Bible Contradictions

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
701

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Heretics after God’s heart.
[/quote]

Why would it need to be in the Bible, we have one from the first couple of centuries.

The Greeks, Justin Martyr pointed out that their pursuit for truth was the pursuit of Christians, and their pursuit of the source and their love for the source of truth was the same as our pursuit of and love for Jesus, since Jesus is truth.

The Greeks were Christians without knowing it. Von Til may have been a man after God, like the Greeks after the truth (which is Jesus), both having heretical ideas does not disqualify them from being after God.

His pursuit may have been genuine, doesn’t mean he was right. Your knowledge of heresy is a little shaky it seems. Just because someone is a heretic (depending on what it is) doesn’t disqualify them from being someone who is after the truth, Jesus.[/quote]There is just no possible way I could ever be a Catholic.
[/quote]

Why? Afraid of truth? We’re not biblical literalists, but neither are you. The difference is that we know it and you don’t. You cannot cherry pick what you want to be literal about. That which is, is, that which isn’t, isn’t. [/quote]I will not stand before the judgment seat of Christ having to explain why I told the world that people were Christians without knowing it. How there are heretics under grace. I really don’t wanna fall back into war with you guys, I really don’t. I also don’t know what you want me to say Pat. Is there a way I can say that what Chris said in the above post brings joy to the heart of Satan so that you won’t accuse me of hating him… and you? Should I violate my deepest convictions and conscience according to the unmistakable declarations of the Word of God and just agree, to keep the peace? I won’t do it. This is goin absolutely nowhere. I mean like really nowhere. I can’t even find a way to have an upbeat lighthearted attitude about something like this.
Romans 10:13-17 ESV

[quote]13-For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14-How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15-And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16-But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17-So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.[/quote]I know, I know, it requires special authority to make passages like this say something other than what they clearly say.
[/quote]

I’m not sure why you’re throwing a fit, given your own admission that YOU were a a spiritually dead heretic, and despite being a spiritually dead heretic, God loved you and chose to save you over the other spiritually dead heretics that God doesn’t love. Obviously, you believe at least some spiritually dead heretics are in the mind and heart of God.

702

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

What happened? How long? How old? Did you go to mass? Were you confirmed? Just kind of curious… I am always interested to hear people’s stories.

[/quote]
I guess it ended when I started actually reading the Bible when I was about 16 years old. I actually used to ride my bike to Mass by myself because my family didn’t go. I was confirmed, went to sunday school, youth group etc. [/quote]

Ah sounds like you lacked some guidance. How did your family feel about it?[/quote]

Most of them think I am still Catholic

703

[quote]forlife wrote: <<< I’m not sure why you’re throwing a fit, given your own admission that YOU were a a spiritually dead heretic, and despite being a spiritually dead heretic, God loved you and chose to save you over the other spiritually dead heretics that God doesn’t love. Obviously, you believe at least some spiritually dead heretics are in the mind and heart of God.
[/quote] God indeed can and does love and elect whomsoever He pleases and many truly horrific specimens have come to gloriously testify of His transforming power and grace. However, now stay with me here, He changed them in the act of saving them and they were universally well aware that it was happening. There is absolutely no such thing as Christian who does not know they are, nor is there or can there be any such thing as a heretic who is presently bound for heaven. That is another gospel which the apostle called anathema. Think with me for a second. IF that is true, how many people are in for the most eternally heartbreakingly rude awakening fathomable.

704

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote: <<< I’m not sure why you’re throwing a fit, given your own admission that YOU were a a spiritually dead heretic, and despite being a spiritually dead heretic, God loved you and chose to save you over the other spiritually dead heretics that God doesn’t love. Obviously, you believe at least some spiritually dead heretics are in the mind and heart of God.
[/quote] God indeed can and does love and elect whomsoever He pleases and many truly horrific specimens have come to gloriously testify of His transforming power and grace. However, now stay with me here, He changed them in the act of saving them and they were universally well aware that it was happening. There is absolutely no such thing as Christian who does not know they are, nor is there or can there be any such thing as a heretic who is presently bound for heaven. That is another gospel which the apostle called anathema. Think with me for a second. IF that is true, how many people are in for the most eternally heartbreakingly rude awakening fathomable.
[/quote]

The original question was whether heretics could be in the heart of God, not whether heretics could be Christians, or whether heretics could be saved absent the atoning power of Christ. Clearly, you believe heretics can be in the heart of God, and nothing they do will make any difference if God decides to save them.

So cut us heretics some slack. For all you know, God has a plan for us like He did for you.

705

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Heretics after God’s heart.
[/quote]

Why would it need to be in the Bible, we have one from the first couple of centuries.

The Greeks, Justin Martyr pointed out that their pursuit for truth was the pursuit of Christians, and their pursuit of the source and their love for the source of truth was the same as our pursuit of and love for Jesus, since Jesus is truth.

The Greeks were Christians without knowing it. Von Til may have been a man after God, like the Greeks after the truth (which is Jesus), both having heretical ideas does not disqualify them from being after God.

His pursuit may have been genuine, doesn’t mean he was right. Your knowledge of heresy is a little shaky it seems. Just because someone is a heretic (depending on what it is) doesn’t disqualify them from being someone who is after the truth, Jesus.[/quote]There is just no possible way I could ever be a Catholic.
[/quote]

Why? Afraid of truth? We’re not biblical literalists, but neither are you. The difference is that we know it and you don’t. You cannot cherry pick what you want to be literal about. That which is, is, that which isn’t, isn’t. [/quote]I will not stand before the judgment seat of Christ having to explain why I told the world that people were Christians without knowing it. How there are heretics under grace. I really don’t wanna fall back into war with you guys, I really don’t. I also don’t know what you want me to say Pat. Is there a way I can say that what Chris said in the above post brings joy to the heart of Satan so that you won’t accuse me of hating him… and you? Should I violate my deepest convictions and conscience according to the unmistakable declarations of the Word of God and just agree, to keep the peace? I won’t do it. This is goin absolutely nowhere. I mean like really nowhere. I can’t even find a way to have an upbeat lighthearted attitude about something like this.
Romans 10:13-17 ESV

[quote]13-For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14-How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15-And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16-But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17-So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.[/quote]I know, I know, it requires special authority to make passages like this say something other than what they clearly say.
[/quote]

Oh really, so you take the creation stories literally? So you do take the bible literally correct, I mean let me be really, really, really clear, you take the Bible as the eternal truthful word of God as his instructions to Him to you right?

If so then why do you deny and defy Jesus himself when he said the following:
'[53] So Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
(John 6:53 ESV)”

He said “truly, truly”, did he not? This is not a third person account happening after the fact, written for a bunch of nomadic, animal screwing, idol worshiping neanderthals; these are the words Jesus himself spoke.
Oh wait, I know! It’s now a metaphor right? He didn’t mean it literally. Suddenly it’s a symbolic!

Hang on let’s see what else Jesus himself said that deny as heresy and actions of the evil one…
[17] And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he said, “Take this, and divide it among yourselves. [18] For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.” [19] And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, â??This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me."
(Luke 22:17-19 ESV)
I mean he didn’t really mean it, that Jesus, he’s such a kidder.

706

[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

What happened? How long? How old? Did you go to mass? Were you confirmed? Just kind of curious… I am always interested to hear people’s stories.

[/quote]
I guess it ended when I started actually reading the Bible when I was about 16 years old. I actually used to ride my bike to Mass by myself because my family didn’t go. I was confirmed, went to sunday school, youth group etc. [/quote]

Ah sounds like you lacked some guidance. How did your family feel about it?[/quote]

Most of them think I am still Catholic[/quote]

Honestly why did you really fall away. I just have my doubt that a 16 year old kid opens up a bible, decides to read it, reads just a bit, and then decides the whole thing is bullshit, there’s no God and is now an atheist.
Sorry I believe there’s more to the story.

707

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote: <<< I’m not sure why you’re throwing a fit, given your own admission that YOU were a a spiritually dead heretic, and despite being a spiritually dead heretic, God loved you and chose to save you over the other spiritually dead heretics that God doesn’t love. Obviously, you believe at least some spiritually dead heretics are in the mind and heart of God.
[/quote] God indeed can and does love and elect whomsoever He pleases and many truly horrific specimens have come to gloriously testify of His transforming power and grace. However, now stay with me here, He changed them in the act of saving them and they were universally well aware that it was happening. There is absolutely no such thing as Christian who does not know they are, nor is there or can there be any such thing as a heretic who is presently bound for heaven. That is another gospel which the apostle called anathema. Think with me for a second. IF that is true, how many people are in for the most eternally heartbreakingly rude awakening fathomable.

[/quote]

Yeah, because he cherry picks his saved folks the rest of us can just go to hell. So really you are on the right path because you have no choice. God already damned you, so get you a hooker and an 8-ball of cocaine and go nuts…Hell get two hookers, you weren’t one of the cool kids God picked to be on his team…
/sarcasm

708

Neither one of you gets anything even close the point I was making.

709

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Neither one of you gets anything even close the point I was making.[/quote]

I got your point perfectly.

You beat on a straw man (i.e., the idea that heretics are saved Christians) instead of addressing the actual point, which was that heretics can be in God’s heart.

710

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Neither one of you gets anything even close the point I was making.[/quote]
I was really confused by the conversation leading up to this. Was part of the issue: formal versus material heresy? Can someone explain a little clearer what the issue was on each side Chris? Tiribulus?

711

I’m at work. I’ll try later.

712

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote: <<< I’m not sure why you’re throwing a fit, given your own admission that YOU were a a spiritually dead heretic, and despite being a spiritually dead heretic, God loved you and chose to save you over the other spiritually dead heretics that God doesn’t love. Obviously, you believe at least some spiritually dead heretics are in the mind and heart of God.
[/quote] God indeed can and does love and elect whomsoever He pleases and many truly horrific specimens have come to gloriously testify of His transforming power and grace. However, now stay with me here, He changed them in the act of saving them and they were universally well aware that it was happening. There is absolutely no such thing as Christian who does not know they are, nor is there or can there be any such thing as a heretic who is presently bound for heaven. That is another gospel which the apostle called anathema. Think with me for a second. IF that is true, how many people are in for the most eternally heartbreakingly rude awakening fathomable.

[/quote]

Yeah, because he cherry picks his saved folks the rest of us can just go to hell. So really you are on the right path because you have no choice. God already damned you, so get you a hooker and an 8-ball of cocaine and go nuts…Hell get two hookers, you weren’t one of the cool kids God picked to be on his team…
/sarcasm [/quote]

…so, his unproven all-everything being doesn’t act the way you think it should. Clearly he has it wrong, and your all-everything being is the real one.

Or, you’re both just making this shit up as you go and you don’t like the shit he made up and prefer the shit you made up.

713

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Heretics after God’s heart.
[/quote]

Why would it need to be in the Bible, we have one from the first couple of centuries.

The Greeks, Justin Martyr pointed out that their pursuit for truth was the pursuit of Christians, and their pursuit of the source and their love for the source of truth was the same as our pursuit of and love for Jesus, since Jesus is truth.

The Greeks were Christians without knowing it. Von Til may have been a man after God, like the Greeks after the truth (which is Jesus), both having heretical ideas does not disqualify them from being after God.

His pursuit may have been genuine, doesn’t mean he was right. Your knowledge of heresy is a little shaky it seems. Just because someone is a heretic (depending on what it is) doesn’t disqualify them from being someone who is after the truth, Jesus.[/quote]There is just no possible way I could ever be a Catholic.
[/quote]

Why? Afraid of truth? We’re not biblical literalists, but neither are you. The difference is that we know it and you don’t. You cannot cherry pick what you want to be literal about. That which is, is, that which isn’t, isn’t. [/quote]

True, but nothing indicates that the Genesis account of creation was a story or parable of what actually happened. It was a literal event. Just saying ;)[/quote]

Jesus’s parables were allegorical, stories to make a point. Just sayin’. Are you claiming that the parables Jesus told were actual events? [/quote]

You are correct and I never said Jesus’ parables were literal events. Quite the contrary. My point was, scripture indicates when something is symbolic. If it is not pointed out as symbolic (like creation) then I take it as literal.

Is it beyond God’s capabilities to have created the world in six days? [/quote]

No, but he could have knocked it out in seconds. Hell, he can blow everything into existence instantly. Truth fully, he could have created the universe 2 seconds ago complete with us and the memories we think we have.

What he created is factually different than the story of creation. Especially, since at the beginning of the universe there was no such thing as a day, no measurement of time what so ever. So it’s technically impossible for it to be a factual account of events. Also, who ever wrote Genesis, wasn’t there and didn’t see it, nor does the story precede with “Thus says the Lord,”
What God did have back then was a lot of competition. He had to be bigger and more powerful then all the idols before him he had to make existence and the people had to understand it.
Do you know anything of the history of the region of peoples other than the Hebrews? It was a rather lively area. The Hebrews were essentially, uncouth, nomadic, simple and poor farmers. You start throwing big bangs and singularities at them and there going to melt some gold and worship a cow. You say 'God created the Heaven’s and the Earth, that makes sense. Notice they did not go into specifics, just he did it. One story has days the other just has BANG, he did it in a day so says Gen 2:4. Everybody seems to focus on the first story for the creation of the world and the second one the creation of man. But truthfully, both were created in both accounts.

What’s important is that God created it all, not that he did it in the bible 2 times 2 ways. The OT is not only a holy book but it’s also the about the accent of a people and all that goes with that.

Unless you are offering up a ram with out blemish on the alter of sacrifice, in front of the tent of the tabernacle, you ain’t no biblical literalist.

I believe the story of creation, but not like you. I believe God made everything, I believe that he made man different from every other animal and that he gave him freewill and sin entered the world through man. Genesis 1-12 bares this out.

Its definitely my favorite book of the pentateuch.

714

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote: <<< I’m not sure why you’re throwing a fit, given your own admission that YOU were a a spiritually dead heretic, and despite being a spiritually dead heretic, God loved you and chose to save you over the other spiritually dead heretics that God doesn’t love. Obviously, you believe at least some spiritually dead heretics are in the mind and heart of God.
[/quote] God indeed can and does love and elect whomsoever He pleases and many truly horrific specimens have come to gloriously testify of His transforming power and grace. However, now stay with me here, He changed them in the act of saving them and they were universally well aware that it was happening. There is absolutely no such thing as Christian who does not know they are, nor is there or can there be any such thing as a heretic who is presently bound for heaven. That is another gospel which the apostle called anathema. Think with me for a second. IF that is true, how many people are in for the most eternally heartbreakingly rude awakening fathomable.

[/quote]

Yeah, because he cherry picks his saved folks the rest of us can just go to hell. So really you are on the right path because you have no choice. God already damned you, so get you a hooker and an 8-ball of cocaine and go nuts…Hell get two hookers, you weren’t one of the cool kids God picked to be on his team…
/sarcasm [/quote]

…so, his unproven all-everything being doesn’t act the way you think it should. Clearly he has it wrong, and your all-everything being is the real one.

Or, you’re both just making this shit up as you go and you don’t like the shit he made up and prefer the shit you made up.

[/quote]

Or maybe we should just not care or try and stick with shit you make up.

715

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Neither one of you gets anything even close the point I was making.[/quote]

[EDIT]: Decided it was to harsh…I got the point, let’s just say.

716

[quote]pat wrote:

No, but he could have knocked it out in seconds. Hell, he can blow everything into existence instantly. Truth fully, he could have created the universe 2 seconds ago complete with us and the memories we think we have.[/quote]

Oh wait. You mean when you posit an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent being (without proof or willingness to test), you can make up anything you want? You can just say any damned thing and explain it with “god used god powers”?

Again, just making it up as you go.

717

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote: <<< I’m not sure why you’re throwing a fit, given your own admission that YOU were a a spiritually dead heretic, and despite being a spiritually dead heretic, God loved you and chose to save you over the other spiritually dead heretics that God doesn’t love. Obviously, you believe at least some spiritually dead heretics are in the mind and heart of God.
[/quote] God indeed can and does love and elect whomsoever He pleases and many truly horrific specimens have come to gloriously testify of His transforming power and grace. However, now stay with me here, He changed them in the act of saving them and they were universally well aware that it was happening. There is absolutely no such thing as Christian who does not know they are, nor is there or can there be any such thing as a heretic who is presently bound for heaven. That is another gospel which the apostle called anathema. Think with me for a second. IF that is true, how many people are in for the most eternally heartbreakingly rude awakening fathomable.

[/quote]

Yeah, because he cherry picks his saved folks the rest of us can just go to hell. So really you are on the right path because you have no choice. God already damned you, so get you a hooker and an 8-ball of cocaine and go nuts…Hell get two hookers, you weren’t one of the cool kids God picked to be on his team…
/sarcasm [/quote]

…so, his unproven all-everything being doesn’t act the way you think it should. Clearly he has it wrong, and your all-everything being is the real one.

Or, you’re both just making this shit up as you go and you don’t like the shit he made up and prefer the shit you made up.

[/quote]

Or maybe we should just not care or try and stick with shit you make up.[/quote]

What shit do I make up, exactly?

718

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
How there are heretics under grace.
[/quote]

Explain to me Tirib, how Von Til was under grace, and where I said that Von Til was under grace*. I said he was after truth. He held some truths of the Catholic Church and therefore holds relation to us through partial Salvific truth.

If not a formal Catholic the only sacraments and instruments of grace that one has to his advantage is baptism and Holy Matrimony. He is not able to receive the other five sacraments, until he formally comes into the Catholic Church.[/quote]In your opinion, and don’t give me this, “well only God knows the heart” crap. In YOUR opinion, to the best of your knowledge with your sacerdotal slide ruler in hand, did he go to heaven? IN YOUR OPINION, yes or know? That’s pretty much the same question as do YOU believe that if Jesus were to crack the eastern sky right now that I would go to heaven. What do YOU believe. If I were to drop dead this second, according to your vaaaaaaaast store of divine tradition, what saith the church? Come on Chris. Make a frickin stand here will ya?
[/quote]

Have no clue. I don’t know the history Von Til’s history enough to even guess where he is now. The only people I know who are in Heaven are the Saints.

719

[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]fattymcfatso wrote:

[quote]jakerz96 wrote:

What happened? How long? How old? Did you go to mass? Were you confirmed? Just kind of curious… I am always interested to hear people’s stories.

[/quote]
I guess it ended when I started actually reading the Bible when I was about 16 years old. I actually used to ride my bike to Mass by myself because my family didn’t go. I was confirmed, went to sunday school, youth group etc. [/quote]

Ah sounds like you lacked some guidance. How did your family feel about it?[/quote]

Most of them think I am still Catholic[/quote]

You ever think of going to a Spiritual Director?

720

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forbes wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Heretics after God’s heart.
[/quote]

Why would it need to be in the Bible, we have one from the first couple of centuries.

The Greeks, Justin Martyr pointed out that their pursuit for truth was the pursuit of Christians, and their pursuit of the source and their love for the source of truth was the same as our pursuit of and love for Jesus, since Jesus is truth.

The Greeks were Christians without knowing it. Von Til may have been a man after God, like the Greeks after the truth (which is Jesus), both having heretical ideas does not disqualify them from being after God.

His pursuit may have been genuine, doesn’t mean he was right. Your knowledge of heresy is a little shaky it seems. Just because someone is a heretic (depending on what it is) doesn’t disqualify them from being someone who is after the truth, Jesus.[/quote]There is just no possible way I could ever be a Catholic.
[/quote]

Why? Afraid of truth? We’re not biblical literalists, but neither are you. The difference is that we know it and you don’t. You cannot cherry pick what you want to be literal about. That which is, is, that which isn’t, isn’t. [/quote]

True, but nothing indicates that the Genesis account of creation was a story or parable of what actually happened. It was a literal event. Just saying ;)[/quote]

By, what authority do you determine if the creation story was a parable or not?[/quote]

Ummm, by guidance of the Holy Spirit? Cannot the Holy Spirit guide whom he wills? The Bible makes clear when something is just a story (as in Jesus’s parables for example). If it is not indicated as a story or symbol of another event, then I take it as literal.[/quote]

Where does it say in the Bible that you’re guided by the Holy Spirit?[/quote]

John 14:26

John 16:13â??15

1 Corinthians 2:12â??13

Ephesians 6:17

Romans 8:14

Better question. Why would God not want people to be guided by the Holy Spirit to understand scripture? Why would he limit this understanding?[/quote]

I have very little time to put a comprehensive response until after my appointments today, so just be patient, but I’ll get back to you. I have put my notes together, I just need to write it out for you.