Birthers are Crazy

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Makavali,

I figured that out ( just a bit late).

Sifu, Rockscar,

I think it’s a matter of opinion. The president didn’t bad mouth America, in those same speeches he talked about “American Exceptionalism” and all of the other “traits” that make America the #1 destination for huddled masses anywhere in the world, but he also pointed out that we haven’t always been perfect, that doesn’t add up to an apology. When the President goes to Europe and meets with leaders from countries that we ignored, countries whose laws we violated (Italy/France/Renditions ring a bell) and countries that we essentially told to sit at the kids table while the grown-ups work, the President should bring a little humility, a little bit of “things will be different on my watch” mentality, and without kissing ass letting our allies know that we view them as important. That’s what he did.
All of our Presidents (in recent history anyway) have apologized for at least one blunder on their watch, even for things they were not directly responsible for, since the “Apology Tour” Obama has actually apologized for things, and in the apologies he took the blame and said “we’re sorry” that is the clear difference. But again it is a matter of opinion and perspective.
[/quote]

“In America, there’s a failure to appreciate Europe’s leading role in the world. Instead of celebrating your dynamic union and seeking to partner with you to meet common challenges, there have been times where America has shown arrogance and been dismissive, even derisive.”"

How exactly does Europe have the leading role in the world and how exactly is it that Americans fail to appreciate it? About the only thing they are ahead of us on is the decent into socialism that he is trying to play catch up on. The admission of wrong doing is part of apologizing. This is an apologetic statement.

What is so dynamic about the EU that we are arrogant not to celebrate it? It is undemocratic, corrupt to the core and led by Maoists and Marxists. Obama just recently gave away two hundred ten Billion dollars of our money to prop up their currency the Euro. The Euro is a hideous socialist creation that threatens the world and needs to die. The sooner the better. He has no business throwing away hundreds of Billions of our dollars to prop it up.

Obama’s take on American exceptionalism is everyone says their country is the greatest and exceptional. So it really doesn’t mean anything, it’s just something people say. He doesn’t believe in American exceptionalism.

That is why he canceled our manned space program. That program more than anything else demonstrated American, technological, preeminence. John F Kennedy must be rolling in his grave to see another Democrat President kill off his vision for American greatness. It’s because Obama didn’t grow up here and experience the Gemini or Apollo era as a child. He just doesn’t get it.

[quote]Sifu wrote:<<< How exactly does Europe have the leading role in the world and how exactly is it that Americans fail to appreciate it? About the only thing they are ahead of us on is the decent into socialism >>>[/quote]Question asked and answered. Seriously. He considers what you call “the descent into socialism” to be a good thing that Europe is leading the western world in regards to. I am not even being sarcastic.

Sifu, Tribulus,

First off, I don’t want the US to turn “Socialist” at least not in the way you imagine it. I am for Universal Health care (hopefully in a more effective way then the Obama/Romney Care program we are getting) and I am for social welfare programs ( as a safety net, not as a permanent place of being), I don’t think we need to tax the rich at 60-70% and redistribute wealth, I am not anti-wealth or anti-success.

Second, as your statements demonstrate, we have no appreciation for Europe and what it does, we are a military and economic power but that is not the entire substance of a nation is it?
Happiness- The US ranks 11th behind lots of “Socialist” mostly European countries.
Denmark
Finland
Norway
Netherlands
Canada
Switzerland
Sweden
New Zealand
Australia
Ireland

Health Care
the WHO ranked the countries based on these factors:
Health (50%) : disability-adjusted life expectancy
Overall or average : 25%
Distribution or equality : 25%
Responsiveness (25%) : speed of service, protection of privacy, and quality of amenities
Overall or average : 12.5%
Distribution or equality : 12.5%
Fair financial contribution : 25%

the US ranked 37th, the top 10 included france, italy, spain , austria see what is going on there. The US also ranks 28th in life expectancy (despite spending the most $ on health care)

Innovation:
The thought that somehow high taxes and free health care limit innovation is misleading, the top 5 countries for biotech innovation and patents were:
USA
Singapore
Canada
Sweden
Denmark

Three of the top 5 are “socilaized” societies, with healthcare for all, and longer life expectancy than the US

I am not saying we need to become Europe, I am saying that some of the things they have done make sense, they took the profit motive out of treating disease without losing their innovation, they have a happy populace, they have high standards of living etc.
If the US took pains to avoid the obvious flaws of many European countries (massive spending on unemployment, lots of state mandated vacation etc) and instead focused on the things that work, people would/could still get obscenely rich, and the working poor could still get healthcare.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Sifu, Tribulus,

First off, I don’t want the US to turn “Socialist” at least not in the way you imagine it. I am for Universal Health care (hopefully in a more effective way then the Obama/Romney Care program we are getting) and I am for social welfare programs ( as a safety net, not as a permanent place of being), I don’t think we need to tax the rich at 60-70% and redistribute wealth, I am not anti-wealth or anti-success.

Second, as your statements demonstrate, we have no appreciation for Europe and what it does, we are a military and economic power but that is not the entire substance of a nation is it?
Happiness- The US ranks 11th behind lots of “Socialist” mostly European countries.
Denmark
Finland
Norway
Netherlands
Canada
Switzerland
Sweden
New Zealand
Australia
Ireland

Health Care
the WHO ranked the countries based on these factors:
Health (50%) : disability-adjusted life expectancy
Overall or average : 25%
Distribution or equality : 25%
Responsiveness (25%) : speed of service, protection of privacy, and quality of amenities
Overall or average : 12.5%
Distribution or equality : 12.5%
Fair financial contribution : 25%

the US ranked 37th, the top 10 included france, italy, spain , austria see what is going on there. The US also ranks 28th in life expectancy (despite spending the most $ on health care)

Innovation:
The thought that somehow high taxes and free health care limit innovation is misleading, the top 5 countries for biotech innovation and patents were:
USA
Singapore
Canada
Sweden
Denmark

Three of the top 5 are “socilaized” societies, with healthcare for all, and longer life expectancy than the US

I am not saying we need to become Europe, I am saying that some of the things they have done make sense, they took the profit motive out of treating disease without losing their innovation, they have a happy populace, they have high standards of living etc.
If the US took pains to avoid the obvious flaws of many European countries (massive spending on unemployment, lots of state mandated vacation etc) and instead focused on the things that work, people would/could still get obscenely rich, and the working poor could still get healthcare.

[/quote]

Just because I live in such a paradise:

We did not sacrifice innovation? You are aware that Austrias medical research was one of the leading, if not the leading in the world not too long ago, right? Where are we now? You do know that if you have cancer or any serious kinds of disease you are better off in the US, right? You are aware that it can take months, if not years to get an appointment - meanwhile that undefined shadow in your whatever might grow.

And hey, Vienna apparently has the highest living quality in the world, right? Sure, if you dont mind that once a year someone comes in your house or appartment to check your boiler so that you do not hurt yourself or your water installations, so that you do not waste that precious life giving fluid and that they do turn your gas and water off if you do not want them there and paying around 8-9$ a gallon and an extra tax if, God forbid, your car has more than 60 PS or so and a 50% income tax on everything you make over roughly 60000 EUR and of course payroll taxes on top of that and a VAT taxes of 20% on everything you actually you want to buy with what is left, in other words IF YOU ARE A TOTAL FUCKING SHEEP, well then, its awesome.

God, if I could force you to be in an Austrian hospital for only one week with something serious I would - you would sing the star spangled banner all the way to the airport because a fascist health care system > a socialist one.

Maybe that is why we are so fucking healthy. Nobody wants to roll the dice.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Sifu, Tribulus,

First off, I don’t want the US to turn “Socialist” at least not in the way you imagine it. I am for Universal Health care (hopefully in a more effective way then the Obama/Romney Care program we are getting) and I am for social welfare programs ( as a safety net, not as a permanent place of being), I don’t think we need to tax the rich at 60-70% and redistribute wealth, I am not anti-wealth or anti-success.

Second, as your statements demonstrate, we have no appreciation for Europe and what it does, we are a military and economic power but that is not the entire substance of a nation is it?
Happiness- The US ranks 11th behind lots of “Socialist” mostly European countries.
Denmark
Finland
Norway
Netherlands
Canada
Switzerland
Sweden
New Zealand
Australia
Ireland

Health Care
the WHO ranked the countries based on these factors:
Health (50%) : disability-adjusted life expectancy
Overall or average : 25%
Distribution or equality : 25%
Responsiveness (25%) : speed of service, protection of privacy, and quality of amenities
Overall or average : 12.5%
Distribution or equality : 12.5%
Fair financial contribution : 25%

the US ranked 37th, the top 10 included france, italy, spain , austria see what is going on there. The US also ranks 28th in life expectancy (despite spending the most $ on health care)

Innovation:
The thought that somehow high taxes and free health care limit innovation is misleading, the top 5 countries for biotech innovation and patents were:
USA
Singapore
Canada
Sweden
Denmark

Three of the top 5 are “socilaized” societies, with healthcare for all, and longer life expectancy than the US

I am not saying we need to become Europe, I am saying that some of the things they have done make sense, they took the profit motive out of treating disease without losing their innovation, they have a happy populace, they have high standards of living etc.
If the US took pains to avoid the obvious flaws of many European countries (massive spending on unemployment, lots of state mandated vacation etc) and instead focused on the things that work, people would/could still get obscenely rich, and the working poor could still get healthcare.

[/quote]

At least people who die or are unhappy in a free country are so by their own hand.

Here is an idea, if you want to help the poor get coverage, pay for it. Voting for it is slacktivism at it’s finest.

[quote]orion wrote:

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Sifu, Tribulus,

First off, I don’t want the US to turn “Socialist” at least not in the way you imagine it. I am for Universal Health care (hopefully in a more effective way then the Obama/Romney Care program we are getting) and I am for social welfare programs ( as a safety net, not as a permanent place of being), I don’t think we need to tax the rich at 60-70% and redistribute wealth, I am not anti-wealth or anti-success.

Second, as your statements demonstrate, we have no appreciation for Europe and what it does, we are a military and economic power but that is not the entire substance of a nation is it?
Happiness- The US ranks 11th behind lots of “Socialist” mostly European countries.
Denmark
Finland
Norway
Netherlands
Canada
Switzerland
Sweden
New Zealand
Australia
Ireland

Health Care
the WHO ranked the countries based on these factors:
Health (50%) : disability-adjusted life expectancy
Overall or average : 25%
Distribution or equality : 25%
Responsiveness (25%) : speed of service, protection of privacy, and quality of amenities
Overall or average : 12.5%
Distribution or equality : 12.5%
Fair financial contribution : 25%

the US ranked 37th, the top 10 included france, italy, spain , austria see what is going on there. The US also ranks 28th in life expectancy (despite spending the most $ on health care)

Innovation:
The thought that somehow high taxes and free health care limit innovation is misleading, the top 5 countries for biotech innovation and patents were:
USA
Singapore
Canada
Sweden
Denmark

Three of the top 5 are “socilaized” societies, with healthcare for all, and longer life expectancy than the US

I am not saying we need to become Europe, I am saying that some of the things they have done make sense, they took the profit motive out of treating disease without losing their innovation, they have a happy populace, they have high standards of living etc.
If the US took pains to avoid the obvious flaws of many European countries (massive spending on unemployment, lots of state mandated vacation etc) and instead focused on the things that work, people would/could still get obscenely rich, and the working poor could still get healthcare.

[/quote]

Just because I live in such a paradise:

We did not sacrifice innovation? You are aware that Austrias medical research was one of the leading, if not the leading in the world not too long ago, right? Where are we now? You do know that if you have cancer or any serious kinds of disease you are better off in the US, right? You are aware that it can take months, if not years to get an appointment - meanwhile that undefined shadow in your whatever might grow.

And hey, Vienna apparently has the highest living quality in the world, right? Sure, if you dont mind that once a year someone comes in your house or appartment to check your boiler so that you do not hurt yourself or your water installations, so that you do not waste that precious life giving fluid and that they do turn your gas and water off if you do not want them there and paying around 8-9$ a gallon and an extra tax if, God forbid, your car has more than 60 PS or so and a 50% income tax on everything you make over roughly 60000 EUR and of course payroll taxes on top of that and a VAT taxes of 20% on everything you actually you want to buy with what is left, in other words IF YOU ARE A TOTAL FUCKING SHEEP, well then, its awesome.

God, if I could force you to be in an Austrian hospital for only one week with something serious I would - you would sing the star spangled banner all the way to the airport because a fascist health care system > a socialist one.

Maybe that is why we are so fucking healthy. Nobody wants to roll the dice. [/quote]

This is the first time I have ever given one of these. And to orion, no less. Will wonders never cease?

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
Sifu, Tribulus,

First off, I don’t want the US to turn “Socialist” at least not in the way you imagine it. I am for Universal Health care (hopefully in a more effective way then the Obama/Romney Care program we are getting) and I am for social welfare programs ( as a safety net, not as a permanent place of being), I don’t think we need to tax the rich at 60-70% and redistribute wealth, I am not anti-wealth or anti-success.[/quote]

And this is the first thing that every left wing nut says in order to distance himself from Socialism. Do you think Obama would have gotten elected if he had told the electorate he is a far left winger? Nope.

  1. If you are for “Universal Health Care” then you are for a socialist program. Your more effective way will put over 1/7th of the economy in the hands of the US government. And why not they did such a good job with the Post Office right? RIGHT?

  2. You’re for welfare as a safety net well that’s a safe thing to say isn’t it? But what your idea of a safety net and someone say in the middle of the road thinks is a good safety net might just be miles apart.

  3. This is your biggest laugh line. Oh you didn’t mean it to be funny did you? You’re not for taxing the rich at 60% to 70%, well isn’t that big of you? I want everyone to notice that he didn’t say anything bad about the US government taking over half of everything the wealthy make.

Stop trying to pass yourself off as some middle of the road reasonable individual, that’s not the case. You’re doing what your hero had to do in order to fool the majority into voting for him. And by the way just about what every democrat must do in order to keep people thinking that they’re not as far left as they really are.

You’re pretending.

And you’re still a joke B r i a n.

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< This is the first time I have ever given one of these. And to orion, no less. Will wonders never cease?[/quote]I’ve been telling him for years that he is a curious bipolar critter that sometimes in the very same post will treat us to both prattling blithering gibberish AND toweringly brilliant profundity. Lifty has that gene too. Reading their posts sometimes I have one eye watering in pain and the other with the brow raised in appreciation.

The fatal flaw in the policy thinking of folks like this Hanson guy is that they keep deluding themselves into believing that they can force “fairness” (defined by them of course) into a universe crippled by sin wherein there will ALWAYS be vaaast multitudes whose lives really suck. The artificial attempt at coercing charity outta unwilling donors at the point of the civil magistrate has always, IS and will always fail in loud grotesque spectacular fashion as we are at this moment witnessing. On every level it is a disaster. The only people who benefit are the lying lowlife politicians who buy off their constituents with money stolen from others allegedly in the name of “fairness” and “compassion”.

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Pay attention Trib, you are being taxed at that rate because you are in business. If you made 14-k last year pumping gas you would pay ZIP!

[/quote]

Be carefull not to confuse income tax with SS & Medicare (payroll) taxes.

To be honest, chances are Trib owed the 1,800 in self employment taxes, which are the employee and employer portions of SS & medicare taxes. All 1099 employee’s (I’m assuming Trib is one) have to pay into SS & Medicare, just like all W2 employees. (1099 employees can write off expenses, etc, but that is a whole different post.)

For every dollar in wages paid the employer must pay in 7.65% to SS & Medicare. The employee also pays in 7.65%. (Obama shaved 2% off of the employees in 2010 I believe, but that is going away soon. The Repub’s only extended it through 2012. I’m going on memory here.) So when someone is self employed they have to pay the employer and employee portion, Brian’s 13%…

If you re-worded your statement to:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Pay attention Trib, you are paying the same payroll taxes at the same rate any business with employees does, plus the employee’s portion. If you made 14-k last year pumping gas you would pay ZIP in income tax, but would still have to pay into social security and medicare at roughtly $900-1000, withheld weekly from each paycheck!

[/quote]

No I don’t know anyone’s personal situation, but I have filed a fuck load of tax returns.

I am sure Trib’s accountant did the best he could, just didn’t do a good job explaining WHY he owed what he owed.

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:<<< How exactly does Europe have the leading role in the world and how exactly is it that Americans fail to appreciate it? About the only thing they are ahead of us on is the decent into socialism >>>[/quote]Question asked and answered. Seriously. He considers what you call “the descent into socialism” to be a good thing that Europe is leading the western world in regards to. I am not even being sarcastic.
[/quote]

That occurred to me as well. Europe is a mess. The reality is they have much to learn from the US. Europe is a house of cards that is about to collapse. Right now they still have money left and some credit. But once the money dries up and there is no more credit left to finance the giveaways things are going to get nasty there.

I’ll add as well the employer also pays other taxes and fees simply for having an employee.

Depending on the industry 30% overhead is typical.

Which means, for every employee that earns 100k, it costs his employer 130K…

[quote]Sifu wrote:

That occurred to me as well. Europe is a mess. The reality is they have much to learn from the US. Europe is a house of cards that is about to collapse. Right now they still have money left and some credit. But once the money dries up and there is no more credit left to finance the giveaways things are going to get nasty there. [/quote]

I don’t know how anyone that has read a newspaper in the last 6 months doesn’t see this…

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Cortes wrote:<<< This is the first time I have ever given one of these. And to orion, no less. Will wonders never cease?[/quote]I’ve been telling him for years that he is a curious bipolar critter that sometimes in the very same post will treat us to both prattling blithering gibberish AND toweringly brilliant profundity. Lifty has that gene too. Reading their posts sometimes I have one eye watering in pain and the other with the brow raised in appreciation.
[/quote]

Yeah well, what is gibberish and what is profundity lies, at least in my case, very much in the eye of the beholder.

[quote]countingbeans wrote:

[quote]Sifu wrote:

That occurred to me as well. Europe is a mess. The reality is they have much to learn from the US. Europe is a house of cards that is about to collapse. Right now they still have money left and some credit. But once the money dries up and there is no more credit left to finance the giveaways things are going to get nasty there. [/quote]

I don’t know how anyone that has read a newspaper in the last 6 months doesn’t see this…

[/quote]

Yeah, but do you see what you do not see?

Meaning, in Europe its out in the open now.

In the press, in the parliaments, grandstanding, blustering, outright buffonery, threats of secession, kind reminders not to let the door hit them in the back when they go, is it not glorious?

Please show me where in the US there is even the hint of a debate?

Show me where in the US people of consequence discuss this in a way that makes you believe that they get that the house is on fire?

[quote]orion wrote:

Show me where in the US people of consequence discuss this in a way that makes you believe that they get that the house is on fire?[/quote]

ZEB,

I actually think the old tax rate of 38% on the top earners was sufficient.

I don’t see why “welfare” programs should last more than 1 year at a time (excluding disability and traditional SS) and I think they should have a limit to how many times you can be on them.

I don’t think education and healthcare should be for profit, I believe they fall under the “…promote the general welfare.” portion of America’s founding principles.

I don’t think that Europe is a model, but I think that they have some good aspects. When people complain about the medical care in Europe I don’t know why they think that will apply here, the infrastructure is already in place, we already spend the most $ per patient and the most total $ in the world, and we are not reaping equivalent returns. The US has the best healthcare in the world, that is true but the fine print says …“IF YOU HAVE INSURANCE.” condemning the working poor (because the really poor get medicaid) to sub-par or non-existent healthcare is not acceptable.

I am a liberal, not a socialist/communist/marxist etc. There is a huge difference.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,

I actually think the old tax rate of 38% on the top earners was sufficient.

I don’t see why “welfare” programs should last more than 1 year at a time (excluding disability and traditional SS) and I think they should have a limit to how many times you can be on them.

[/quote]
like half the people on welfare claim disability. If you personally want to create a saftey net, start your own charity.

Private, for profit, healthcare does a much better job than both non-profit private and public versions. Government healthcare has about the highest denial rate among providers. Having coverage and receiving care aren’t the same thing.

Profit is good. It goes to investors and growth. You probably hate your private insurance company running at 4% profit while owning a MAC, Iphone, and Ipod with a company making like 30% profit.

There isn’t really a general welfare clause in the US. And even if there was, spending on a specific person(s) isn’t general welfare.

[quote]

I don’t think that Europe is a model, but I think that they have some good aspects. When people complain about the medical care in Europe I don’t know why they think that will apply here, the infrastructure is already in place, we already spend the most $ per patient and the most total $ in the world, and we are not reaping equivalent returns. The US has the best healthcare in the world, that is true but the fine print says …“IF YOU HAVE INSURANCE.” condemning the working poor (because the really poor get medicaid) to sub-par or non-existent healthcare is not acceptable.

I am a liberal, not a socialist/communist/marxist etc. There is a huge difference.[/quote]

None of the ongoing legislation and debate about the subject is anything being done that would increase the supply of medical treatment. (Obamacare actually does things to decrease the supply). You can get people on all the coverage you want, but the bottom line is that there isn’t more treatment available. If you are going to be getting people actual care, it must necessarily come from someone else. It’s like thinking it’s unfair that not everyone gets to go to a sold out sporting event, so your solution is to hand out tickets to everyone. Only so many people fit in the stadium.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,

I actually think the old tax rate of 38% on the top earners was sufficient.[/quote]

What do you base this on? 38% is oppressive, I paid it and I don’t like it. I had less money to expand my business and less money for other activities as well. If you add in state tax, property tax and the many other more minor taxes I was keeping about half of what I was making and that acted as a motivator for me to make less not more.

I don’t want to pay anyone to sit on their ass for one year. A funny thing happens when you hand someone money for doing nothing, they tend to do nothing.

Yeah…like the post office. How long will it take you liberals to realize that the government should not be in business they don’t get it and they can’t do it.

Yes, there is a difference and your hero Obama is teetering on being a socialist. If he had his way, as he may if the people are stupid enough to give him a second term he will take an even sharper left turn without an electorate to keep him in check.

[quote]BrianHanson wrote:
ZEB,

I actually think the old tax rate of 38% on the top earners was sufficient.

I don’t see why “welfare” programs should last more than 1 year at a time (excluding disability and traditional SS) and I think they should have a limit to how many times you can be on them.

I don’t think education and healthcare should be for profit, I believe they fall under the “…promote the general welfare.” portion of America’s founding principles.

I don’t think that Europe is a model, but I think that they have some good aspects. When people complain about the medical care in Europe I don’t know why they think that will apply here, the infrastructure is already in place, we already spend the most $ per patient and the most total $ in the world, and we are not reaping equivalent returns. The US has the best healthcare in the world, that is true but the fine print says …“IF YOU HAVE INSURANCE.” condemning the working poor (because the really poor get medicaid) to sub-par or non-existent healthcare is not acceptable.

I am a liberal, not a socialist/communist/marxist etc. There is a huge difference.[/quote]

If I have a problem I go to a private doctor.

I pay out of pocket.

Somehow I cannot afford “free healthcare” where a bored doctor that is payed by government will think about my case all of 5 minutes before he describes me something or other that might or might not work.

They are not all that way, but even the best get so and so much in a fiscal year per patient and they have to make do with that.

God forbid you have something that falls two inches out of the normal range of his experience, you are a cots factor at best and a nuisance at worst.

For profit doctors are awesome.

They take out a pencil and a piece of paper.

They ask seemingly unrelated questions.

They make connections I did not think of.

In the not so long run, they are cheaper.

A lot of working class people cannot afford preventative healthcare and then end up in the emergency room where fixing the problem costs way more than the preventative care would have and there’s no way they can pay for the visit and treatment so the costs end up on the tax payers and the people who end up in the emergency room end up in debt making it more difficult for them to make more and be better and more productive members of society. It’s a vicious cycle and contributes the rising costs of healthcare.

If there’s a problem with this logic please point it out. If you think there’s solution to model that doesn’t involve universal healthcare, I’d like to know that too.