Best Supplement for Mass

Laroyal,
Could you explain to me the process by which leucine is anabolic and anti-catabolic. As you, Thib and Berardi strongly reccomend its use for mass gains I might as well trust it as a strong support for my solid diet. The thing is that I am into learning not only practical issues but also the intelectual so I would be happy to know the biological process by which leucine helps…

Sorry for asking so many questions; its that you are a helpful and trustful source of information here in T-Nation and I see you have no problem helping out people who are wanting new info to help them gain mass. Excluding Thibs, you are one of the only people who posts regularly in T-Nation forums who is actually knowledgable and isnt a rude cocky bastard.

BTW, I’ve done my math and it would be 90 bucks for 12 weeks… REALLY worth it?.. (considering that training, recovery and diet are fine for hypertrophy), what should I expect?

Here is a summary of why Jose’ Antonio explaining why leucine is so beneficial:

In the protein category, there are amino acids that are unique in their own right. They�??re the branched-chain amino acids (valine, leucine, and isoleucine). Of the three, BCAA leucine is very important. Here�??s why.

A recent study looked at the effects of dietary leucine supplementation on the exercise performance of outrigger canoeists. Thirteen (10 female, three male) competitive outrigger canoeists underwent testing before and after six-week supplementation with either capsulated L-leucine (45 mg/kg.d, which is equal to 3.15 grams of leucine for a 154 lb individual) or placebo (corn flour). Testing included anthropometry, 10-second upper-body power and work and a row to exhaustion at 70-75% maximal aerobic power where perceived exertion (RPE), heart rate (HR) and plasma BCAA and tryptophan concentrations were assessed.

What happened?

Leucine supplementation resulted in significant increases in plasma leucine and total BCAA concentrations. Upper body power and work significantly increased in both groups after supplementation but power was significantly greater after leucine supplementation compared to the placebo.

Rowing time significantly increased and average RPE significantly decreased with leucine supplementation while these variables were unchanged with the placebo. Leucine supplementation had no effect on the plasma tryptophan to BCAA ratio, HR or anthropometric variables. Six weeks’ dietary leucine supplementation significantly improved endurance performance and upper body power in outrigger canoeists.[1] As an amateur outrigger canoeist myself, I can testify to the benefits of the essential aminos, especially leucine!

During exercise, muscle protein synthesis decreases together with a net increase in protein degradation and stimulation of BCAA oxidation (the BCAAs are of course leucine, valine and isoleucine). The decrease in protein synthesis is associated with inhibition of translation initiation factors 4E and 4G and ribosomal protein S6 which are under regulatory controls of intracellular insulin signaling and leucine concentrations. In essence, both insulin and leucine are key regulators in muscle protein synthesis![2]

Another interesting tidbit is that leucine by itself increases muscle protein synthesis.[3] By combing leucine with protein and carbohydrate, you get quite the anabolic super-effect.

For example, in one study eight male subjects were randomly assigned to three trials in which they consumed drinks containing either carbohydrate (CHO), carbohydrate and protein (CHO+PRO), or carbohydrate, protein, and free leucine (CHO+PRO+Leu) following 45 min of resistance exercise. They discovered that plasma insulin response was higher in the CHO+PRO+Leu compared with the CHO and CHO+PRO trials. Whole body protein breakdown rates were lower, and whole body protein synthesis rates were higher, in the CHO+PRO and CHO+PRO+Leu trials compared with the CHO trial; moreover, the addition of leucine in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial resulted in a lower protein oxidation rate compared with the CHO+PRO trial.

And to top it off, muscle protein synthesis, measured over a 6-h period of post-exercise recovery, was significantly greater in the CHO+PRO+Leu trial compared with the CHO trial with intermediate values observed in the CHO+PRO trial.[4]

Leucine. It does the body good.

If you are interested in the sources for his research:

Crowe, M.J., J.N. Weatherson, and B.F. Bowden, Effects of dietary leucine supplementation on exercise performance. Eur J Appl Physiol, 2005: p. 1-9.
Norton, L.E. and D.K. Layman, Leucine regulates translation initiation of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle after exercise. J Nutr, 2006. 136(2): p. 533S-537S.
Lang, C.H., Elevated Plasma Free Fatty Acids Decrease Basal Protein Synthesis but Not the Anabolic Effect of Leucine in Skeletal Muscle. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, 2006.
Koopman, R., et al., Combined ingestion of protein and free leucine with carbohydrate increases post-exercise muscle protein synthesis in vivo in male subjects. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab, 2005. 288(4): p. E645-53.

In terms of dose here is the base:

minimum daily requirement = 16mg/kg bodyweight

To answer your question about is it worth it, in all fairness I simply can’t. Everyone has unique genetics and different levels of response to different supplements. I would spend money on good food before I considered leucine and furthermore, something as simple as waxy maize and whey isolate or surge would be higher on my list too. Is Leucine a great addition to a supplement program? YES! Is it going to deliver steroid like results? NO! I don’t mean to be vauge but, it is simply not possible to tell you you are going to gain “x” lbs if you take this or that. It definatly helps but, as previously stated make sure your nutrition, training and basics are in order first. Hope that helps.

It does, thanks.

What is waxy maize?

[quote]Player wrote:
What is waxy maize?[/quote]

Waxy Maize is a type of HMW carbohydrate. Here is a little bit more about what HMW carbs are and how they can help you:

High Molecular Weight Carbohydrates
Written by Justin Harris

It has been standard practice for many years for serious athletes to consume a high-carbohydrate meal following intense exercise. As time has gone on, this post-exercise meal has been scrutinized and analyzed to make sure that the correct type of carbohydrates are eaten to maximize the replacement of glycogen lost during exercise.

Following exercise-induced depletion of glycogen stores, levels of the enzyme glycogen synthetase become elevated. This very important metabolic enzyme enables the body to replace lost muscle and liver glycogen. Typical rates of glycogen re-synthesis after short term, high-intensity exercise (i.e. weightlifting) are much higher than glycogen re-synthesis rates following prolonged, lower intensity exercise. This is largely due to the fact that fast twitch muscle fibers, which are the predominantly used during short term, high intensity exercise, have a higher level of glycogen synthetase activity than slow-twitch fibers. (4) What this means is that the body has a greater need (and a greater ability) to restore depleted glycogen stores following short term, high intensity training.

Studies show that delaying the ingestion of a carbohydrate supplement post-exercise results in a reduced rate of muscle glycogen storage. (3) Because of this fact, it’s common to ingest a sugary carbohydrate source following exercise. The Glycemic Index (GI) gives a number to carbohydrates based on how quickly they enter the blood stream. The higher the GI, the quicker it will enter the bloodstream and raise insulin levels. The highest GI food is glucose, with a score of 100. One particular form of glucose (D-glucose, aka Dextrose) quickly became the post-workout carbohydrate of choice based on the speed with which it enters the bloodstream and raises insulin levels. It’s important to understand that not all sugars are created equal. For example, fructose (or fruit sugar) rapidly restores liver glycogen levels at the expense of muscle glycogen stores. The bottom line is that it’s important to ingest quick-acting carbohydrates to begin the repair and rebuilding process.

What if there was a way to improve this practice?

Recently, a new player has emerged in the post-workout carbohydrate war: High molecular weight carbohydrates. High molecular weight carbohydrates (HMW) have shown great promise in providing a wide range of post-workout benefits.

The words most often thrown around when talking about HMW carbohydrates are “gastric emptying” and “osmolality.” These terms essentially go hand in hand with each other. Osmolality, often confused with osmolarity, affects the transport of water and other solutes over the cell membranes. (10) Osmolality is related to the specific osmolality of the blood, which is 280-303 mOsm/kg in humans. A solute that has the same osmolality of blood is said to be isotonic while a solute that has a lower osmolality than blood is hypotonic. The more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine where the bulk of nutrient uptake occurs. (11) A very low osmolality means the solution will get to your muscles with great speed and efficiency.

The higher the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the lower its osmolality. The lower the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the higher its osmolality. Therefore, a carbohydrate’s molecular weight varies inversely to its osmolality. Knowing this, you can begin to appreciate the difference between HMW carbohydrates and dextrose. The molecular weight of the typical HMW carbohydrate that is marketed today has a molecular weight of 500,000-700,000; whereas, the molecular weight of dextrose is approximately 180. (11) This statistic helps quantify the difference between the two carbohydrate sources. The osmolality of a particular HMW carbohydrate is 11 mOsm/kg in a 5% solution, which is considerably lower than the osmolality of blood at 300 mOsm/kg. With an osmolality that low, the HMW carbohydrate is extremely hypotonic, and we know that the more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine.(11) This means that in the world of carbohydrates, the HMW carbohydrate is a Ferrari Enzo, and dextrose is your mother’s Buick Skylark.

In fact, one popular HMW carbohydrate drink has been shown to pass through the stomach 80% faster than dextrose, allowing restoration of glycogen 70% faster than any other carbohydrate. (13) How would you like to like to start rebuilding muscle 70% sooner than you already are after a workout?

One particular study showed that the mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher for a HMW carbohydrate drink compared to a glucose drink for 2 whole hours after ingestion. The scientists in the study concluded that “the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of re-synthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise.”(6) In essence, the scientists are saying that HMW carbohydrate will get to your muscles significantly faster than whatever carbohydrate you’re currently using."

Another study that observed glycogen synthesis rates in rats following starvation showed that HMW glycogen was initially synthesized at a faster rate than low molecular weight glycogen. (8) However, blood sugar and insulin levels were not statistically different between the HMW carbohydrate and the glucose solution. What this means is that despite being a complex carbohydrate, the HMW carbohydrate still raised insulin levels to about the same level as dextrose. We’re dealing with a complex carbohydrate that powers through the stomach, causing no bloating, and reaches the blood stream as fast as dextrose; yet, it restores glycogen 70% faster.

Does it sound too good to be true? It gets better.

The osmolality of HMW carbohydrates can potentially speed up the rate of glycogen synthesis post-workout, as well as increase the uptake of whatever vital nutrients are added to the HMW carbohydrate drink. That’s right, all the “stuff” you’ve been ingesting after your workout, in the hopes of getting it to the muscle as quickly as possible, can be sucked up right along with the HMW carbohydrate, faster than ever before. The only problem is that amino-based nutrients such as whey protein, Amino Acids, and Creatine all have a much lower molecular weight than the HMW carbohydrate; therefore, when adding other nutrients into the drink mix, you must consider the effect they will have on the total molecular weight of the solution. In theory, too much protein, Creatine, and other nutrients will reduce the effectiveness-specifically the speed–of the HMW drink.

For this very reason, it’s my belief that added amino-based nutrients should be kept to a minimum during ingestion of a HMW carbohydrate drink. My post workout recommendation for a 200 lb bodybuilder would be 75g of a HMW carbohydrate mixed with 5g Creatine, 8g L-leucine, and 5-10g of BCAA’s. This meal should be followed, approximately 15-30 minutes later, with a meal containing protein and complex carbohydrates; preferably a fast-digesting liquid protein such as a whey isolate, and some complex carbohydrates.

If you understand the composition of muscle, you’ll see that there’s much more to it than just contractile tissue. Don’t forget the water, stored glycogen, minerals, blood vessels, and capillaries. By employing HMW carbohydrate powders, carbohydrate reserves can be quickly replenished, along with water and any other cell volumizing nutrients you consume along with it. Remember, faster glycogen restoration decreases catabolism and increases the rate of protein synthesis. And as an additional cosmetic benefit, the extra glycogen and water will create full, round-bellied, muscles that will be the envy of all your bodybuilding friends!

laroyal:

So what about the assertion by Dave Barr (in an article about post-workout myths) that the need to replenish glycogen as fast as possible is overrated?

He says that between two workout sessions, there is plenty of time to consume carbs and replenish glycogen, and that the most important factor in increasing muscle protein synthesis (I think that this was the reason) is a high intake of protein, especially in the form of two PWO shakes, from a fast digesting protein like whey hydrolysate.

I have read about waxy maize and considered using it, but what is the difference for individuals over 15% in using say 20g waxy maize in the PWO drink vs. 20g l-glutamine? Do they not achieve the same result?

Someone should post that Alan Aragorn analysis of research showing the superiority of whey/casein blend proteins (in the study, I believe whole milk was used) on muscle protein synthesis vs. whey or even whey hydrolysate.

There’s just so much conflicting info that I question the impact of the minor details (e.g. whey vs casein vs hydrolysates) in the long run.

Thanks for that info.

[quote]PonceDeLeon wrote:
laroyal:

So what about the assertion by Dave Barr (in an article about post-workout myths) that the need to replenish glycogen as fast as possible is overrated?

He says that between two workout sessions, there is plenty of time to consume carbs and replenish glycogen, and that the most important factor in increasing muscle protein synthesis (I think that this was the reason) is a high intake of protein, especially in the form of two PWO shakes, from a fast digesting protein like whey hydrolysate.

I have read about waxy maize and considered using it, but what is the difference for individuals over 15% in using say 20g waxy maize in the PWO drink vs. 20g l-glutamine? Do they not achieve the same result?

Someone should post that Alan Aragorn analysis of research showing the superiority of whey/casein blend proteins (in the study, I believe whole milk was used) on muscle protein synthesis vs. whey or even whey hydrolysate.

There’s just so much conflicting info that I question the impact of the minor details (e.g. whey vs casein vs hydrolysates) in the long run.

Thanks for that info.[/quote]

Let me start by saying I have all the respect for Dave Barr in the world, infact I have been in correspondance with him regarding my latest diet idea and some feedback (see my post in Alpha). That said, I respectfully disagree.

I believe in pre/during AND post workout supplementation. Clearly what he does works well for him and his cients, I will just point out that there is more than one way to accomplish a particular goal and his results are within the confines of his system as are my results within the confines of mine.

To answer your question about 20grams of waxy maize, it is important to ralize that it’s effect is due to its molecular weight and if it is taken in as part of a solution (with bcaa’s whey or whatever) this can alter the molecular weight and it’s absorption. It should be about 66-75%of the solution so if you were using 20 grams you would only be alotted 5grams of other stuff (not very effective).

For individuals over 10-12% I prefer to use a combination of glycine,glutamine, and whey isolate post-workout. Also, compairing waxy maize to glutamine is like comparing apples and oranges, one is an amino acid and the other is a high molecular weight carbohydrate. Hope this helps!

[quote]laroyal wrote:
Player wrote:
What is waxy maize?

Waxy Maize is a type of HMW carbohydrate. Here is a little bit more about what HMW carbs are and how they can help you:

High Molecular Weight Carbohydrates
Written by Justin Harris

It has been standard practice for many years for serious athletes to consume a high-carbohydrate meal following intense exercise. As time has gone on, this post-exercise meal has been scrutinized and analyzed to make sure that the correct type of carbohydrates are eaten to maximize the replacement of glycogen lost during exercise.

Following exercise-induced depletion of glycogen stores, levels of the enzyme glycogen synthetase become elevated. This very important metabolic enzyme enables the body to replace lost muscle and liver glycogen.

Typical rates of glycogen re-synthesis after short term, high-intensity exercise (i.e. weightlifting) are much higher than glycogen re-synthesis rates following prolonged, lower intensity exercise.

This is largely due to the fact that fast twitch muscle fibers, which are the predominantly used during short term, high intensity exercise, have a higher level of glycogen synthetase activity than slow-twitch fibers. (4) What this means is that the body has a greater need (and a greater ability) to restore depleted glycogen stores following short term, high intensity training.

Studies show that delaying the ingestion of a carbohydrate supplement post-exercise results in a reduced rate of muscle glycogen storage. (3) Because of this fact, it’s common to ingest a sugary carbohydrate source following exercise.

The Glycemic Index (GI) gives a number to carbohydrates based on how quickly they enter the blood stream. The higher the GI, the quicker it will enter the bloodstream and raise insulin levels. The highest GI food is glucose, with a score of 100.

One particular form of glucose (D-glucose, aka Dextrose) quickly became the post-workout carbohydrate of choice based on the speed with which it enters the bloodstream and raises insulin levels. It’s important to understand that not all sugars are created equal.

For example, fructose (or fruit sugar) rapidly restores liver glycogen levels at the expense of muscle glycogen stores. The bottom line is that it’s important to ingest quick-acting carbohydrates to begin the repair and rebuilding process.

What if there was a way to improve this practice?

Recently, a new player has emerged in the post-workout carbohydrate war: High molecular weight carbohydrates. High molecular weight carbohydrates (HMW) have shown great promise in providing a wide range of post-workout benefits.

The words most often thrown around when talking about HMW carbohydrates are “gastric emptying” and “osmolality.” These terms essentially go hand in hand with each other.

Osmolality, often confused with osmolarity, affects the transport of water and other solutes over the cell membranes. (10) Osmolality is related to the specific osmolality of the blood, which is 280-303 mOsm/kg in humans.

A solute that has the same osmolality of blood is said to be isotonic while a solute that has a lower osmolality than blood is hypotonic.

The more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine where the bulk of nutrient uptake occurs. (11) A very low osmolality means the solution will get to your muscles with great speed and efficiency.

The higher the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the lower its osmolality. The lower the molecular weight of a carbohydrate, the higher its osmolality.

Therefore, a carbohydrate’s molecular weight varies inversely to its osmolality. Knowing this, you can begin to appreciate the difference between HMW carbohydrates and dextrose.

The molecular weight of the typical HMW carbohydrate that is marketed today has a molecular weight of 500,000-700,000; whereas, the molecular weight of dextrose is approximately 180. (11)

This statistic helps quantify the difference between the two carbohydrate sources. The osmolality of a particular HMW carbohydrate is 11 mOsm/kg in a 5% solution, which is considerably lower than the osmolality of blood at 300 mOsm/kg.

With an osmolality that low, the HMW carbohydrate is extremely hypotonic, and we know that the more hypotonic a solution is, the quicker it passes through the stomach into the small intestine.(11) This means that in the world of carbohydrates, the HMW carbohydrate is a Ferrari Enzo, and dextrose is your mother’s Buick Skylark.

In fact, one popular HMW carbohydrate drink has been shown to pass through the stomach 80% faster than dextrose, allowing restoration of glycogen 70% faster than any other carbohydrate. (13) How would you like to like to start rebuilding muscle 70% sooner than you already are after a workout?

One particular study showed that the mean glycogen synthesis rate was significantly higher for a HMW carbohydrate drink compared to a glucose drink for 2 whole hours after ingestion.

The scientists in the study concluded that “the osmolality of the carbohydrate drink may influence the rate of re-synthesis of glycogen in muscle after its depletion by exercise.”(6) In essence, the scientists are saying that HMW carbohydrate will get to your muscles significantly faster than whatever carbohydrate you’re currently using."

Another study that observed glycogen synthesis rates in rats following starvation showed that HMW glycogen was initially synthesized at a faster rate than low molecular weight glycogen.

(8) However, blood sugar and insulin levels were not statistically different between the HMW carbohydrate and the glucose solution. What this means is that despite being a complex carbohydrate, the HMW carbohydrate still raised insulin levels to about the same level as dextrose.

We’re dealing with a complex carbohydrate that powers through the stomach, causing no bloating, and reaches the blood stream as fast as dextrose; yet, it restores glycogen 70% faster.

Does it sound too good to be true? It gets better.

The osmolality of HMW carbohydrates can potentially speed up the rate of glycogen synthesis post-workout, as well as increase the uptake of whatever vital nutrients are added to the HMW carbohydrate drink.

That’s right, all the “stuff” you’ve been ingesting after your workout, in the hopes of getting it to the muscle as quickly as possible, can be sucked up right along with the HMW carbohydrate, faster than ever before.

The only problem is that amino-based nutrients such as whey protein, Amino Acids, and Creatine all have a much lower molecular weight than the HMW carbohydrate; therefore, when adding other nutrients into the drink mix, you must consider the effect they will have on the total molecular weight of the solution.

In theory, too much protein, Creatine, and other nutrients will reduce the effectiveness-specifically the speed–of the HMW drink.

For this very reason, it’s my belief that added amino-based nutrients should be kept to a minimum during ingestion of a HMW carbohydrate drink. My post workout recommendation for a 200 lb bodybuilder would be 75g of a HMW carbohydrate mixed with 5g Creatine, 8g L-leucine, and 5-10g of BCAA’s.

This meal should be followed, approximately 15-30 minutes later, with a meal containing protein and complex carbohydrates; preferably a fast-digesting liquid protein such as a whey isolate, and some complex carbohydrates.

If you understand the composition of muscle, you’ll see that there’s much more to it than just contractile tissue. Don’t forget the water, stored glycogen, minerals, blood vessels, and capillaries.

By employing HMW carbohydrate powders, carbohydrate reserves can be quickly replenished, along with water and any other cell volumizing nutrients you consume along with it. Remember, faster glycogen restoration decreases catabolism and increases the rate of protein synthesis.

And as an additional cosmetic benefit, the extra glycogen and water will create full, round-bellied, muscles that will be the envy of all your bodybuilding friends!
[/quote]

Sounds great Laroyal. 23$ for 6lbs in BN. Seems pretty cheap. Have you used it (with good results)?

Let me see, so it is a kind of carb that will be absorbed really fast, therefore it will replenish glycogen stores post exercise fast and even help other nutrients come in the muscle faster and better… The downside is that when you’re taking too many other nutrients (protein; aminos) together it wont be absorbed that fast.

Im 5’6, 163 lb and lean. So immediatly after a workout I should ingest about 50-60 grams of Waxy Maize and about 10-15 of leucine together, then wait about 30 min and drink the standard whey shake?

[quote]laroyal wrote:

For individuals over 10-12% I prefer to use a combination of glycine,glutamine, and whey isolate post-workout. Also, compairing waxy maize to glutamine is like comparing apples and oranges, one is an amino acid and the other is a high molecular weight carbohydrate. Hope this helps![/quote]

It was a big help, but maybe I am being dense; I still don’t get why glycine/glutamine is better than a HMW carb like waxy maize for glycogen replenishment.

I know one is an amino acid (glutamine) and WM is a carb, but they are both used in replenishing glycogen, so why is glutamine superior to WM for individuals over a certain body fat?

You are very knowledgeable and I always appreciate you chiming in, but I don’t think ANYONE here has ever really clarified this, even any of the authors.

So far, it just sounds as if people are parroting something Poliquin once said, without ever giving a good explanation why is preferential (glutamine vs. carbs PWO).

Perfect maybe add 7grams eaa’s! With the whey I would take an equal amount of carbs. Waxy maize is awesome! I digest it well and look “full” when I use it. For the second shake I would do 40grams whey isolate and 20grams malto/20grams d-glucose