Bible Contradictions 2.0

Off Topic Politics & World Issues
161

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Pat, your argument so far is “Something that exists outside the chain of causation in this universe created this universe and set it in motion.”

Thats it. Just…something.

And you did make all of those assertions because those are attributes of the Christian concept of God. Defend the god of your church, not “something”.[/quote]You won’t wanna hear this, but I coulda said this myself. (nuthin to do with you at all Pat)
[/quote] Oh, so you don’t believe God is the creator of all? Weird but ok, we’re obviously talking about different things.[/quote]Oh indeed I do. I also believe that He is the triune God of the Christian scriptures who reveals Himself unavoidably in every fact of the universe and little is gained in proving, as Capped here says, that merely SOMETHING bigger than us exists. Like I say, your involvement in this case is irrelevant. I’m not picking on you.

I didn’t forget about you Chris.
[/quote]

Well I am not shocked you don’t get it. One is not like the other, one is the other. God isn’t stuck in the Bible.

162

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Pat, your argument so far is “Something that exists outside the chain of causation in this universe created this universe and set it in motion.”

Thats it. Just…something.

And you did make all of those assertions because those are attributes of the Christian concept of God. Defend the god of your church, not “something”.[/quote]You won’t wanna hear this, but I coulda said this myself. (nuthin to do with you at all Pat)
[/quote] Oh, so you don’t believe God is the creator of all? Weird but ok, we’re obviously talking about different things.[/quote]Oh indeed I do. I also believe that He is the triune God of the Christian scriptures who reveals Himself unavoidably in every fact of the universe and little is gained in proving, as Capped here says, that merely SOMETHING bigger than us exists. Like I say, your involvement in this case is irrelevant. I’m not picking on you.

I didn’t forget about you Chris.
[/quote]

Well I am not shocked you don’t get it. One is not like the other, one is the other. God isn’t stuck in the Bible.[/quote]I think I just said He unavoidably reveals Himself in every fact of creation. That would exclude “stuck in the bible” as a possibility.

163

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
1st John 2:27 John writing to His “little children”

I chose this verse because even though I vehemently disagree you will try to say that Jesus’s words concerning the promise of the Holy Spirit were for the apostles only and hence the magesterium. As for how does this have anything to do with the bible? Which will be your next question? Nothing from your point of view because clearly God would never canonize an authoritative collection of scriptures (yes I know), promise the Spirit would teach John’s “little children” all things and have that include those scriptures. [/quote]

So, would you say that the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of truth?

164

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:
Pat, you can’t logically argue that everything must be caused on one hand, only to violate that very principle by stating that an uncaused cause exists. The very idea of an uncaused cause contradicts the argument that everything has a cause. Therefore, it is a logically false argument.

Now, if you want to argue that almost everything has a cause that’s fine. But then you must admit that you don’t know what has a cause and what doesn’t. As I’ve argued, it’s perfectly possible that matter and energy have always existed. You can’t prove they have a cause. In fact, the idea that something can be created out of nothing violates everything we know about the laws of conservation.[/quote]

We’re going in circles. I can logically argue the case of the Uncaused-causer because it must necessarily be true for the argument to work. If you look at the function of regression, you either end up with something or nothing, nothing violates logic, infinite regress is fallacious, there is one one answer. It’s very much like algebra in the sense that you may have unknown variables, but the answer is still true. for instance:
(w + 6)3 = 3w + 18 ← We don’t what what ‘w’ is, but this answer is correct and true.

I would argue that while it may appear to violate what we know about the laws of conservation, we don’t actually know everything about conservation.[/quote]

But Pat, your uncaused cause violates logic because it has no cause itself. Your uncaused cause is fallacious because it requires an infinite regress. You’re claiming this uncaused cause had no beginning, but insist it’s impossible for matter and energy to have had no beginning. I’m just asking for the same logical standards to be applied, whether talking about god or about matter and energy. You can’t insist matter and energy had a beginning, while claiming god had no beginning. If one theory is possible, so is the other.[/quote]

Casual relationships with infinite regression begs the question, but what moved that? Something would have to be the first mover that itself didn’t need to be moved.[/quote]

Why couldn’t that something be matter and energy?[/quote]

Perhaps it is, but have you seen matter move on it’s own power without something else moving it?[/quote]

Yes, I saw the sun rise this morning based on nothing more than natural laws… Again, the natural laws of the universe don’t require intelligence or intent to move matter.[/quote]

Natural laws? Didn’t know the sun was moved by moral laws. :wink:

I presume you mean laws of nature, well that begs the question what moves laws of nature? Something still tends to stay still.[/quote]

Laws of nature = Natural laws

I’m not sure what you mean. How could the laws of gravity, conservation, etc. be “moved”? They’re simply a description of the way the universe works.
[/quote]

Well what caused them? What made them so that is what they did?

And, what I was ribbing you for is because of this Natural Law: Natural law - Wikipedia

165

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Hey Trib why do you waste your time with that scum? You know his past, how he lives, what he truly believes in. None of it is good. He’s only on these religious threads to tear down God, the Bible and most everything that is good.

Matthew 7:6 “…Do not throw your pearls to pigs…”[/quote]

Let’s have some charity in discourse.

166

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Hey Trib why do you waste your time with that scum? You know his past, how he lives, what he truly believes in. None of it is good. He’s only on these religious threads to tear down God, the Bible and most everything that is good.

Matthew 7:6 “…Do not throw your pearls to pigs…”[/quote]

Let’s have some charity in discourse.[/quote]

Yes discourse with lots of profanity right?

167

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Hey Trib why do you waste your time with that scum? You know his past, how he lives, what he truly believes in. None of it is good. He’s only on these religious threads to tear down God, the Bible and most everything that is good.

Matthew 7:6 “…Do not throw your pearls to pigs…”[/quote]

Let’s have some charity in discourse.[/quote]

Yes discourse with lots of profanity right?
[/quote]

As long as you aren’t insulting someone what would it matter if you used a cuss word?

168

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Hey Trib why do you waste your time with that scum? You know his past, how he lives, what he truly believes in. None of it is good. He’s only on these religious threads to tear down God, the Bible and most everything that is good.

Matthew 7:6 “…Do not throw your pearls to pigs…”[/quote]

Let’s have some charity in discourse.[/quote]

Yes discourse with lots of profanity right?
[/quote]

As long as you aren’t insulting someone what would it matter if you used a cuss word?[/quote]

Yeah oooookay (eye roll)

169

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Hey Trib why do you waste your time with that scum? You know his past, how he lives, what he truly believes in. None of it is good. He’s only on these religious threads to tear down God, the Bible and most everything that is good.

Matthew 7:6 “…Do not throw your pearls to pigs…”[/quote]

Let’s have some charity in discourse.[/quote]

Yes discourse with lots of profanity right?
[/quote]

Fuck Yeah!!!

170

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]forlife wrote:<<< Jeremiah 5:

[quote]2 Although they say, “As surely as the LORD lives,”
still they are swearing falsely.[/quote][/quote]Thank you so much for more of your penetrating and reverent biblical exposition. I’ll give ya hint. That isn’t the only place the phrase occurs.
[/quote]

And I’ll give you a hint: it is a sin to take the name of the Lord in vain, and a heresy to teach falsehoods that directly contradict everything Jesus taught and died for. You are a classic example of the wolf in sheep’s clothing that the prophets warned would try to deceive the very elect. Calvin was a charlatan, and you follow him at your own peril.[/quote]What on earth could I possibly have been thinking? All that prayer and all that study when all I needed to do was ask a loud public denier of Christ. Thanks =]
[/quote]

What should bother you is that an agnostic has a better understanding of the scriptures than you do.
It’s easy to discourse with an atheist or agnostic who has no idea what he is talking about. But one who lived in faith at one time and lost it, is much more daunting. Truth is I don’t think it’s totally gone, just hidden. However, he speaks reasonably about the faith, you insult people when they don’t think like you. He doesn’t believe…

You condemn, you are wrong in doing so.

171

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:
Hey Trib why do you waste your time with that scum? You know his past, how he lives, what he truly believes in. None of it is good. He’s only on these religious threads to tear down God, the Bible and most everything that is good.

Matthew 7:6 “…Do not throw your pearls to pigs…”[/quote]

Let’s have some charity in discourse.[/quote]

Yes discourse with lots of profanity right?
[/quote]

Fuck Yeah!!!

[/quote]

Rock Chalk!

172

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< So, would you say that the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of truth?[/quote]Here we go again. I cannot possibly keep up with you (post wise). No, of course not. The church is. 1st Timothy 3:15 =] However there is no article, hence the ESV translation of A pillar etc. That doesn’t really matter though, either way the ekklesia, the assembly of the faithful (in other words the elect, in other words the invisible church) is indeed the “pillar and buttress” (ESV) of the truth. I would certainly hope so. Who else are the ambassadors of Christ in the Earth?

173

Ahh the last letter in TULIP, Perseverance of Saints. Otherwise known as once saved always saved…

It is stated as:
“This doctrine does not stand alone but is a necessary part of the Calvinistic system of theology. The doctrines of Election and Efficacious Grace logically imply the certain salvation of those who receive these blessings. If God has chosen men absolutely and unconditionally to eternal life, and if His Spirit effectively applies to them the benefits of redemption, the inescapable conclusion is that these persons shall be saved.”

I think the easiest way to put it is, ‘PURE HORSE SHIT’ but that would be vulgar. Now this depends on all the letters prior to it. And the Calvinist would argue, that if you were chosen to be saved, because of invincible grace, you could not defy God and therefore are automatically saved. Again, this orbits the whole idea behind predestination. But let’s take it as stand alone. This means in a nut shell that once you have been chosen, it’s doesn’t matter what you do, you are saved. Well, that’s crap. We have freewill, we cannot be saved once and be saved for good. One must not accept Christ as Lord and Savior once, it must be done every day. It is not good enough to say it, it must be lived everyday. When you fall you must rise. If you claim Christ, you must act like it. Jesus didn’t just say he was the Son of God, he acted like it. If he said it and did not act like it, he would have been a liar and we probably would have never heard of him.

Scriptural rebuttal to Perseverance of Saints:

  • John Chapter 3
  • John 15:1-6
  • Matthew 13:41-42
  • Acts 8:9-24
  • Romans 8:12
  • Romans 11:22
  • 1 Cor 8:11
  • 1 Cor 9:27
  • Galatians 5:2-4
  • 1 Tim 4:1
  • Hebrews 6:4-6

etc., etc., There is more I could go on and on.

174

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Who else are the ambassadors of Christ in the Earth?
[/quote]

I am. Deal with it.

175

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Pat, your argument so far is “Something that exists outside the chain of causation in this universe created this universe and set it in motion.”

Thats it. Just…something.

And you did make all of those assertions because those are attributes of the Christian concept of God. Defend the god of your church, not “something”.[/quote]

And by that we know, by necessity it must have certain unique properties. It must be eternal (in all dimensions not just time), it must sit outside the causal chain, it must be able to cause (which idicates ‘it’ posses a ‘will’ or something like it)…

These are the same properties we attribute to God in Christianity. But more it’s the same properties assigned to the main hindu God, Vishnu, muslim’s attribute the same to Allah, even the Greeks had the ‘Unknown God’ that created everything…Same dude different names. Last time I checked, God himself wasn’t a Christian. Actually, as a man he was Jewish.
Contrary to popular belief, God doesn’t just save folks of a particular church…Heck, he may have come down here, because we’re the worst in his creation not the best…Who knows? I am Catholic because I feel it’s the best way to reach him. [/quote]

So you’re arguing for deism. To be Catholic means to believe in the Catholic god, exactly, to the letter. This means you make all the claims about this god the Catholics do. All powerful, all knowing, all seeing, all loving. Don’t wiggle around saying yours Catholic god is different than someone elses catholic god - if what you believe in isn’t exactly the Catholic definition of God, you are not Catholic.

Why must it be eternal? It exists outside the chain of causation in this universe. If you had the ability to create a universe, you would seem, to the beings in that universe, to have to be eternal. Yet in this universe, you are not.

What is to say that isn’t the case with whatever “prime mover” there is?

176

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
Who else are the ambassadors of Christ in the Earth?
[/quote]I am. Deal with it.[/quote]I do so very much hope so.

177

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:

[quote]pat wrote:

[quote]CappedAndPlanIt wrote:
Pat, your argument so far is “Something that exists outside the chain of causation in this universe created this universe and set it in motion.”

Thats it. Just…something.

And you did make all of those assertions because those are attributes of the Christian concept of God. Defend the god of your church, not “something”.[/quote]

And by that we know, by necessity it must have certain unique properties. It must be eternal (in all dimensions not just time), it must sit outside the causal chain, it must be able to cause (which idicates ‘it’ posses a ‘will’ or something like it)…

These are the same properties we attribute to God in Christianity. But more it’s the same properties assigned to the main hindu God, Vishnu, muslim’s attribute the same to Allah, even the Greeks had the ‘Unknown God’ that created everything…Same dude different names. Last time I checked, God himself wasn’t a Christian. Actually, as a man he was Jewish.
Contrary to popular belief, God doesn’t just save folks of a particular church…Heck, he may have come down here, because we’re the worst in his creation not the best…Who knows? I am Catholic because I feel it’s the best way to reach him. [/quote]

So you’re arguing for deism. To be Catholic means to believe in the Catholic god, exactly, to the letter. This means you make all the claims about this god the Catholics do. All powerful, all knowing, all seeing, all loving. Don’t wiggle around saying yours Catholic god is different than someone elses catholic god - if what you believe in isn’t exactly the Catholic definition of God, you are not Catholic.

Why must it be eternal? It exists outside the chain of causation in this universe. If you had the ability to create a universe, you would seem, to the beings in that universe, to have to be eternal. Yet in this universe, you are not.

What is to say that isn’t the case with whatever “prime mover” there is? [/quote]

There is not such thing as a ‘Catholic God’. God is God, Catholicism is a way to reach out to him. Biblically, that is to say via divine revelation, he established it himself.
God must be the eternal Uncaused-causer, if he is not, then he lied. But he is, and I don’t need the bible or religion to prove it. I am a deist in the purest sense that that all that exists, leads back to it in origin.
When you break things down generically, they always lead to the same source. As you break things down, they get more similar this continues to the point of a single similarity. It is inevitable.
The difference between me and others is you don’t have to believe me or take my word for it. do your own research, work on it yourself and you will see.
A proper, formal, secular education assisted me in this understanding. But I don’t own it, I stole it. It doesn’t really matter because it is just fact and that’s all that matters.

178

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:

[quote]Brother Chris wrote:<<< So, would you say that the Bible is the pillar and bulwark of truth?[/quote]Here we go again. I cannot possibly keep up with you (post wise). No, of course not. The church is. 1st Timothy 3:15 =] However there is no article, hence the ESV translation of A pillar etc. That doesn’t really matter though, either way the ekklesia, the assembly of the faithful (in other words the elect, in other words the invisible church) is indeed the “pillar and buttress” (ESV) of the truth. I would certainly hope so. Who else are the ambassadors of Christ in the Earth?
[/quote]

How is someone supposed to find the true Church if it is invisible?

179

[quote]pat wrote:

God must be the eternal Uncaused-causer, if he is not, then he lied. [/quote]

Or, “he” doesnt exist, so “he” didn’t say anything, and the people who made claims about what “he” said were either lying or on drugs… and the origin of creation is still filed under “we dont know”, not “…therefore, Yahweh.”

180

[quote]pat wrote:

Damn it people, let’s argue points and not personal attacks. We were doing so good. Kiss and make up…
[/quote]

I’d tell him to kiss my butt…but he would!