know what it was inspired by:
Additionally, he has said his entire inspiration for the “Million Man March” is based on this “vision of being swept into a UFO that took him to a larger mothership.”
and I know a racist, nutjob organized and spoke at it. That’s plenty to judge from.
President Reagan’s second wife based all major decisions on astrology, including the President’s travel schedule.
[/quote]
I am still confused as to what a dream the man had has to do with the increased voter registration that resulted from this event.
[quote]vroom wrote:
If David Duke held a rally, it is safe to call those participating racist. Why isn’t it safe to assume those at Calypso Louie’s rally were also?
If David Duke held a rally to raise money for sick children, what then? Would participants or donors necessarily reflect his racial views?[/quote]
Their attendance/participation legitimizes him (and what he stands for). There are thousands of ways to donate money to sick children that do not involve former klan members. You can’t shake the devil’s hand and say you were only kidding.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Go-Rilla wrote:
doogie wrote:
Professor X wrote:
doogie wrote:
You can’t separate the message from the messenger.
Bullshit. Not one man that I knew who attended that event went there because they supported an individual. They went there because they supported what the event stood for. I didn’t attend it (because I had exams that week), but I supported what promoted that many people to get together. That event wasn’t about Farrakhan. What is truly sad is you don’t know the difference.
I know what it was inspired by:
Additionally, he has said his entire inspiration for the “Million Man March” is based on this “vision of being swept into a UFO that took him to a larger mothership.”
and I know a racist, nutjob organized and spoke at it. That’s plenty to judge from.
President Reagan’s second wife based all major decisions on astrology, including the President’s travel schedule.
I am still confused as to what a dream the man had has to do with the increased voter registration that resulted from this event.[/quote]
We’ve known you were confused for a long time. There is nothing inherently good about increasing voter registration. If David Duke holds a voter rally that signs up thousands, is it a good thing?
Each and every person that marched that day was legitimizing Farrakhan. Each of them participated in an event that made him appear to be a national leader in the Black community. Their presence gave weight to his racist, hateful views.
[quote]doogie wrote:
Each and every person that marched that day was legitimizing Farrakhan. Each of them participated in an event that made him appear to be a national leader in the Black community. Their presence gave weight to his racist, hateful views.[/quote]
No, it simply gave you something to bitch about. I rarely listen to Farrakhan and didn’t agree with everything he said. However, I understood that the event was bigger than him, just like everyone else did. You WANT to believe that he represents all black men. You WANT to believe that any black man in the public eye is speaking for black men. If you didn’t, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
Bush can speak like a complete moron and he NEVER gets linked to the mentality of ALL white people or even most white people. Meanwhile, you all search out individuals and credit them with speaking for me and every other black person in the country. Then some of you have the nerve to act as if you don’t understand when I say that my actions on the job and in public (especially if I am the one minority in a large group) represent every black person. You all are hypocrites because we have had that very discussion before.
You lump all of us together into racially labeled groups and then pretend as if you don’t understand the pressures on any successful black person.
Your eyes are closed. They just may stay that way, teacher.
Because every black man who has lived long enough understands that white america sees us all as ONE, despite not agreeing with Farrakhan on all issues, I can see the greater good that can result if the message and the ideal behind an event meant to bring us together stands true.
You can pick a man apart. You can shine a magnifying glass on his every fault. You can dissect him and discredit him. However, you can’t detroy an ideal that easily and that was why this was the largest march or demonstration in the history of Washington, surpassing the numbers who showed up for Martin Luther King Jr.'s historic “I Have a Dream” speech.
You are actually blind enough to credit Farrakhan for that. And you call me confused? Please. You are one foolish individual.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Um…I brought that up to make a point that Jackson…Sharpton…and of course Farakhan have sway over many black people.
No one said it was bad.
The fact that someone organizes an event, and that a lot of people take part in it, does not mean that they are spokespersons for a race.[/quote]
But…I never said they were a “spokesperson” for a race. However, no one can dispute that they are leaders and have some power.
If you don’t think so, I want YOU to try to organize a one million man Canadaian march.
See how far you get!
[quote]En Sabah Nur wrote:
You’re using the Million Man March to justify that many black people listen to them? Out of those that showed up (if even one million people marched, which I highly doubt) that’s only 3% of the entire black population.[/quote]
Well Mr. En Sabah Nur…you try to organize a rally where 3% of any one particular race shows up!
Let me know how you make out…Let me give you a clue: you are going to be very lonely!
[quote]
Professor X wrote:
…
You lump all of us together into racially labeled groups and then pretend as if you don’t understand the pressures on any successful black person.
Your eyes are closed. They just may stay that way, teacher.
Because every black man who has lived long enough understands that white america sees us all as ONE, despite not agreeing with Farrakhan on all issues, I can see the greater good that can result if the message and the ideal behind an event meant to bring us together stands true.
…[/quote]
Doesn’t holding this position assume ALL white people look at things a certain way? Namely, that ALL white people think ALL black people are alike?
No, only the ones that think certain “leaders” are representative of a race…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
No, it simply gave you something to bitch about. I rarely listen to Farrakhan and didn’t agree with everything he said. [/quote]
So, it’s alright to support crazy racists as long as you say you don’t agree with “everything” they say? So if a white guy attends a klan rally, designed specifically to legitimize the Grand Dragon as a national leader in the white community, the white guy isn’t racist if he says “I don’t agree with EVERYTHING the klan says”?
[quote]
However, I understood that the event was bigger than him, just like everyone else did. [/quote]
It was bigger than him only because 600,000 people decided to show up and support him.
It was his event.
It was inspired by his vision of being taken to a UFO where he found out the President and the Joint Chiefs of Staff, under the direction of Gen. Colin Powell, were planning a war on Black people.
[quote]
You WANT to believe that he represents all black men. You WANT to believe that any black man in the public eye is speaking for black men. If you didn’t, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. [/quote]
Again, you have comprehension problems. Show me a SINGLE time that I’ve said he “represents all black men”.
He doesn’t represent ANY of the Black men I know personally. They all knew their attendance would help legitimize Farrakhan, and they all stayed away. Even the ones who where living in Maryland at the time.
I know Thomas Sowell, Clarence Thomas and Colin Powell didn’t attend.
I also know Farrakhan doesn’t speak for Congressman Gary Franks of Conneticut (and a member of the Congressional Black Caucus). He didn’t attend the march, and said, “The Ku Klux Klan hates blacks, Jews and Catholics. The Nation of Islam hates whites, Jews and Catholics. Both should be despised for these warped beliefs.”
I know that Farrakhan doesn’t speak for Rep. John Lewis from Georgia who said, “I don’t want to be associated with or identified with anything that tends to demonstrate signs of racism, bigotry or anti-Semitism.”
I know that many prominent Black Christians refused to attend because they knew that their attendance would give credence to the Nation of Islam’s teachings.
I absolutely DO believe that people who show up at a rally organized by a racist are racist. It doesn’t matter if it is a klan rally or a Nation of Islam rally. Attendance lends support and legitimacy. Even Farrakahn admits this. From CNN: The response to his call for a day of atonement and reconciliation for black men strengthened his position as a leader in the African American community, Farrakhan said, “like it or not.”
[quote]
Bush can speak like a complete moron and he NEVER gets linked to the mentality of ALL white people or even most white people. Meanwhile, you all search out individuals and credit them with speaking for me and every other black person in the country. [/quote]
Show me where I’ve done that. You can’t, because I haven’t.
[quote]
Then some of you have the nerve to act as if you don’t understand when I say that my actions on the job and in public (especially if I am the one minority in a large group) represent every black person. You all are hypocrites because we have had that very discussion before.[/quote]
You are delusional. Where did I say Farrakhan represents anyone other than those who attend his rallies?
Believe me, Prof. X, I’m very aware and very happy that you aren’t representative of the thinking of ALL Black people.
[quote]
You lump all of us together into racially labeled groups and then pretend as if you don’t understand the pressures on any successful black person.[/quote]
No, I don’t lump all of any race into any group.
If you’d be honest for one second, you’d admit that I’ve only lumped those people who showed up at Farrakhan’s get-together into one category. That category is “people who support Farrakhan and his crazy, racist teachings.”
I specifically stick you into the category of “people with a persecution complex.”
[quote]
Your eyes are closed. They just may stay that way, teacher.[/quote]
No, I see you for the deluded fool you are.
[quote]
Because every black man who has lived long enough understands that white america sees us all as ONE, despite not agreeing with Farrakhan on all issues, I can see the greater good that can result if the message and the ideal behind an event meant to bring us together stands true.[/quote]
EVERY Black man? White America? What did you say about lumping people into racially labeled groups? Hypocrite.
YOU CAN’T separate the messenger from the message. It’s dishonest to even try. Hell, during his own freaking speech that day, Farrakhan said, “You can’t separate Newton from the law that Newton discovered, nor can you separate Einstein from the theory of relativity. It would be silly to try to separate Moses from the Torah or Jesus from the Gospel or Muhammad from the Koran.”
You can’t show up at an event organized by a racist who was making racist statements even the week before the march, and say you aren’t racist because you only support SOME of his ideas.
[quote]
You can pick a man apart. You can shine a magnifying glass on his every fault. You can dissect him and discredit him. However, you can’t detroy an ideal that easily and that was why this was the largest march or demonstration in the history of Washington, surpassing the numbers who showed up for Martin Luther King Jr.'s historic “I Have a Dream” speech.[/quote]
What a hypocrite you are. You, who sees racism everywhere you look, consider quoting Farrakhan to be “picking a man apart” rather than highlighting his racism?
“Murder and lying comes easy for white people.”
“The Jews don’t like Farrakhan, so they call me Hitler. Well, that’s a good name. Hitler was a very great man.”
“White people are potential humans - they haven’t evolved yet.”
“The real enemy doesn’t wear red nor necessarily blue but white, even when he’s butt naked.”
“Eighty-five percent of the masses of the people of earth are victimized by Jews.”
Quoting his racist statements is “picking a man apart”?
Quoting his crazy speech on the day in question is “picking the man apart”?
“Abraham Lincoln, the sixteenth president. Thomas Jefferson, the third president, and 16 and three make 19 again. What is so deep about this number 19? Why are we standing on the Capitol steps today? That number 19 – when you have a nine you have a womb that is pregnant. And when you have a one standing by the nine, it means that there’s something secret that has to be unfolded.”
And actually, the largest gathering in DC was the Bicentennial celebration. Farrakhan specifically wanted to surpass the numbers who showed up for Martin Luther King Jr.'s historic “I Have a Dream” speech in order to legitimize himself (and his beliefs) as leader in the Black community. Thanks to the 600,000 who showed up, he was able to do just that.
[quote]
You are actually blind enough to credit Farrakhan for that. And you call me confused? Please. You are one foolish individual.[/quote]
So you are saying it WASN’T Farrakhan who organized the rally that drew 600,000 supporters? Do tell, who was it?
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Professor X wrote:
…
You lump all of us together into racially labeled groups and then pretend as if you don’t understand the pressures on any successful black person.
Your eyes are closed. They just may stay that way, teacher.
Because every black man who has lived long enough understands that white america sees us all as ONE, despite not agreeing with Farrakhan on all issues, I can see the greater good that can result if the message and the ideal behind an event meant to bring us together stands true.
…
Doesn’t holding this position assume ALL white people look at things a certain way? Namely, that ALL white people think ALL black people are alike?[/quote]
Are you saying the majority don’t think this way? Let me ask you, if a black president spoke the way Bush does, how long do you think it would be before he would be crucified for it? People would associate his speech with being black. Look at how my views are lumped in with Jesse Jackson, even though I don’t even know where the guy stands on most issues because I haven’t even heard the man speak in years. I don’t go looking for info on him so unless his image is thrown in front of me, his views are mostly a nonissue to me.
Your comment implies that in society, I am seen as a man first and a BLACK man second. What world are you living in because things are not this way.
Why are my friends arguing with pox?
I’ve stopped arguing with him until he answers yes or no to the basic questions:
pox, does black on white racism exist?
Or,
If you are black, can you be a racist?
JeffR
[quote]BostonBarrister
Doesn’t holding this position assume ALL white people look at things a certain way? Namely, that ALL white people think ALL black people are alike?
vroom wrote:
No, only the ones that think certain “leaders” are representative of a race…[/quote]
One could certainly take that position based on the discussion, but I wanted to clarify, given the specific statement on how “white America” views black people.
[quote]
Professor X wrote:
…
You lump all of us together into racially labeled groups and then pretend as if you don’t understand the pressures on any successful black person.
Your eyes are closed. They just may stay that way, teacher.
Because every black man who has lived long enough understands that white america sees us all as ONE, despite not agreeing with Farrakhan on all issues, I can see the greater good that can result if the message and the ideal behind an event meant to bring us together stands true.
…
BostonBarrister wrote:
Doesn’t holding this position assume ALL white people look at things a certain way? Namely, that ALL white people think ALL black people are alike?
Professor X wrote:
Are you saying the majority don’t think this way? Let me ask you, if a black president spoke the way Bush does, how long do you think it would be before he would be crucified for it? People would associate his speech with being black. Look at how my views are lumped in with Jesse Jackson, even though I don’t even know where the guy stands on most issues because I haven’t even heard the man speak in years. I don’t go looking for info on him so unless his image is thrown in front of me, his views are mostly a nonissue to me.
Your comment implies that in society, I am seen as a man first and a BLACK man second. What world are you living in because things are not this way.[/quote]
Are you trying to tell me Bush DOESN’T get crucified for his misspeaking? [ADDENDUM: And that they don’t tack that on with the label “Dumb Southerner”, by which they mean white Southerner…] Where exactly did you get that list of misstatements? Ever heard of a little feature called the “Bushism of the Day”? And, have you ever heard anyone try to use those misstatements as evidence that Bush is not intelligent? Come on now…
Anyway, I’m not saying that there are not those individuals who generalize illogically (committing the classic “part to whole” logical fallacy). What I am saying is that it happens on both sides of the fence, and it’s equally illogical either way.
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
Anyway, I’m not saying that there are not those individuals who generalize illogically (committing the classic “part to whole” logical fallacy). What I am saying is that it happens on both sides of the fence, and it’s equally illogical either way.[/quote]
It no doubt happens on both sides of the fence, but only in terms of minorities do these negatives become representations of the entire race or culture instead of the mistakes of the individual. Never will you hear that Bush represents most or all white people. How many times in this thread has the attempt to link most or all blacks been made in relation to individuals?
Doogie, I’m not even going through all of what you wrote because you are arguing against Farrakhan. No one cares. I am not arguing FOR Farrakhan. I do not support Farrakhan. Most of the people who attended that rally do not support Farrakhan. You want to believe otherwise. Explaining it further is a waste of time.
And JeffR is just an idiot.